The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Lack of respect in our industry for formal music or technical traininng.... Dynamics Plugins
Old 16th August 2007
  #31
Viking
 
Bruce Swedien's Avatar
 

To respect someone who has put forth the energy.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O View Post
Indeed the broader point might be 'respect for knowledge'; regardless of how it is attained.
Mike......

I think the broader point might be to respect someone who has put forth the energy and dedication to aquire the knowledge.....

Many folks in our industry seem to resent that.....

Bruce
Old 16th August 2007
  #32
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
The Beatles would have been a shadow of what they became had it not been for the formally trained guidance of Sir George Martin.

'Nuff said.
Old 16th August 2007
  #33
Lives for gear
 
heathen's Avatar
 

I believe the value of a learned lesson has dropped too near nothing in value for some people, a lot of younger people these days (not all) just don't know how to learn.

When we were younger there was no internet, we had to find the info to read, we had to try to attend sessions to try to learn, I went to an Aussie audio school which gave me a good basic understanding of signal flow, equipment uses and most of all using correct levels in tracking and mixing, this was about 12 years ago.

The way a lot seem to try and learn these days is by asking a question on a forum before usually even attempting to solve the problem themselves.

Also even trying to converse with someone who is constantly looking at thier phone and pressing buttons is near impossible, it's like a thumb to suck on. You feel like grabbing it from them and throwing the piece of junk out the window. But yeah then if you say anything to them they don't like your an arsehole for trying to set them straight.

The next punk who says to me "My bad" when they screw up or do something stupid is gonna cop a smack in the head just so I can say um "my bad".



As for musicianship, its easy to pick a fake.
Old 16th August 2007
  #34
Lives for gear
 
Empire Prod's Avatar
 

I believe it was the great George Gershwin who said "The most important thing to remember about musical theory, is to forget it".

I'm not saying I agree with that, but it is an interesting perspective considering the source.
Old 16th August 2007
  #35
Lives for gear
 
heathen's Avatar
 

Some people need music training and it works sometimes, but you have to be born with a desire and ability to write great music.

Look at some autistic savants, now they don't get any training except from what they take in.
Old 16th August 2007
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post

A-Why?(Explain)

B-I have a lot of respect for formal musical and technical training.
Question A - Perhaps because the people doing hiring of recording engineers & producers, themselves dont have a lot of formal training?

Some of the most celebrated A&R people were said to have piloted some of the biggest record labels swinging from the chandeliers as high as a kite on booze drugs and whatever..! I never did get the feeling there was a link between A&R and high education. Don't get me wrong I belive there were some true 'gents' at the top of the industry tree and perhaps some of them WERE educated to university level, but was Sam Phillips? Was Berry Gordy? It was explained to me once, (perhaps incorrectly, that while American Football players always came up from schools & colleges, it was possible for a baseball player to wander in from out of NOWHERE and get put on a team.... Perhaps a lot of us recording engineers & producers are like that?

Perhaps a repeat case of - "I dunno where the hell he came from, but he can do the work better than anyone else we have had! - So Lets hire him!"

I don't mean to cheapen education, just trying to think of answers here..

Statement B - So do I! I admire producers that can play a lot of instruments, deeply understand harmony, chord structures & scales. Hats off to these people. I have trained a lot of assistant engineer to become engineers, but I myself couldn't do an tape deck azimuth set up with an oscilloscope or trouble shoot a circuit board. Not being able to play piano TICKS ME OFF!

Best wishes,

Jules
Old 16th August 2007
  #37
Lives for gear
 
eightyeightkeys's Avatar
In this business, you've got to have determination out the wazzoo, gobs of discipline, talent, connections help and an education doesn't hurt.

I've got my B.Mus. Honours Performance Piano degree in classical piano, but, I don't ever remember showing up for a session and someone asking me if I had a degree. It just didn't happen. Just sit down and play man.

But, a degree is representative of a great deal of formal training - in my case from some incredibly talented people. Touring concert pianists teaching you each and every week - Master classes from guest artists...these people have also had formal training from many, so the information compounds itself as it's passed on. Arranging, composition, history on a very high level...man, that stuff just doesn't hurt, and, in my opinion, it was worth every moment and every penny spent. Why anyone in their right mind would poo-poo that is beyond me. Maybe some are intimidated and feel a need to puff up like a dummy Grouse in the woods.

The other great thing is that you accumulate all this wealth of knowledge passed down to you and then you pass it on through lessons to others.

I feel that this is also where pop musicians now, today, are really lacking. They haven't absorbed enough great music from the past to produce great music today. Superficial. Empty. Formulaic drivel.
Old 16th August 2007
  #38
Lives for gear
 
Barish's Avatar
Hello sir. Always a pleasure to coin our 2 cents in your way, as we have enjoyed the top dollar bills that came out of the records you've made throughout our upbringing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Traditionally, many in our industry have had little respect for formal music or technical training.

A-Why?(Explain)
Simple.

1) It is one of those rare professions the practice of which is not subject to a licence and is not regulated by an authority.

2) Those who got to where they are now by cutting their teeth in toilet pans in studios just don't want a smart ar*se with a degree jumping over and telling them what to do all of a sudden. Nobody wants to be threatened in what they do for a living.

3) Majority of the institutions that offer a "formal training" in technical and artistic branches are money-grabbing farce bodies, churning out more graduates than the entire world population would ever need for another 50 years if they stopped sending them out NOW, that the value of the profession is down to a thousand for a penny. It's like "everyone has that diploma, didn't you know? Even my tone deaf sister has one. Look what persistence can bring you."

And a v-e-r-y few that offer a standard that's worth considering can not get the respect they deserve because of this very low signal-to-noise ratio.

4) In an area where being new and "cost effective" is more important than being good in most situations, it's hard to convince anyone that they have to hire formally-trained people in order to meet a certain standard. What is "the standard" anyway? A standard has been done before. Art is about doing what hasn't been done before, and even though we all sound like somebody else eventually, we like to think that we have done something unique and whoever says that we sound like somebody else, that person is not getting a Christmas card from us.

Most of the clients (artists) are not formally trained in what they do. They don't know anything about the necessity of formal training in what they do involves. They do not care.


Quote:
B-I have a lot of respect for formal musical and technical training.

I identify with totally involved musicians. Do you????

I think that discriminating listeners have highly developed critical listening skills.

What do YOU THINK????

Bruce Swedien
I have a huge respect for trained musicians, for I wanted to be one when I was young but life drifted me into different avenues. I ended up being a composing performing musician again and I have always thought I could have been so much better in what I do now had I had the chance to go and study a proper singing and double bass.

HOWEVER...

Talent is a totally diferent thing, and I have been aware of the reality that there are certain things in arts that can not be acquired by just studying. One either has it, or doesn't. If you are given one, you can excel on it and be a distinctive artist. If you don't have it, the best you can be is another civil servant player in an orchestra, reproducing what's already written for you for life.

Seen so many cracking formally trained musicians with perfect playing techniques having no technical handicaps on their instrument whatsoever, capable of playing things that I couldn't dream of me playing them in my wildest dreams, yet, they couldn't come up with one single original phrase of their own when needed. They had to be told what to play, otherwise they were pretty much useless. Dummy. Organ playing japanese robots.

I realize that, by having no formal training BUT being a self-trained music maker, I had the comfort of not feeling obliged to conform to any theory in music. I just wrote and played whatever I felt, and as long as it felt good, it didn't matter whether they sounded pitchy or flat or sloppy. On the other hand, it took me years and a coincidence to a formally trained AND gifted composing musician to find out that if I had a formal education in music, I could have been a much better composer/performer/possibly a producer because he showed me a few things on a piano keyboard that opened my horizons in songwriting and cleared what was a big fog before my eyes until then.

So I believe a separation must be made when talking about the essence of formal training in music, in what capacity we are talking about.

Basic understanding of how the mechanics of sound, instruments and recording equipment work is, on the other hand, is a must if one is to call themselves a musicmaker.

B.
Old 16th August 2007
  #39
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Gearlutz....


Traditionally, many in our industry have had little respect for formal music or technical training.

A-Why?(Explain)

B-I have a lot of respect for formal musical and technical training.

I identify with totally involved musicians. Do you????

I think that discriminating listeners have highly developed critical listening skills.

What do YOU THINK????
"Traditionally, many in our industry have had little respect for formal music or technical training.

A: Why?"

Chances are the majority of the upper management team at their label consists of people with MBAs. You kmow, the extremely educated geniuses that are totally - completely - absolutely - and always focused on one thing and one thing only, the next quarter's results. Even if that means never giving a band more than one chance to make it. The MBA program has told them it has to be that way.

And of course since the MBAs got hired because of their degrees, not their love of music, it's very likely that these MBAs will favor those possesing formal, accredited, credentials in virtually all hiring decisions. Long term prospects be damned - it's all about the quarter, baby! That and, of course, job security. So what if the new hire fails - that won't matter. In much the same spirit as the sentiment, "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" the MBA in the middle can sleep soundly knowing that nobody at a major label gets fired for hiring a person with a prestigious degree.

"B-I have a lot of respect for formal musical and technical training."

Sometimes, I do too - at least for the type of music that benefits from such training. But when I look back on my first music class in junior high school in Oklahoma City, I still recall the enormous amount of time devoted to teaching us about Gluck and Lully. At the same time, not a single word was said about Charlie Christian (and this was in his own home town). Neither Hank Williams nor Hank Thompson (he was huge in Oklahoma) was mentioned as well.

And sadly, even those that are highly trained have a hard time these days. I used to help set-up PA for an orchestra that played Sousa and operetta, and the gigs went away. Not enough country clubs and townships would hire the orchestra.

"I identify with totally involved musicians. Do you????"

It's tough for a musician to be totally involved after working all day at a 'real' job. But hey, at least they are probably working for a corporation with a lot of MBAs in charge.

Isn't it the degree-sporting people that have created a music industry where the song is the least important part of the package?

best,

john
Old 16th August 2007
  #40
Lives for gear
 
hogo's Avatar
 

Never let school interfere with your education.

-Samuel Clemens
Old 17th August 2007
  #41
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 

i think in any form of music a education can only help!
i see so many musicians, ( as already mentioned ) if you have some training it seems you are looked at strangely.
so many really good musicians out their that have no clue as to what their potential could be if they had evan a small amount of music education in theory, and that holds true for the engineer and producers as well.
a education in music theory will simple allow one to better communicate and as well understand what is being communicated:(
great question!
Old 17th August 2007
  #42
Lives for gear
 
Barish's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogo View Post
Never let school interfere with your education.

-Samuel Clemens
One needs to have a fair understanding of what they are opposing to in order to be taken seriously in their protest, so I believe school is a very important aspect of the whole learning process that must be participated in life one way or another, in whichever form it may be.

You can not deny and get out of the templates if you have never had any imposed on you.

B.
Old 17th August 2007
  #43
Gear Addict
 
AudioFocus's Avatar
 

Bruce,

I completely understand where you are comming from. I was actively recording for 9 years before going to SAE here in Nashville. Now whenever this fact comes up in conversation I either get blasted, or just get some weird looks from my peers.

I think that education in our industry is very important. I believe where most people have the problem is the quality of the instrction. After going to SAE and dealing with all that entails I can understand some peoples resentment to these types of schools.

Meanwhile, I have been reading over my brother's course material from Belmont and all I can say is wow. There is a program that really goes in depth, whereas programs like SAE you pay tuition and they pass you.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it's not education per se, but the type and depth of the education.

Always be learning,
AudioFocus
Old 17th August 2007
  #44
Lives for gear
 
gsilbers's Avatar
 

its jealousy...

and that way we can get the gigs!!

we will say, "he studied in so and so and masters in so and so but he doest have the "feeling"....he is too technical"

i guess nowadays we can quantize a bad player but we cant un-quantize a good one..

partly joking ... but u guys have to check out the thread about the musical key of hip-hop.. wow.. seems to not only people recent theory and training but are running from it.
with information so freely available on the web. videos, charts, pdfs, exercises, scores..

when u say FORMAL MUSICAL TRAINING seems that people get an image of a white dude with crazy hair and tuxedo and glasses listening to mozart or something.
Old 17th August 2007
  #45
Gear Maniac
 
mister sunshine's Avatar
 

I work in the TV biz as a sound guy but I have some perspectives to share.

1) I went to university for a Fine Arts Degree... I found the school to be a place where the teachers refused to teach technique, only wanted to discuss aestheitics, and ridiculed those of us who took anything outside of fine arts seriously. That included my Chemistry and Physics classes as well as my Art History studies.

2) I took all the audio for media classes available in the communications college... but I ended up teaching the instructor how to use the outboard gear because he was unable to demonstrate it to the class other wise.

3) Dedicated tech schools? It seems to be a trend that the worst, most useless students from the technical schools are the most vocal about their credentials. I do work with a graduate of one of these schools... he happens to be a good guy and also has a degree in business from a university. But by and large most of the guys who throw around the school's name are clowns. The guys who have the goods don't need to mention the schools.

4) Then there is the issue that many of the tech schools are focused on particular technologies that the instructors have financial ties with so the students don't get a broad based education regarding the craft. Case in point, a young man just got back from Orlando and wanted to show me a new software app that he had learned to describe as "this thing is going to completely changes 3d animation for video"... so he launches it and starts making... something. It only took me a few minutes to realize it wasn't a 3d app at all but a 2d illustator that utilzed Z-Buffers to create a sense of shading. I kept asking "how is it gonna effect 3d modeling"? Eventually he said "I don't know" but then repeated the mantra "this thing is going to completely changes 3d animation for video". It kinda made my stomach turn... he hasn't figured out how in debt he is yet.


As a life long self taught musician but with 6 credits of music theory for non majors I wish I had learned more formal music theory while I was younger. I wish this almost every day I am working on music compisition. I just work much slower than I would like.

But the fact remains that I rarely encounter a "schooled" musician who has a flair for creativity or improvisation. I've been lucky to work for some who have it all... but those guys are superstars. Most of the schooled musicians I know work in symphonies or jazz bands.

My niece played clarinet in a high school band that was awarded 1st in competitions... but she can't take a pull when we play a blues family style. I'm sad for her... shes been bred to be self critical and paralyzed.


Then there was the whole era when the electrical engineers tried to convince us that tubes were going to disapeer while solid state was "perfect"... I'm still suspicious about that ;-). Those guys all went to school.

That said I certainly respect education and would welcome working with anyone who has attained some knowledge... but unfortunately there are more clowns than performance oriented people walking around with degrees and school credentials. When someone really has knowledge it all seems so graceful... it doesn't matter how they learned it. If they have it.

best regards,
mike
Old 17th August 2007
  #46
Gear Nut
 
Haskell Brooks's Avatar
 

That anyone belittles anyone else for a lack of training, or for excessive training, is really a statement about the person doing the belittling, I think.

There are so many personality types and personal histories acting in the service of art (any kind of art), that deciding which ones are worthy is a waste of valuable time. I think we are very fortunate to have this level of diversity, and though I may prefer this over that, I'm glad that exists.

I had the opportunity to apprentice with a Tamarind Institute trained master lithographer, and I can tell you the collaborations I witnessed between printer and artist were transcendent at times, with two often very disparate levels of training being expressed.

I see no reason that the same can't coexist in the world of music as well.
Old 17th August 2007
  #47
Gear Guru
 
henryrobinett's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane View Post
i guess when you say "formal" you get me thinking of school, as in, 4 years and you get a b.a. degree.

the joke at berklee college has always been that if you get a degree, you must not be very talented, otherwise you'd have gotten a gig and gotten out on the road before graduation.

when i listen to thelonious monk, or better, when i study his scores etc., i think, now this is a really educated, well-trained, and self-disciplined musician. but i'm pretty sure he didn't get a b.a. in music.

i agree that talent and education go hand in hand.

i'm just not sure where schools, as they are currently constituted, fit into all this.

just like, i'm sure that good health and good doctors go hand in hand... i just don't know where hmo's fit into that picture.

does a school actually help the music education process? can you learn to be a professional musician in school? if you are a really talented musician, will school help you even more, or will it hinder you?

i imagine a talent like mozart, if he/she exists today, would wash out of most music schools in the country in the first semester.

so, the question is, where does a really talented youngster go today to get more training, if not a school?
I tend to think so. I think college educated, when it comes to music -formal education - is not all that important. i tend to agree with those Berklee dudes. I don't necessarily think of that as educated -- especially when it comes to jazz. Maybe it's because I never lasted in school. But I think of myself as educated in music. In fact I now teach music in college, -- without a degree.

I also don't think of Grapelli as untrained in theory.

I think, however, that the general musician public downgrades musical education, in school or not. I think it's sad.
Old 17th August 2007
  #48
Lives for gear
 
Eganmedia's Avatar
I find there is an appreciation by those of us on "this" side of the glass for formally trained folks on the "other" side of the glass. I certainly have both appreciation and admiration for those who can distill their muse into scribbles on staves.

Because so many of us have no "formal" training in recording, it's easy to see why there would be little admiration or appreciation for those kids fresh from SAE or Full Sail who show up, looking like McDonalds cashiers, presuming they can do what we've taken years to learn.

Electricians, lawyers, plumbers and acountants all have certificates to show they have met professional standards in their education and practical ability. There is nothing that in the recording field says the same thing.

Maybe there ought to be?
Old 17th August 2007
  #49
Lives for gear
 
octatonic's Avatar
I respect study but I do not respect institutions.

Coltrane, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker are just three of my favourite musicians who studied but didn't go to school to do it.
Most of my favourite musicians did it this way.

I'm not against all music played by people who went to a university- I like anything that is great and love anything that is amazing regardless of where it came from.
Old 17th August 2007
  #50
Lives for gear
 
Andrew Kinsey's Avatar
 

In the end what studio owners care about is hiring an engineer who will attract, and please, clients.

The reason why many people from within the industry seem to frown at degrees in audio engineering is because graduates who go to these courses generally come out thinking that they know everything, but have little or no experience of how things are done in a real studio environment.

This is not the fault of the students, its the fault of the course for teaching a sylabus which is too theory orientated and doesn't actually teach students how to use their ears or the equipment creatively.

For me personally, i learn't way more, creatively & theoretically, in my own studio than when i was doing a degree course in audio engineering at university.

The bottom line is that in order to stand out from the thousands of others in a creative industry like this, one has to show raw talent, and that isn't something that one gets from doing a course.

Most studio owners would rather hire someone who knows what there doing and who actually has an ear for making things sound good. Degrees do not give a studio owner any indication that the person has a good ear for making music, it only shows that they attended the course and studied a sylabus which is mostly all theory.

Old 17th August 2007
  #51
Lives for gear
 
chrispick's Avatar
 

An academic education in music may or may not be beneficial to a musician. However, any musician could benefit from even a cursory knowledge of music history and theory. You could be self-taught in these areas, if your learning temperament is suited.

Personally, any time I've made my theory knowledge known to other musicians/engineers, it's gained me more respect than I expected (as possibly deserved). It helped save a recent recording session I attended.

I look at it this way: Every great writer understands grammar. As to whether than understanding was gained via English class and sentence diagrams or via absorption of other literature differs with every writer.

Usually though, of course, it's both.

Mainly, you just can't let the cart become the horse, so to speak. A great work of literature isn't driven by exemplary wielding of grammar. Same goes for great music and theory.

And --

I think all of this applies to mix engineers too. You deal with audio frequencies and the ways the merge, collide and overlap? Welcome to music theory, my friend.
Old 17th August 2007
  #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrox247 View Post
I believe it was the great George Gershwin who said "The most important thing to remember about musical theory, is to forget it".

I'm not saying I agree with that, but it is an interesting perspective considering the source.

i hear george, and i agree. he was somone who understood inspiration and technical facility.

it can be important to move out of the theoretical / intellectual at a certain point -


then again,

to some - monk is inspiration and holdsworth is technical,

while to others, joss stone is inspiration, and busta is technical.

stones = inspiration, yes = technical,

brahms = inspiration, poulenc = technical

etc.


process to zen master:

10 years study
10 years practice
10 years forget



.
Old 17th August 2007
  #53
Gear Maniac
 

That's the problem with quotes, they are taken wildly out of context. Gershwin might've said that "the most important thing about learning music theory is to forget it", but he either would've been referring to "forgetting it" while improvising (ie. it's ingrained, so you don't need to think about it anymore, like patterns of speech are for us) or he said it in jest, because if you study any of his songs, they are full of theoretical tricks and genius that someone without a knowledge of theory would not have been able to execute so effectively.

I'm in my 3rd year of a double degree (common over here in New Zealand, not so in the states i belive) of a Bachelor of Music with Honours majoring in contemporary rock music, and a Bachelor of Arts with Honours majoring in Communcations. I believe my musical training has been invaluable, especially because my school is not just a conservatory with the "here's a chart, it's monday, perform it on friday, you'll have another one next monday" mentality. Sure we have to perform other peoples songs for one of our papers and we have technical assessments too, but we also have a whole stream of performance which is centred and focused around being a rock musician: ie. we are in bands coming up with original material and having it critiqued by our lectureres (Kiwi for professor) who suggest ways to make our material better (more coherent, experimental, basicially to prcatically expose us to new arrangement techniques). I've also studied theory to 300 (soon to be 400) level and have found this invaluable: analysing works from both classical and rock composers deemed to be master works to see what they're doing. The best thing is, I now use these techniques for my own analysis, so say I hear a new artist and want to know exactly what makes them sound so good, I have the palatte to really understand this and dissect it to try and incorporate that into my own compositions/songs. An untrained musician can play it, but their ignorance will often lead to them being influenced too heavily by the style, without truly understanding it, merely being able to play it. I have also had the the opportunity to study tonal harmony (writing bach chorals by his rules), and various other compositional techniques and songwriting techniques (we have a heavy emphasis placed on songwriting technique at my school, as heavy as that of composition, and as we often find, the two can be brought together quite well).

Now, what does all this mean? Am I some tool of the establishment? No far from it (this is due in a large part due to the more free nature of my school's teaching too however, I can understand the reluctance to train for fear of becoming a GIT fret-monkey). I have an incredible number of compsitional tools available to me and, even better, the tools to analyse music to devise ever more.

Having a high-level musical education does not just affect music-making, though. It makes engineering so much easier and it makes you more sympathetic and empathetic to the actual music (surely the reason you're mixing anyway) so your mixes sound more "musical". Granted, the level of musical education to be a good engineer is a lot less as engineers are more after How something sounds, not Why (musical, not physical why), and can be acquired by just listening. Formal musical training, however, accelerates the process and is making me personally a very capable producer because I have a huge palatte of arranging tools available to me when I work with a band.
Old 17th August 2007
  #54
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Mike......

I think the broader point might be to respect someone who has put forth the energy and dedication to aquire the knowledge.....

Many folks in our industry seem to resent that.....

Bruce
Wow, I'm very sorry to hear that folks are being disrespected or resented for their formal training. How do you mean exactly? While I have a college degree, some of my real and formal education came from folks you know - Murray Allen, Malcolm Chisolm, and Marty Feldman. None of my clients know or care about any of that background (which may be why I'm not experiencing this backlash), but I feel I owe a large debt of gratitude towards those mentors for my 20-odd years of success in this industry.

Formally educated and proud of it!

Bruce, sorry I never had the pleasure of working under you in Chicago, though I definitely tried to follow in some of the large footprints you left. I think we may be a generation apart.
Old 17th August 2007
  #55
Gear Addict
 

FEAR has always been the most commonly shared feeling among human beings and when out of control, it locks people into an obscure cave and turns them into either sheeps or wardogs...

Then the ones will spend their lives frightened by the prospect of losing security and the others by the prospect of losing power...

Of course, the audio-engineering community isn't spared by that and sure enough, you'll hear quite a few audio engineers bashing the educated and trained because what scares them the most is to loose either their job for the common ones or their power for the top-of-the-list acknowledged others.

I'm afraid we're still Flintstones...

At least, we don't burn people for not recording to analog, those damn heretics !...

Cheers,

Olivier.
Old 17th August 2007
  #56
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Mike......

I think the broader point might be to respect someone who has put forth the energy and dedication to aquire the knowledge.....

Many folks in our industry seem to resent that.....

Bruce
If that is true, I suspect that these people have other problems not musically related. There's no logic to this. People are people no matter what their vocation - some good some not so good.
Old 17th August 2007
  #57
Lives for gear
 
AlphaDingo's Avatar
 

Ignorant people tent to act as if ignorance was a virtue. People who are not ignorant recognize it for what it is.
Old 17th August 2007
  #58
Viking
 
Bruce Swedien's Avatar
 

YES!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaDingo View Post
Ignorant people tent to act as if ignorance was a virtue. People who are not ignorant recognize it for what it is.

YES!!!!!

Bruce
Old 17th August 2007
  #59
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane View Post
i guess when you say "formal" you get me thinking of school, as in, 4 years and you get a b.a. degree.

the joke at berklee college has always been that if you get a degree, you must not be very talented, otherwise you'd have gotten a gig and gotten out on the road before graduation.

when i listen to thelonious monk, or better, when i study his scores etc., i think, now this is a really educated, well-trained, and self-disciplined musician. but i'm pretty sure he didn't get a b.a. in music.

i agree that talent and education go hand in hand.

i'm just not sure where schools, as they are currently constituted, fit into all this.

just like, i'm sure that good health and good doctors go hand in hand... i just don't know where hmo's fit into that picture.

does a school actually help the music education process? can you learn to be a professional musician in school? if you are a really talented musician, will school help you even more, or will it hinder you?

i imagine a talent like mozart, if he/she exists today, would wash out of most music schools in the country in the first semester.

so, the question is, where does a really talented youngster go today to get more training, if not a school?
Excellent point!
Old 17th August 2007
  #60
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Here's the problem in my mind, and I haven't read all the posts, so someone has probably already said this.

Training is good. Necessary even. But it can be aquired in many different ways. Formal training CAN be good and often is. The problem arises when training/education is equated with someone that has a skill set and the ability to use it in a creative fashion. My experience says those two often do not equal each other.

The problem is that we are involved in art, and though an art can be distilled and taught in tangible terms, ultimately talent cannot be taught. I'd take an untrained natural talent over an overtained non-talent any day anywhere for any reason. Out of every thousand people, only X percent have talent. So therefore, out of every thousand kids coming out of recording arts programs, only X percent of them have the talent to make it. (Assuming that there were jobs for them.) The rest just thought it would be a cool job or career and are ultimately clogging up the system. Same goes for music schools, although there is more room for students here because of the large need for teachers.

Talent will rise to the top. Always.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
quietdrive / So much gear, so little time
1
TML / Bruce Swedien
2
Nik / So much gear, so little time
29
Renie / So much gear, so little time
27

Forum Jump
Forum Jump