The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
1st Neve Tube Console - very cool!
Old 24th July 2007
  #31
Lives for gear
 

Hi
Just a couple of decent digital photographs of the innards is all that is needed!! There is not really a lot in there for most of the circuit. Details of type of transformers would be very useful too.
Many circuits 'follow a theme' and once each 'wheel' has been invented most are just upgrades (alloys, white wall tyres and so on).
Matt S
Old 24th July 2007
  #32
Lives for gear
 
emrr's Avatar
I bet all three extant consoles are diffferent from one another in design.

Sorry, I'm getting sidetracked:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
You are right, I meant the 201A which of course is the same as the Langevin 201A since Electrodyne built them and use to own the company at that point. Langevin was started as the secondary supplier to WE during WWII that's how they got their start and all the diagrams that were brought to the first incarnation of Edyne was from an engineer who came from WE as well named Chuck Broneer.
The Langevin catalogs claim a 1923 start for the Langevin name, but the earliest Langevin ad I've found dates to July 1944.

I've yet to encounter a reliable story about the company before 1950 or so. We have to remember here that the people still alive can only speak back to about WWII, and there is a previous generation of 'electrical audio' engineers now passed on. Most surviving employees only know their own little piece of the puzzle through possibly dim memories.

My Progar manual has 1946 dates and lists a NY address, as does a 1943 Langevin military manual I have. They were an independent company until purchased by Maxson sometime in the 1950's.

Can you put specific years on Electrodyne's ownership of Langevin? Because the 1961 Langevin catalog, which has the AM-201A and AM-5116-B as new items, says 'a division of Sonotec Inc.'. The AM-201A is not in the 1963 catalog, but the AM-5116-B is still there, and still listed as a new item(?). The 1970 catalog mentions no affiliations or ownerships, but the 1971 states 'an MCA Tech. Co.'. I've not seen any other Langevin catalogs to have a complete picture. I see from the TapeOp article how Electrodyne feeds into MCA Tech around 1970.

I have a 1968ish Altec console using Altec faders in the original section, and Langevin faders in a custom remix section added around 1974.
Old 24th July 2007
  #33
Lives for gear
 
emrr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson View Post
Hi
Just a couple of decent digital photographs of the innards is all that is needed!! There is not really a lot in there for most of the circuit. Details of type of transformers would be very useful too.
Many circuits 'follow a theme' and once each 'wheel' has been invented most are just upgrades (alloys, white wall tyres and so on).
Matt S

I can tell you that gut photos would do you no good at all with the one I've looked at. Related sections are all over the place in physically different areas, and the wiring is fairly tough to trace. Some sections can only be seen with a flashlight and dental mirror, unless you want to risk a full tear-down (I wouldn't). There are a few circuit touches that fall outside of the mainstream as well. The transformers are unmarked, though the manufacturer could probably be sussed out.
Old 24th July 2007
  #34
Lives for gear
 

Hi Doug
It would be interesting to find out how far it could be traced out without getting 'extreme' or pulling it apart.
Each valve has only 6 'mystery connections' at most and then they are 'defined' to a reasonable extent by the way they work.
Go on, be a devil!!
Matt S
Old 24th July 2007
  #35
Lives for gear
 
emrr's Avatar
Oh, I traced the one console completely. I'm just under contract to not reveal many details. As you know, the tubes can be ID'ed and the connections guessed to a reasonable extent, but the sound is defined by the specifics of the circuit and the parts used. I've reverse-engineered probably 50 antique tube pieces lacking info, with several consoles among them. This one is unique in many features and aspects.
Old 24th July 2007
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by emrr View Post
I bet all three extant consoles are diffferent from one another in design.

Sorry, I'm getting sidetracked:



The Langevin catalogs claim a 1923 start for the Langevin name, but the earliest Langevin ad I've found dates to July 1944.

I've yet to encounter a reliable story about the company before 1950 or so. We have to remember here that the people still alive can only speak back to about WWII, and there is a previous generation of 'electrical audio' engineers now passed on. Most surviving employees only know their own little piece of the puzzle through possibly dim memories.

My Progar manual has 1946 dates and lists a NY address, as does a 1943 Langevin military manual I have. They were an independent company until purchased by Maxson sometime in the 1950's.

Can you put specific years on Electrodyne's ownership of Langevin? Because the 1961 Langevin catalog, which has the AM-201A and AM-5116-B as new items, says 'a division of Sonotec Inc.'. The AM-201A is not in the 1963 catalog, but the AM-5116-B is still there, and still listed as a new item(?). The 1970 catalog mentions no affiliations or ownerships, but the 1971 states 'an MCA Tech. Co.'. I've not seen any other Langevin catalogs to have a complete picture. I see from the TapeOp article how Electrodyne feeds into MCA Tech around 1970.

I have a 1968ish Altec console using Altec faders in the original section, and Langevin faders in a custom remix section added around 1974.
I have a great CD I should send you that has Don King from Electrodyne telling the story of electrodyne on out... The article I did for Tape-Op only touched on some of this stuff. MCA Tech ended up being the parent company for many of these companies later on.

Understand that Edyne was bought by several different companies, Cinema Engineering, Sonotec, MCA Technologies, Cetec (which the name came from the combo of Cinema Engineering and MCA Technologies) etc... and that sometimes they had acquired companies that were sold along with their name, the history gets very convoluted.

Keep in mind there were two incarnations of Electrodyne. The first one (1940's) built the tube gear (basically WE design as there engineer who designed this gear left WE and went to work for Edyne) bringing with him what would become the Edyne 201A (and Langevin of the same) (see picture attached). That eventually closed down and the partners retained the name, later one of the partners wanted to start the company up again but building the new solid state gear that was just coming on the scene.

If you notice the Langevin font is the same as Western Electrics, that decision was made when they became the secondary supplier for WE during WWII. The government mandated that every supplier to the military had a secondary supplier just in case...

It's way too long to go into detail and was even more difficult to decide what went into the article I wrote (I was limited but forced Larry C. to print most of what I'd written). Several of the original Edyne guys are still left and most of them remember things pretty well.
Old 24th July 2007
  #37
Oooops, here's that picture...
Attached Thumbnails
1st Neve Tube Console - very cool!-edyne-tube-pre.jpg  
Old 24th July 2007
  #38
Lives for gear
 
emrr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post

Keep in mind there were two incarnations of Electrodyne. The first one (1940's) built the tube gear (basically WE design as there engineer who designed this gear left WE and went to work for Edyne) bringing with him what would become the Edyne 201A (and Langevin of the same) (see picture attached). That eventually closed down and the partners retained the name, later one of the partners wanted to start the company up again but building the new solid state gear that was just coming on the scene.
Larry, several points make me skeptical.

1) I have a massive collection or electronics literature; manuals, catalogs, many of the primary audio and general electronics mazines from 1930-1960. Probably half a ton of paper. Nowhere have I ever seen any mention of Electrodyne; not a single product release announcement, etc. Cinema Engineering, yes, Hycor (first version of the Langevin 251 EQ, another Art Davis creation), yes, etc etc etc. They are all there, except Electrodyne.

2) The AM-201A is about the fourth generation Langevin preamp, following the 106A/111A, 116A, and then the 5116 (different from the 5116-B). The topology, physical design style, and tube types all point no earlier than late 1950's and more likely early 1960's. The 201A is the only tube product with Electrodyne branding I've ever been made aware of. John Hall gets credited with the AM-5116B while at Langevin, so the 201A would be his as well.

3) Western Electric never built tube audio products that in any way resemble the 201A. They never got away from octal tubes in their pro audio gear. There is no new WE audio design into the 9-pin tube age, and many things get different; usually much larger amounts of negative feedback to (partially) compensate for higher inherent distortion of smaller tubes, and smaller transformers.

4) The early mention of Electrodyne products in the TapeOp article refers to subminiature tubes, which were never adopted by much of anyone beyond the military and aviation industries due to the high cost and lack of need. That dis-inclines me to believe they were even producing for the audio world, especially given that Art Davis already had stock in Cinema and Langevin.

The Electronics Magazine 1953 Buyer's Guide is a 188 page telephone book style exhaustive listing of every electronics industry player. Electrodyne shows up in the Manufacturers index with a Norwood, Mass address. So far I don't see them listed in any of the amplifier or preamplifier categories, which include everything from audio to DC to microwave. AHA! Listed under 'medical instrument' and 'photocell' amplifiers, which makes sense with sub-mini tubes.

I'm inclined to think that the 201A is more likely a re-branded Langevin product from the second Electrodyne era, in the same fashion that Fairchild re-branded the Langevin 116B in the early '50's.

Art Davis' obituary in the AES Journal says he started Cinema Engineering in 1938, bought into Langevin in the early '50's, and then later headed up Altecs' audio control department until his death in 1970. Cinema was sold to Aerovox in 1964 I think, but I can't locate the reference at the moment. That would make sense if it co-incides with Davis moving to Altec.

I'm not trying to sound stubborn, I just need some more smoking guns. I'd like to know more specifically when each version of the company existed, and especially what the earlier company produced.
Old 24th July 2007
  #39
Lives for gear
 
Kris's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
The purity of iron and such just does not seem the same and the EPA removed all the good carcinogens.
I've always wondered if this was part of the reason that some of the old gear just sounds better...
Old 24th July 2007
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by emrr View Post
Larry, several points make me skeptical.

1) I have a massive collection or electronics literature; manuals, catalogs, many of the primary audio and general electronics mazines from 1930-1960. Probably half a ton of paper. Nowhere have I ever seen any mention of Electrodyne; not a single product release announcement, etc. Cinema Engineering, yes, Hycor (first version of the Langevin 251 EQ, another Art Davis creation), yes, etc etc etc. They are all there, except Electrodyne.

2) The AM-201A is about the fourth generation Langevin preamp, following the 106A/111A, 116A, and then the 5116 (different from the 5116-B). The topology, physical design style, and tube types all point no earlier than late 1950's and more likely early 1960's. The 201A is the only tube product with Electrodyne branding I've ever been made aware of. John Hall gets credited with the AM-5116B while at Langevin, so the 201A would be his as well.

3) Western Electric never built tube audio products that in any way resemble the 201A. They never got away from octal tubes in their pro audio gear. There is no new WE audio design into the 9-pin tube age, and many things get different; usually much larger amounts of negative feedback to (partially) compensate for higher inherent distortion of smaller tubes, and smaller transformers.

4) The early mention of Electrodyne products in the TapeOp article refers to subminiature tubes, which were never adopted by much of anyone beyond the military and aviation industries due to the high cost and lack of need. That dis-inclines me to believe they were even producing for the audio world, especially given that Art Davis already had stock in Cinema and Langevin.

The Electronics Magazine 1953 Buyer's Guide is a 188 page telephone book style exhaustive listing of every electronics industry player. Electrodyne shows up in the Manufacturers index with a Norwood, Mass address. So far I don't see them listed in any of the amplifier or preamplifier categories, which include everything from audio to DC to microwave. AHA! Listed under 'medical instrument' and 'photocell' amplifiers, which makes sense with sub-mini tubes.

I'm inclined to think that the 201A is more likely a re-branded Langevin product from the second Electrodyne era, in the same fashion that Fairchild re-branded the Langevin 116B in the early '50's.

Art Davis' obituary in the AES Journal says he started Cinema Engineering in 1938, bought into Langevin in the early '50's, and then later headed up Altecs' audio control department until his death in 1970. Cinema was sold to Aerovox in 1964 I think, but I can't locate the reference at the moment. That would make sense if it co-incides with Davis moving to Altec.

I'm not trying to sound stubborn, I just need some more smoking guns. I'd like to know more specifically when each version of the company existed, and especially what the earlier company produced.
Doug I'm going to put you in touch with Don King. I'll PM you with his phone number and he can set the record straight on some of this. I was told so many stories while trying to write that article and had to fight fact from fiction all along. I had some engineers taking credit for others work and such and most of it was due to age more than anything else. I did my best to try and fit the time line but as you can imagine that was the hardest part. The guys that were there couldn't even remember the exact dates.

Funny thing is Art Davis owned Electrodyne, the 251 EQ you mention is another that Electrodyne built called the (you guessed it) the 251-A as well as the 253-A. Plus high and low pass filters, etc. I'll attach the cover sheet of the sales info so you can see what kind of equipment they built.

According to Don Electrodyne and Altec eventually were owned by the same parent company and that was named, Cetec and was later sold to Areovox who didn't know what to do with the company so they shut it down. It's all on the CD I'll be sending you. You can do the timeline and send it back to me (ha ha).
Attached Thumbnails
1st Neve Tube Console - very cool!-edynes-sales-cl.jpg   1st Neve Tube Console - very cool!-edyne-equip-cat.jpg  
Old 25th July 2007
  #41
Lives for gear
 
emrr's Avatar
We'll get to the botttom of this yet! Thanks for attaching that info Larry! Did we really have two concurrent Electrodynes, making three companies? One unrelated? Or a different division?

Weren't we talking about a tube Neve? heh
Old 23rd July 2011
  #42
Gear Addict
 

lots of good history on edyne, we, and langevin.
Old 19th September 2018
  #43
Lives for gear
 
Sigma's Avatar
resurrected..great stuff
Old 26th September 2018
  #44
Lives for gear
 
ruffrecords's Avatar
For those asking about the innards of the original Neve tube mixer there are schematics available on line now.

Cheers

Ian
Old 26th September 2018
  #45
Gear Maniac
 
Spano's Avatar
I would LOVE to just hear one of those in the flesh, NEVE is my favorite.... i wonder if his pedals are any good...
Old 26th September 2018
  #46
Lives for gear
 
Sigma's Avatar
is Doug's son still alive? he did the machine coding for our eclipse C
Old 26th September 2018
  #47
Since it's his first.....It's probably not his best.

Neat to look at!
Old 28th September 2018
  #48
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 

i like the pics.




Old 28th September 2018
  #49
Quote:
Originally Posted by pan60 View Post
i like the pics.




Thanks Pan, my old friend Doug Cronin still has it. He offered it to me for 5K once when he needed money, I probably should have bought it but oh well.

In talking with Rupert about this (and the (roughly) 9 other tube consoles he built when starting out) the design was just a common tube circuit at that time. He was rather quiet about it when talking and said they were not his best designs. Of course at that time we were talking about my 1973 BCM10 console, a design he was very proud of but still felt it was flawed. As he said, “he did the best he could with the components available at that time”. Nice man, his wife is a sweetheart.

Oh and that last picture is a Langevin/Electrodyne 201A tube preamp from my tube console. I do have inside pictures of the tube console but promised Doug I wouldn’t post them.
📝 Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 184 views: 73464
Avatar for audiomizer
audiomizer 22nd June 2015
replies: 64 views: 25409
Avatar for Geoff_T
Geoff_T 9th September 2013
replies: 191 views: 32821
Avatar for ResonantMind
ResonantMind 12th February 2018
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
🖨️ Show Printable Version
✉️ Email this Page
🔍 Search thread
🎙️ View mentioned gear
Forum Jump
Forum Jump