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If everybody is moving ITB, why are vintage outboard gear still so expensive?
Old 14th August 2020
  #91
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myles's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
I guess i wasn't the only one.

I bought a lot of Neve mic Pre EQ's from Funky Junk in the old days( a whole mess of 1066's($1500 average) which were never as in demand at the time as 1073/1084/1081's). It was my secret of finding Neve's cheap.

The introduction of the Euro totally killed it.
Even though the UK didn't switch? And the Euro didn't start until 2002. I'd say it was the Internet what killed it... Suddenly, you didn't have to know about some "obscure" magazine from (gasp) a foreign country in order to see what was going on. And there were a whole lot of people who had no idea what a Neve was before, say, this forum.

An important inflection point was also Fletcher's articles - were they in R/E/P? - about vintage gear in the mid-90's. Similar in effect to Gruhn's articles in Guitar Player in '74 about vintage guitars.
Old 14th August 2020
  #92
Quote:
Originally Posted by myles View Post
Even though the UK didn't switch? And the Euro didn't start until 2002. I'd say it was the Internet what killed it... Suddenly, you didn't have to know about some "obscure" magazine from (gasp) a foreign country in order to see what was going on. And there were a whole lot of people who had no idea what a Neve was before, say, this forum.

For me a whole world of buying, selling and trading gear existed pre Gearslutz(2002) so i consider anything after that the "awekening or downfall".

People forget that all of the knowledge about gear didn't exist in one place like now. You had to really do your research through different forums to get an idea what was really what and it was still a crapshoot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by myles View Post
An important inflection point was also Fletcher's articles - were they in R/E/P? - about vintage gear in the mid-90's. Similar in effect to Gruhn's articles in Guitar Player in '74 about vintage guitars.
It was Mix magazine. Pretty much made the Blue Stripe 1176 become unobtanium.
Old 14th August 2020
  #93
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myles's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
For me a whole world of buying, selling and trading gear existed pre Gearslutz(2002) so i consider anything after that the "awekening or downfall".

People forget that all of the knowledge about gear didn't exist in one place like now. You had to really do your research through different forums to get an idea what was really what and it was still a crapshoot.

It was Mix magazine. Pretty much made the Blue Stripe 1176 become unobtanium.
Thanks - I forget that Mix actually had some value at one point. But, yeah, you had to do your homework.
Old 14th August 2020
  #94
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midnightsun's Avatar
 

The microchip

How do you compare a digital watch to a Rolex watch. The digital watch will keep better time than a Rolex. If you can't see the value in the incredible engineering of a Rolex watch or the actual build quality of certain analog pieces of gear than you shouldn't waste your money or your time. You have to just like the nonmicroship stuff. Again the digital watch will almost always do a better job of giving accurate time. It is also possible that something old is still a piece of junk. Vintage doesn't necessarily mean well build or good at performance/function. As I go through life I am leaning more toward having stuff that I really use on a regular basis. If I am not using it, it seems like a boat anchor.
Old 14th August 2020
  #95
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robert82's Avatar
It's fun to watch the ads at the bottom of the thread pages shift according to which gear is mentioned.

Right now there's a Urei 1176LN for $9700, another blackface for $8495 and Urei "vintage 70s" 1176 for $3465. These are the "Rolexes". And most likely sound different than they did in the "vintage 70s".
Old 14th August 2020
  #96
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Pindrive's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
That is a life style product not a tool. Most people buy a Ferrari to show that they are rich, not that to show they are in a hurry to go to work. Very few owners can push the car to it's limits.
one might argue that many collectors of outboard gear probably don't know how to really squeeze the best out of it either.
There are plenty of historic races where people race their multi-million dollar cars. I think they are crazy but, I don't have the funds to buy such a car, yet repair it after a crash....
Old 14th August 2020
  #97
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pindrive View Post
one might argue that many collectors of outboard gear probably don't know how to really squeeze the best out of it either.
There are plenty of historic races where people race their multi-million dollar cars. I think they are crazy but, I don't have the funds to buy such a car, yet repair it after a crash....
Sure, and there are always people that figure out how to exploit that and make money from it. Like getting people to pay $615000US for used shoes.
Old 14th August 2020
  #98
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
These were digitized from old Studio Sound Magazines.

Its hard to see the prices(maybe i can post the PDF's) but you can chart from decade to decade how the price of gear changed.

In the mid 70's through the 80's it was fashionable to rip out transformers from equipment(everyone wanted to be the next George Massenberg) and throw out out the tube gear replaced by solid state gear( the instability and noise floor drove guys nuts for years), that the gear people would "sell their left nut for now" prices went down for a stretch, but the advent of the digital format replacing tape(especially with the release of the ADAT) changed all that as people started missing the depth and character and all of sudden the gear craze took over(late 80's-90's-2000's till today).

All of a sudden it was mandatory that you needed a 1073 and a LA2a for vocals and to strap a pair of V72's on the output of your Yamaha 02R to give it back a sound( whoever started that idea really did a number on people). This is when the price of classic outboard gear really started to go through the stratosphere as the demand by all the "project" home studios created a new market for the gear pimps( and hence Gearslutz was born).
Now some guys miss the crispy sear of the O2R and O1V. It was cool and vibier than a lot of contemporary, dull and etched low end gear but who wants that on everything?
Old 14th August 2020
  #99
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Other than Tony Maserati?
Chris
Old 15th August 2020
  #100
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by To Mega Therion View Post
Now some guys miss the crispy sear of the O2R and O1V. It was cool and vibier than a lot of contemporary, dull and etched low end gear but who wants that on everything?
I had an O2Rv2 for two days in my studio many many years ago. It was only there for two days because it sounded horrible (but the top end was a bit dull rather than crispy). I couldn't stand the sound of it then. I find it hard to imagine anyone feeling nostalgic for that sound but I guess it is possible...

And to tie it back in to what has been said the last couple of pages, I could sell it again at a profit by selling it on a local Dutch online market place because the people on that site were not so knowledgeable about international market prices. That discrepancy in prices lasted a few years until the site got bought by Ebay. I'm sure some people must have made a killing exploiting that price differential.

Alistair
Old 15th August 2020
  #101
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Hmm... Maybe now I should run everything then, through my Vestax HDR6, with its 20 bit 90's A/D converters...
Chris
Old 16th August 2020
  #102
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santibanks's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
That discrepancy in prices lasted a few years until the site got bought by Ebay. I'm sure some people must have made a killing exploiting that price differential.

Alistair
That site has been bought by eBay in 2004. Not sure if that's the period you are referring to, but in my experience from dealing on that site for maybe more than 15 years now, the asking prices have been insane on that place for a very long time. Often out of ignorance because John Doe who has no clue really believes his Roland U20 is still worth 400 euros.

But for me the real problem is that these sites facilitate stores with online presence to place ads. 70% of the ads are just stores selling their new stuff. I understand eBay likes the commission, but it's not really "fair game" to litter a second hand/used goods market with brand new items from commercial entities and it kind of undermines the idea of a classified site.
Old 16th August 2020
  #103
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by santibanks View Post
That site has been bought by eBay in 2004. Not sure if that's the period you are referring to, but in my experience from dealing on that site for maybe more than 15 years now, the asking prices have been insane on that place for a very long time. Often out of ignorance because John Doe who has no clue really believes his Roland U20 is still worth 400 euros.
Oh really? I didn't realise that the prices were still too high for the market. I don't really tend to sell my old gear. It just goes into storage. So I don't pay too much attention to the 2nd hand market. Maybe I should do a clean-up one of these days.

Agreed on your second paragraph.

Alistair
Old 17th August 2020
  #104
Because they’re rare.

A house brick with the Supreme logo sold for 1000s on ebay- because there was only one in the world.

Price does not equate to usefulness. Case in point - rare memorabilia
Old 17th August 2020
  #105
Gear Nut
 

Analog synths?
Old 17th August 2020
  #106
Here for the gear
 

Many of us are still using it. In a Hybrid Fashion. I love it on my Buses.
Old 17th August 2020
  #107
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by santibanks View Post
That site has been bought by eBay in 2004. Not sure if that's the period you are referring to, but in my experience from dealing on that site for maybe more than 15 years now, the asking prices have been insane on that place for a very long time. Often out of ignorance because John Doe who has no clue really believes his Roland U20 is still worth 400 euros.

But for me the real problem is that these sites facilitate stores with online presence to place ads. 70% of the ads are just stores selling their new stuff. I understand eBay likes the commission, but it's not really "fair game" to litter a second hand/used goods market with brand new items from commercial entities and it kind of undermines the idea of a classified site.
Reverb does it too, and I try to filter my searches so I don't see any new gear from stores.
Old 17th August 2020
  #108
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T_R_S's Avatar
Supply and demand
SSL FX384 - $3K +

vs

BSS DPR402 $500.00
which is a really good compressor better and more flexible than the SSL

A lot of it comes down to name recognition too.
A sold our Fairchild $670 fr just under $50K there is no way in the world it sounded like $50K. Plus having to re-tube it every 3 years that costs $2500 each time.
Owning vintage mics is a another problem, the maintenance cost really add up on vintage gear.
Old 17th August 2020
  #109
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
Supply and demand
SSL FX384 - $3K +

vs

BSS DPR402 $500.00
which is a really good compressor better and more flexible than the SSL

A lot of it comes down to name recognition too.
A sold our Fairchild $670 fr just under $50K there is no way in the world it sounded like $50K. Plus having to re-tube it every 3 years that costs $2500 each time.
Owning vintage mics is a another problem, the maintenance cost really add up on vintage gear.
Exacto. Some of the newer stuff is just better and more flexible without being nasty or plastic. Even some of the newer tube stuff. I’ve never understood the Manley Varimu at all but the Drawmer 1968 Fairchild timings and Retro 176 emulation in MJUC instantly impressed me.

There’s the flexers and the beginners too. The flexers are not funded by their own audio work and snear at the Harman, Drawmer, Lindell, Speck, and FMRs of the world that make good tools at affordable prices. The beginners and YouTube talking heads go gaga for muntzed clones, total crap, and aliased plugin emulations. Take your SSL example. They don’t really know what a bus compressor should do in the first place and have limiters on half their busses anyway.
Old 17th August 2020
  #110
Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
Owning vintage mics is a another problem, the maintenance cost really add up on vintage gear.
that's a very good point and not something most people think about.
Old 18th August 2020
  #111
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s.d.finley's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by To Mega Therion View Post
Exacto. Some of the newer stuff is just better and more flexible without being nasty or plastic. Even some of the newer tube stuff. I’ve never understood the Manley Varimu at all but the Drawmer 1968 Fairchild timings and Retro 176 emulation in MJUC instantly impressed me.

There’s the flexers and the beginners too. The flexers are not funded by their own audio work and snear at the Harman, Drawmer, Lindell, Speck, and FMRs of the world that make good tools at affordable prices. The beginners and YouTube talking heads go gaga for muntzed clones, total crap, and aliased plugin emulations. Take your SSL example. They don’t really know what a bus compressor should do in the first place and have limiters on half their busses anyway.
OT: To Mega Therion- I hope you are a Celtic Frost fan!!
Old 18th August 2020
  #112
Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
Owning vintage mics is a another problem, the maintenance cost really add up on vintage gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pencilextremist View Post
that's a very good point and not something most people think about.
Plus I'd rather have a mic that can be serviced easily, has parts available and works every time, rather than a vintage one which if the tube goes it's gonna be $3k if you can even find one, and has off days - even if the "new" mic is only perceived to be "80%" of the sound by some.
Old 18th August 2020
  #113
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
ugh!

An intermittent mic - and I've had new ones that are way worse than old ones - are good for NOTHING IMO. I've almost thrown very expensive mics in the dumpster before. Can't feel good about selling them, and can't put them on the stand and get 1/2 way thru a vocal only to have the mic crap out. Ugh. RELIABLE should be the first and primary prerequisite for a mic!!!
Old 18th August 2020
  #114
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
ugh!

An intermittent mic - and I've had new ones that are way worse than old ones - are good for NOTHING IMO. I've almost thrown very expensive mics in the dumpster before. Can't feel good about selling them, and can't put them on the stand and get 1/2 way thru a vocal only to have the mic crap out. Ugh. RELIABLE should be the first and primary prerequisite for a mic!!!
I have a Charter Oak 538b that lies broken for the third time over its 14 years with me - I'd like to get rid of it, but can't sell it, and can't seem to get it fixed.

When it works, it's an amazing mic - sigh.

One thing I may never do again is buy from small, boutique makers - seemed like fun at the time.
Old 18th August 2020
  #115
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
I have a Charter Oak 538b that lies broken for the third time over its 14 years with me - I'd like to get rid of it, but can't sell it, and can't seem to get it fixed.

When it works, it's an amazing mic - sigh.

One thing I may never do again is buy from small, boutique makers - seemed like fun at the time.
Is Charter Oak still operating?

Did you send it back to them in the past?

I did a little searching and they seem to have a number of complaints about broken stuff and difficulties with repair service. Sorry to hear, I would expect a tube mic might have an issue at 14 years old but to have two previous problems before that is a bit much.
Old 18th August 2020
  #116
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLast View Post
Is Charter Oak still operating?

Did you send it back to them in the past?

I did a little searching and they seem to have a number of complaints about broken stuff and difficulties with repair service. Sorry to hear, I would expect a tube mic might have an issue at 14 years old but to have two previous problems before that is a bit much.
First repair was back in 06, taken care of immediately when CA had a few products and a small user base. What I think has happened is the products have outsold the company's (essentially, one guy) ability to keep pace, and it just got away from him. Still a great mic, in fact the 538 holds its own against anything, but service seems to be non-existent at this point.
Old 19th August 2020
  #117
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by s.d.finley View Post
OT: To Mega Therion- I hope you are a Celtic Frost fan!!
Hell yeah! To Mega Therion is the epic conclusion to their great period.
Old 19th August 2020
  #118
Source is paramount.

So unless you're only working with samples and synths you still have to put good quality audio Into the box.

Mic Pre amps, converters, di's and so on, will never go away. And though a lot of mixing engineers are going itb (and others have no option than being almost in the box, like myself) I think I haven't seen any top mastering engineers saying they went completely ITB and a lot of times they use a flavor of both.

Also the fully ITB idea is a fallacy, it doesn't exist. Your ears work in analogue and access audio in analogue so your referencing system, even if it's just a pair of crappy monitors or a full 50 thousand eur Tyler acoustics mastering monitors, this is not itb.

Nonetheless, seeing the big guys saying they're going full itb says 2 things to me. First plug-ins achieve a level of excellency and quality that can be reliable as heck (when a couple of decades pros would only use pro tools with accel cards or Uad). And secondly it's the man who makes the difference, not the gear.

Oh and I always fergot. Even with 120+ motorized faders ssls nothing beats the reacallibility of a daw and a fully itb mix and guys working in 5 mixes at the same time all praise this.
Old 19th August 2020
  #119
Lives for gear
 

Wonder what the real number/percentage of Gearslutz members are working on 5 mixes at the same time? Unless you are doing a label album(s) or most your income comes from mixing where you need the extra time/money savings of DAW recall because of non-commitment or commitee clients, then it's the old sonics/cost/quicker-recall endless debate we have here. Each position has it's pros and cons and there is never a universal clear wining setup for all. So there is no universal "everybody" that the thread title implies.

Looking at many of the biggest name mixers now using mostly plugs and the common thread is that they have had experience around analog gear and workflows so that their brains have stored those sonics/signal flow options to draw from and to compare against when now using plugs. What will be interesting is in seeing what the guys that start out using plugs with little or no ongoing experience with analog outboard/desks results will be. My guess is that it will be different and more akin to listening to samples vs. the real instrument.

Maybe the bigger question to ask is when will the power/clock speed of a single core of a CPU change enough to allow a magnitude more of near real time audio computing power that the plug developers can then reduce the shortcuts they take and thus deliver a different sonic? Until that day which I don't see in the near future following tech developments, I suspect the analog outboard market will have it's share of customers and the typical market forces will apply.
Old 19th August 2020
  #120
I don't know anyone that does 5 mixes at the same time...I just do one at one time, and make sure it's sounding the best it can possibly sound, I have worked on 2 or 3 projects at the same time but it can be counterproductive.
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