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Focal Trio11 too big
Old 21st July 2020
  #1
Focal Trio11 too big

I'm giving serious consideration to purchasing a pair of Focal trio 11be monitors. I'm concerned they might be oversized for my room though. The space is 19 feet long and 13.5 feet wide. It is well treated with broadband absorption, bass traps, diffusion and a cloud.

What do you think? Will the Trio 11's be too much monitor for that room? Should I be exploring smaller options instead?
Old 5th August 2020
  #3
plx
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parkhill View Post
I'm giving serious consideration to purchasing a pair of Focal trio 11be monitors. I'm concerned they might be oversized for my room though. The space is 19 feet long and 13.5 feet wide. It is well treated with broadband absorption, bass traps, diffusion and a cloud.

What do you think? Will the Trio 11's be too much monitor for that room? Should I be exploring smaller options instead?
**** smaller options.
my room is 17.7 x 11.2.

i have them pushed against the corners in what is soon going to be a "faux" soffit.
room is heavily treated with limp membrane absorbers.

i'm about 2,2m from them and they're around 2,6 meters apart.

These things are a blast - very low distortion, very fast almost across the full range (30-50Hz is a bit sloppy) and they're fun.

Go get 'em
Old 5th August 2020
  #4
Here for the gear
 

Hi Parkhill,

Maybe I can help.

At first glance, I'd say your room is on the small side of things. If you're using the 'ol 38% rule that would put your mix position 7' 3" from the back wall. Ideally, you'll be 4-5 feet away from the monitor. They're 13" deep, so it would put the monitor a foot or so from the wall. That's pretty tight.

A few questions that may give us some more insight:

- What monitors are you using now?
- How accurate have you found the low end so far? Especially below 200 Hz.
- Is your space purpose built or was an existing space treated? When you get into the low 30 Hz area, you'll be surprised at what structure-born resonances you find.

Have you considered Trio6? They don't extend quite as low and don't have as much power, but they're remarkably similar to their big brother. That would be my initial gut recommendation based on what you've said so far.
Old 5th August 2020
  #5
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parkhill View Post
I'm giving serious consideration to purchasing a pair of Focal trio 11be monitors. I'm concerned they might be oversized for my room though. The space is 19 feet long and 13.5 feet wide. It is well treated with broadband absorption, bass traps, diffusion and a cloud.

What do you think? Will the Trio 11's be too much monitor for that room? Should I be exploring smaller options instead?
The relation between the room size and the woofer size is a myth.
An issue at 60hz is the same with a 8 pouces or a 21 pouces.
The distortion will not be the same at 60 hz with a 8 pouces and a 21 pouces.

This subject has been treated on GS.
If you use the search tool, you will find.
The bigger as possible.

The trio11 is a little speaker compared a focal Utopia or an Atc 300.
Old 5th August 2020
  #6
plx
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Hi Parkhill,

Maybe I can help.

At first glance, I'd say your room is on the small side of things. If you're using the 'ol 38% rule that would put your mix position 7' 3" from the back wall. Ideally, you'll be 4-5 feet away from the monitor. They're 13" deep, so it would put the monitor a foot or so from the wall. That's pretty tight.

A few questions that may give us some more insight:

- What monitors are you using now?
- How accurate have you found the low end so far? Especially below 200 Hz.
- Is your space purpose built or was an existing space treated? When you get into the low 30 Hz area, you'll be surprised at what structure-born resonances you find.

Have you considered Trio6? They don't extend quite as low and don't have as much power, but they're remarkably similar to their big brother. That would be my initial gut recommendation based on what you've said so far.
damn i wish focal europe were this responsive :(
Not op, but while i'm here i'll hijack you, is it normal for the Trio11 to have a little port farting in focus mode?

Also, i got a much better response from the Trio11 when i pushed them AGAINST the wall. My room modes are tamed, but SBIRs are still an issue. When they were down on the stands around 3ft from the wall the low end was absolutely worse.

(The 380 dip is because i haven't tamed the walls around the actual speakers yet)

I also have them flipped on their head and baffles rotated 180 degrees.

(the measurement is no EQ and no correction on the back of the speaker)
Attached Thumbnails
Focal Trio11 too big-screenshot-2020-08-05-19.10.12.jpg  
Old 5th August 2020
  #7
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
The relation between the room size and the woofer size is a myth.
An issue at 60hz is the same with a 8 pouces or a 21 pouces.
The distortion will not be the same at 60 hz with a 8 pouces and a 21 pouces.

This subject has been treated on GS.
If you use the search tool, you will find.
The bigger as possible.

The trio11 is a little speaker compared a focal Utopia or an Atc 300.
I think his concern is rooted in his room size, not speaker size. At 30 Hz, a single cycle is 37' long. That's tough for any small room to handle with any kind of accuracy.
Old 5th August 2020
  #8
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by plx View Post
damn i wish focal europe were this responsive :(
Not op, but while i'm here i'll hijack you, is it normal for the Trio11 to have a little port farting in focus mode?

Also, i got a much better response from the Trio11 when i pushed them AGAINST the wall. My room modes are tamed, but SBIRs are still an issue. When they were down on the stands around 3ft from the wall the low end was absolutely worse.

(The 380 dip is because i haven't tamed the walls around the actual speakers yet)

I also have them flipped on their head and baffles rotated 180 degrees.

(the measurement is no EQ and no correction on the back of the speaker)

Sorry about that. I can certainly connect you with the appropriate people in Europe. C-19 has been a challenge to say the least. Drop me a PM.

At high levels, yes. The LF woofer in the Trios are actually built in an independent cabinet that's ported separately from the mid/tweeter. The moment we shunt the energy from the LF woofer to the mid driver and change the crossover frequencies, we have a lot less headroom and the midrange has to work harder to reproduce the program content. The benefit of the feature was great enough to outweigh that specific downside. We find users are using them in 3-way mode 95% of the time anyways.

In regards to the positioning and response, it's really room and level dependent. In most live end/dead end designs the response of a front ported speaker is often improved as it gets closer to the wall. The closer to the boundary, the less LF cancellation, the more perceived low end focus assuming the room is treated well.

I can't see frequency and amplitude on your graph, but I've seen much worth. What smoothing is that? 6db?
Old 5th August 2020
  #9
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I think his concern is rooted in his room size, not speaker size. At 30 Hz, a single cycle is 37' long. That's tough for any small room to handle with any kind of accuracy.
Not and not,

A speaker is omnidirectional until 400 hz.
In the majority of the room the bass and low mid are in mono until 300hz.
The wavelength is out of scope.

Regarding the woofer size, the issue is the distortion, the directivity for woofer cut high and the spl capability low frequency for those are addict to the high spl.

Again the interaction between the room and the front wave emit by the woofer has been explained on the ACOUSTIC forum of GS.

Last edited by dinococcus; 5th August 2020 at 06:58 PM.. Reason: Correction
Old 5th August 2020
  #10
plx
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Sorry about that. I can certainly connect you with the appropriate people in Europe. C-19 has been a challenge to say the least. Drop me a PM.

At high levels, yes. The LF woofer in the Trios are actually built in an independent cabinet that's ported separately from the mid/tweeter. The moment we shunt the energy from the LF woofer to the mid driver and change the crossover frequencies, we have a lot less headroom and the midrange has to work harder to reproduce the program content. The benefit of the feature was great enough to outweigh that specific downside. We find users are using them in 3-way mode 95% of the time anyways.

In regards to the positioning and response, it's really room and level dependent. In most live end/dead end designs the response of a front ported speaker is often improved as it gets closer to the wall. The closer to the boundary, the less LF cancellation, the more perceived low end focus assuming the room is treated well.

I can't see frequency and amplitude on your graph, but I've seen much worth. What smoothing is that? 6db?
1/6th of an octave yeah.
my room design is ... NRE-ish.
I have limp-membrane absorbers all around, 30-40cm thick + 30cm on the ceiling and the floor is heavy carpet. RT60 is... not that much.

i reuploaded the graph. I'll do another measurement as soon as soft-soffit is done, waiting for the woofers to arrive to stick them above the trios.

pretty sure the 380Hz dip is because of the bare walls in the back, that'll get stuffed with rockwool before i close them down.
i'll need to figure out some venting tho since the amps are in the back. not that i'm worried, they don't get hot at all.

This is the position i ended up with after trying them around. Used to have Twin 6 before (now in my girlfriends room) and they absolutely didn't work in the same position as the twins.

i'll drop you a line, thank you so much

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
Not and not,

A speaker is omnidirectional until 400 hz.
In the majority of the room the bass are in mono until 300hz.
The wavelength is out of scope.

Regarding the woofer size, the issue is the distortion, the directivity for woofer cut high and the spl capability low frequency for those are addict to the high spl.

Again the interaction between the room and the front wave emit by the woofer has been explained on the ACOUSTIC forum of GS.
I put a woofer (JL Audio F112) on top of the trio, xovered at 80Hz with the trios. You can tell me in theory how everything is mono below 300Hz all day long - the stereo image was leaning heavily towards the woofer and it's unpleasant.

bottom line:
my room is smaller than OP's, and i don't think Trio11 are too big for it. I think they're just right and i'm really happy i went with 11's instead of 6s.
Attached Thumbnails
Focal Trio11 too big-screenshot-2020-08-05-19.45.08.jpg   Focal Trio11 too big-img_8305.jpg  
Old 5th August 2020
  #11
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
Not and not,

A speaker is omnidirectional until 400 hz.
In the majority of the room the bass are in mono until 300hz.
The wavelength is out of scope.

Regarding the woofer size, the issue is the distortion, the directivity for woofer cut high and the spl capability low frequency for those are addict to the high spl.

Again the interaction between the room and the front wave emit by the woofer has been explained on the ACOUSTIC forum of GS.

I think it's important not to lose focus on the OP's topic here. LF energy is omnidirectional, no doubt, but there's no denying low frequencies amplify room mode and LF phase issues. That's all I'm saying. We really need more info on the OP's room before making any broad assumptions.
Old 5th August 2020
  #12
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by plx View Post
1/6th of an octave yeah.
my room design is ... NRE-ish.
I have limp-membrane absorbers all around, 30-40cm thick + 30cm on the ceiling and the floor is heavy carpet. RT60 is... not that much.

i reuploaded the graph. I'll do another measurement as soon as soft-soffit is done, waiting for the woofers to arrive to stick them above the trios.

pretty sure the 380Hz dip is because of the bare walls in the back, that'll get stuffed with rockwool before i close them down.
i'll need to figure out some venting tho since the amps are in the back. not that i'm worried, they don't get hot at all.

This is the position i ended up with after trying them around. Used to have Twin 6 before (now in my girlfriends room) and they absolutely didn't work in the same position as the twins.

i'll drop you a line, thank you so much



I put a woofer (JL Audio F112) on top of the trio, xovered at 80Hz with the trios. You can tell me in theory how everything is mono below 300Hz all day long - the stereo image was leaning heavily towards the woofer and it's unpleasant.

bottom line:
my room is smaller than OP's, and i don't think Trio11 are too big for it. I think they're just right and i'm really happy i went with 11's instead of 6s.
Great looking room. Like I eluded earlier, I'm always hesitant say anything definitive with any setup because they're all different. You've obviously thought long and hard about your room treatment and it shows in your measurements. Impressive. The unfortunate reality is a good chunk of producers/musicians/engineers don't understand the value of treating a room properly and how it dictates the performance of their monitoring system.
Old 5th August 2020
  #13
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by plx View Post
I put a woofer (JL Audio F112) on top of the trio, xovered at 80Hz with the trios. You can tell me in theory how everything is mono below 300Hz all day long .
The cut frequency or Schroeder Frequency are statisticaly find at 300 hz. Under this frequency this is the room who play.
Old 19th August 2020
  #14
Wow! I thought this thread was dead after the first week. Thank you all for the great input. I'll check out that link and also reply to the questions posed.
Old 19th August 2020
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Hi Parkhill,

Maybe I can help.

At first glance, I'd say your room is on the small side of things. If you're using the 'ol 38% rule that would put your mix position 7' 3" from the back wall. Ideally, you'll be 4-5 feet away from the monitor. They're 13" deep, so it would put the monitor a foot or so from the wall. That's pretty tight.

A few questions that may give us some more insight:

- What monitors are you using now?
- How accurate have you found the low end so far? Especially below 200 Hz.
- Is your space purpose built or was an existing space treated? When you get into the low 30 Hz area, you'll be surprised at what structure-born resonances you find.

Have you considered Trio6? They don't extend quite as low and don't have as much power, but they're remarkably similar to their big brother. That would be my initial gut recommendation based on what you've said so far.
Hi Joshua,

I am currently using some JBL LSR4328's that I've owned for almost 15 years. They are the model with the room correction feature. I think they only go down to 50hz. They have served me well but I've been upgrading everything in my setup over the past year. I'd like to move to a 3-way monitor. I also have some avantone mix cubes and various headphones I check mixes on.

The room is purpose built to a degree. What I mean by that is that it did not exist before this project but it is also in a house. As such some concessions were made. I set the dimensions on purpose but did not do things like splay the walls. There is no dry wall on the ceiling. Instead it is 12 inches of insulation exposed to sound the waves (with a fabric covering for appearance and fiber containment). Essentially it's a giant cloud opposite the floor. I also have super chunk bass traps in each corner. They are 20 inches wide and 24 inches deep, running floor to ceiling. I have a similar sized trap on the floor of the front wall. The net result is that the only real corners in the room are where the floor meets the rear and side walls. There is a window on the front wall behind the speakers looking into the main tracking room. I also have broadband absorption at the first reflection points and diffussion elsewhere. There is a small couch centered in the back of the room against the wall.

The room is reasonably flat overall. Not perfect obviously. There is a dip between 80-100hz that only shows up on the left speaker in REW. I have more testing to do there to determine if it is caused by the room/placement or if something is wrong with the actual speaker. My desk is height adjustable (motorized) so that's very flexible in terms of small tweaks to address desk reflections.

I have considered the Trio 6be but I like the extra benefits of the 11 if it will work for my space, especially the mid driver isolation (not talking about focus mode). I likely won't mix any louder on the 11 than I would on the 6.
Old 20th August 2020
  #16
plx
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parkhill View Post
Hi Joshua,

I have considered the Trio 6be but I like the extra benefits of the 11 if it will work for my space, especially the mid driver isolation (not talking about focus mode). I likely won't mix any louder on the 11 than I would on the 6.
the mid driver is better on the 11, and more headroom = less distortion

i don't mix extra loud either, and i have a room that's even smaller than yours (also very treated)

i will flushmount them in a week or so, but i don't regret the trio 11 one bit, and i wouldn't even if i didn't flush them.
Old 20th August 2020
  #17
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parkhill View Post
Hi Joshua,

I am currently using some JBL LSR4328's that I've owned for almost 15 years. They are the model with the room correction feature. I think they only go down to 50hz. They have served me well but I've been upgrading everything in my setup over the past year. I'd like to move to a 3-way monitor. I also have some avantone mix cubes and various headphones I check mixes on.

The room is purpose built to a degree. What I mean by that is that it did not exist before this project but it is also in a house. As such some concessions were made. I set the dimensions on purpose but did not do things like splay the walls. There is no dry wall on the ceiling. Instead it is 12 inches of insulation exposed to sound the waves (with a fabric covering for appearance and fiber containment). Essentially it's a giant cloud opposite the floor. I also have super chunk bass traps in each corner. They are 20 inches wide and 24 inches deep, running floor to ceiling. I have a similar sized trap on the floor of the front wall. The net result is that the only real corners in the room are where the floor meets the rear and side walls. There is a window on the front wall behind the speakers looking into the main tracking room. I also have broadband absorption at the first reflection points and diffussion elsewhere. There is a small couch centered in the back of the room against the wall.

The room is reasonably flat overall. Not perfect obviously. There is a dip between 80-100hz that only shows up on the left speaker in REW. I have more testing to do there to determine if it is caused by the room/placement or if something is wrong with the actual speaker. My desk is height adjustable (motorized) so that's very flexible in terms of small tweaks to address desk reflections.

I have considered the Trio 6be but I like the extra benefits of the 11 if it will work for my space, especially the mid driver isolation (not talking about focus mode). I likely won't mix any louder on the 11 than I would on the 6.
It sounds like you've done a great job treating the space. To be honest, I'm confident both the 6 and 11 would work well. The 11 definitely sounds more open, but that's really due to the headroom and overall size of the cabinet. If you're listening at an appropriate level the Trios sound like they'd be fine. Whenever you get to that point, drop me a PM and I'm happy to see if it's possible to arrange a trial for you. Getting them in your space for a bit is the only real way to know if they'll work for you and your space or not.
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