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Michael Brauer has gone ITB!!!
Old 6th August 2020
  #421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
The one thing which puzzles me is:

MB going from SSL to hybrid = 10 % better sound
MB going from hybrid to ITB = 10 % better sound

So does MB ITB sound 20 % better than on SSL ?
He never said any of those transitions made him sound 10% better. He said he had to adjust every time. After ditching the SSL he had to slightly recalibrate the ABCD hardware because it sounded different. The main difference was that he quickly noticed that without the SSL the sound had more bandwidth. He wasn't used to that, so he adjusted and was very happy with the sound.
Same when going ITB. He spent a lot of time matching the sound of his hardware and experimenting with different plugins/chains. He had to adjust again. When bx came with SSL 9000J, that gave him more confidence because there was exactly his desk sound available again.
Old 6th August 2020
  #422
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
IMHO that last step is more like -10%.
(maybe more around negative 5% compared to OTB/Hybrid)

Sorry, Classic Hardware still generally sounds better. Just listen to more comparative shootouts.
Never have heard ITB win out, unless the Hardware version, never existed in the first place!
Chris
I heard mixes that sounded wonderfully analog and later discovered they were 100% ITB. I heard mixes that sounded awfully harsh and digital and later learned they were done analog. I don't think it matters. What matters is the mix sounding good. With today's plugin technology, if your mix doesn't sound good, it's not because you were 100% ITB. Quality hardware may get you there faster and do something more magical before breaking up. But that's an extra 5% no one outside the studio cares about.
I have a blind shootout around here with two hardware and four software SSL bus compressors. As soon as their action is calibrated and gain matched, people have a hard time telling any difference. Many favor a plugin.
Old 6th August 2020
  #423
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
Good points. I just like the relatively recent interview, where they asked Al Schmitt about Analog and Digital.
Such a Gentleman, and I can't believe he's 90 now! Anyway, he viewpoint was Analog is still slightly superior, but you can still make great sounding records Digitally.
I think that's a fair assessment.
Chris
I'd agree with Al. (If the topic is audio, that's a pretty safe bet anyways.)

I think Analog is better. It is according to my ears.
But lately for me the question is to what degree and is it to a point where it matters in the context of a mix? Is it to a degree that's worth giving up the ability to jump from session to session with total recall? That ability makes me more creative. I can be working on something and stumble upon something that's just right for the session I was working on previously and go between the two as I get the urge to.

At some point what we see as more convenient becomes more freedom to be creative.


Also,

If Michael says he can combine plugs to eliminate most of his hardware, I believe him when he sells it off.

At the end of the day it's all about the music. Given the state of our industry and the quality of tools available, it makes sense that more guys would be ITB.
Old 6th August 2020
  #424
Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
I'd agree with Al. (If the topic is audio, that's a pretty safe bet anyways.)

I think Analog is better. It is according to my ears.
But lately for me the question is to what degree and is it to a point where it matters in the context of a mix? Is it to a degree that's worth giving up the ability to jump from session to session with total recall? That ability makes me more creative. I can be working on something and stumble upon something that's just right for the session I was working on previously and go between the two as I get the urge to.

At some point what we see as more convenient becomes more freedom to be creative.


Also,

If Michael says he can combine plugs to eliminate most of his hardware, I believe him when he sells it off.

At the end of the day it's all about the music. Given the state of our industry and the quality of tools available, it makes sense that more guys would be ITB.
Ha, absolutely - if the topic is audio, you'd better not disagree with Al if you wanna maintains ome credibility.

Agree with you totally. I have select hardware pieces forming the backbone of a customized Brauerize setup. So every track goes through HW, most of them twice, some more often. Because those pieces are calibrated I never touch them and have no problems with recall. That said, some mixes I have to do ITB are not inferior because of that.

I'm sure especially Michael wouldn't sell his towers if he wasn't sure he can get the sound he wants. And from everything he says, he is pretty damn sure.
Old 6th August 2020
  #425
Gear Maniac
 
SonicStrike's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
The one thing which puzzles me is:

MB going from SSL to hybrid = 10 % better sound
MB going from hybrid to ITB = 10 % better sound

So does MB ITB sound 20 % better than on SSL ?
Honestly, I doubt can be better sonically, maybe different but considering the hassle, the recall, the maintenance, and all the inconvenience, the sonic difference being not so big at all.... I think is not worth it.

Now, he is keeping certain pieces of hw gear that" maybe":

a)He may use in the 2 bus
b)His assistant may run and print certain tracks with those HW gear


Also MB, is a guy that like changes and challenges, maybe he feels that the ITB sonics is something refreshing/different and maybe under that perspective better....also ITB mixing creates new challenges and that may be a good and a new interesting journey.

Anyway, he is amazing and he can make a mix sounds great under any new system.

Seems he is happy and that is a good thing!
Old 6th August 2020
  #426
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicStrike View Post

Also MB, is a guy that like changes and challenges, maybe he feels that the ITB sonics is something refreshing/different and maybe under that perspective better....also ITB mixing creates new challenges and that may be a good and a new interesting journey.

Anyway, he is amazing and he can make a mix sounds great under any new system.
Agreed, however it´s probably a mixture of
financial necessity to move forward because of changing times
(mainly due to COVID 19) and the creative side.

With an itb setup he can basically mix at home
without studio cost, even without an assistant
since Pro Tolls recalls itself.

So it´s a retraction sold as an advance.
Only New York guys can do that

Anyway I really respect his decision and being straight by selling his stuff.
Allways found it a bit strange watching Andrew Scheps mixing fully ITB
with a wall of analog gear sitting behind him in a huge rack.

P.S. And I can´t wait hearing his crazy bright PA SSL J presets in a clear DAW context...
without all the fuzzy analog circuitry in between
Old 7th August 2020
  #427
Gear Maniac
 
SonicStrike's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
Allways found it a bit strange watching Andrew Scheps mixing fully ITB
with a wall of analog gear sitting behind him in a huge rack.
Well, the gear looks cool and is also a romantic thing plus an statement of the video being Pro.

Like why all those renown Mixers (ex Analog Big Console/ cool gear Guys) are in those Mixing videos mixing ITB but in front of an SSL and around of a lot of great HW gear?.... make the video look more Pro and provides confidence and reassurance to the people that watch it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post

P.S. And I can´t wait hearing his crazy bright PA SSL J presets in a clear DAW context...
without all the fuzzy analog circuitry in between
Well that SSL with all the circuits have to color and change the frequency response of what is going thru..... highs for sure and even low end.
Old 7th August 2020
  #428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
P.S. And I can´t wait hearing his crazy bright PA SSL J presets in a clear DAW context...
without all the fuzzy analog circuitry in between
Crazy bright? I thought that was CLA's domain.
Old 7th August 2020
  #429
UGP
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
not all famous mixers fund their retirement home off their name. David Bendeth gave me a rundown on his Lexicon PCM 42 - that it had been used on Whitney Houston and Hall and Oates, and most recently on the last Paramore album he mixed. It also had the full extended memory (3600 ms, I think). Then sold it to me for $700 even though he said, "I know I can get a lot more but you appreciate them
Same experience here. I bought David’s RMX 16 and 480L - he was very fair with the price and more than willing to discuss how he used them for vocals and snare. He spent about an hour on the phone with me talking about recording/production and questions I had on the Breaking Benjamin albums. David rocks.
Old 7th August 2020
  #430
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loji's Avatar
People also forget the expectation of the client changes ... not just in regards to recall, workflow, etc ..... but the aesthetic desired.

Music is a fashion trend ... the gear/sound of the 80's was different from the 60's and 70's .... the 90's different than 2010's ... clients these days expect a certain sound. Generally very wide bandwidth compared to yesteryear ---

Someone as smart at Michael, with this many years under his belt knows how to follow the trend... you don't get that kind of client list by sticking to 'vintage' and refusing to make contemporary sounds. That often means using contemporary tools. (in the 80's that was SSL, today it's PT).

"The times, they are a-changing" as they always have, and always will
Old 7th August 2020
  #431
Lives for gear
 

Agree, but didn't get objectively better in terms of sonic advancement. Economical yes.
Chris
Old 7th August 2020
  #432
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
Agree, but didn't get objectively better in terms of sonic advancement. Economical yes.
Chris
Except the music itself has changed. You can't separate modern mixing from the genre and there's not a single thing outside of speculation that modern genres would sound better with vintage sounds.
Old 7th August 2020
  #433
Lives for gear
 

True. As you may suspect, I haven't done the same degree of listening, to Modern Pop Genres. I'll spend some more time listening to MB's Mixes, past and present for better reference, for one thing.
Chris
Old 8th August 2020
  #434
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Plush's Avatar
After 37 years of mixing with a Neve console, I am now in the box with Magix Sequoia. I'm in classical music recording.
A good and proper influence was George Massenburg who told me to stop summing the sound of 24 d/a converters. After testing he was right. And this was with very fancy converters. Formerly I used a LOT of very expensive and exotic gear to do the mixes.

Also of course with Sequoia the ability to recall mixes and revise them. I am always asked to do that.

My high res recordings sound much better never leaving the digital domain. Better detail, my precious depth is preserved, better preservation of spatial detail for example.

If progress is available, I did not want to be too stubborn to try it.

Now I am selling off that expensive gear and using it for my family fun.

Last edited by Plush; 8th August 2020 at 03:11 PM..
Old 8th August 2020
  #435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
After 37 years of mixing with a Neve console, I am now in the box with Magix Sequoia. I'm in classical music recording.
A good and proper influence was George Massenburg who told me to stop using 24 d/a converters to sum my mix. He said my sound is suffering from all those d/a converters. After testing he was right. And this was with very fancy converters. Formerly I used a LOT of very expensive and exotic gear to do the mixes.

Also of course with Sequoia the ability to recall mixes and revise them. I am always asked to do that.

My high res recordings sound much better never leaving the digital domain. Better detail, my precious depth is preserved, better preservation of spatial detail for example.

If progress is available, I did not want to be too stubborn to try it.

Now I am selling off that expensive gear and using it for my family fun.
Amen to that, brother!

Happy mixer, happy family = win win
Old 8th August 2020
  #436
Lives for gear
 
santibanks's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicStrike View Post
Well, the gear looks cool and is also a romantic thing plus an statement of the video being Pro.

Like why all those renown Mixers (ex Analog Big Console/ cool gear Guys) are in those Mixing videos mixing ITB but in front of an SSL and around of a lot of great HW gear?.... make the video look more Pro and provides confidence and reassurance to the people that watch it
Depends a bit who you are watching. But the point is of course that anyone who gets such a mix video is often working ITB.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
You can't separate modern mixing from the genre and there's not a single thing outside of speculation that modern genres would sound better with vintage sounds.
Or, as touched upon earlier in the thread, can't separate modern mixing from the modern music industry (or rather what's left of that) and technological innovations.

And to be frank, I think modern genres would already sound better if they were less loud… I cannot play anything from today on soundcloud, youtube, spotify, whatever without my converters not going in the reds.
Old 8th August 2020
  #437
Lives for gear
 
Fidelis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
After 37 years of mixing with a Neve console, I am now in the box with Magix Sequoia. I'm in classical music recording.
A good and proper influence was George Massenburg who told me to stop summing the sound of 24 d/a converters. After testing he was right. And this was with very fancy converters. Formerly I used a LOT of very expensive and exotic gear to do the mixes.

Also of course with Sequoia the ability to recall mixes and revise them. I am always asked to do that.

My high res recordings sound much better never leaving the digital domain. Better detail, my precious depth is preserved, better preservation of spatial detail for example.

If progress is available, I did not want to be too stubborn to try it.

Now I am selling off that expensive gear and using it for my family fun.
Thanks for Sharing!
Old 12th August 2020
  #438
Gear Addict
 
Pyxis360's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
Except the music itself has changed. You can't separate modern mixing from the genre and there's not a single thing outside of speculation that modern genres would sound better with vintage sounds.
I've read and enjoyed a lot of your stuff through the years but I'm reading you now on this thread and you're confusing me with numerous declarations that are not accurate. Leaving aside the "Julia Childs fav restaurant is McDonalds!". Maybe you're leaving a lot out but all I read is the quick comments that leave me perplexed.

"Music itself has changed"

Of course, some has and some has not. There's plenty of music that is not the current most played flavor that is being recorded using analog means with consoles and tapes and sounds incredible.

"there's not a single thing outside of speculation that modern genres would sound better with vintage sounds."

This just simply is not true. How on earth would you know this? This is the problem in a nutshell. Yes Brauer has gone ITB but can we hear Brauer do the same exact mix ITB vs a Neve 80 series to tape so then we can compare? No because we all would realize what's missing and it wouldn't be "5%"

I've been spending the week going over ITB mixes. I like Kevin Killen, he's mixing in the box and not doing the whole current "add as much digital distortion as the song can possibly hold" like a lot of other mixers. For example he did Paul Cole's Courage ITB in 2007 -

tidal.com/browse/track/37905046?play=true

This was mixed in the box and sounds good. It's not my favorite music but it sounds well made and was certainly recorded and mixed by the best.

Now compare this mix. Mark Knopfler in 2011 mixed at British Grove studios by Chuck Ainlay on an API Legacy to tape -

tidal.com/browse/track/16763820?play=true

The songs are different and opinions will vary but to me there is very little comparison to the tone/vibe and depth here. If you feel otherwise that's fine but I would say listen over time, live with it for awhile and be sure to listen outside your laptop speakers. In other words invest time in a decent comparison between the two.

Last edited by Pyxis360; 12th August 2020 at 07:41 PM.. Reason: added hyper links
Old 13th August 2020
  #439
Lives for gear
 
santibanks's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyxis360 View Post
"there's not a single thing outside of speculation that modern genres would sound better with vintage sounds."

This just simply is not true. How on earth would you know this?
Depends on the definition of vintage sounds… But if we are discussing aesthetics, then I actually think he has a point here. Vintage sound is an aesthetic, a particular kind of colour. Modern music genres seem to have a very different aesthetic to me. Overly loud, hyped, clean, a wider perceived frequency range (just because the lows get exaggerated more nowadays), and completely different in it's sound spectrum as the sounds and instruments used differ vastly from what you will hear in "vintage" music (i.e. anything 60ies/70ies).

Or to put it differently: the 80ies saw the popularity of a newer generation of consoles (like the SSL's). The aesthetics of the music changed, the sound changed, and so did the gear. The DX7, a drummachine, and some slap bass along with a guitar with active EMG's made your 80ies track. Mellotrons, Rhodes, Hammonds, Les pauls through cranked Marshalls, Fuzz and Phaser pedals were not welcome… It is really not hard to see that the claim that modern music demands modern techniques and technology makes sense.

Quote:
This is the problem in a nutshell. Yes Brauer has gone ITB but can we hear Brauer do the same exact mix ITB vs a Neve 80 series to tape so then we can compare? No because we all would realize what's missing and it wouldn't be "5%"
I think some of the CLA MWTM series have episodes were CLA recreates a mix ITB which he did on the console using the Waves stuff.
The main caveat of course being that it is virtually impossible to recreate a mix 1 on 1 itb vs outb. But that aside, it's actually not clear to me that even if there is a difference in sound, that the analog Neve 80 to tape would be "the winner" here.

Quote:
If you feel otherwise that's fine but I would say listen over time, live with it for awhile and be sure to listen outside your laptop speakers. In other words invest time in a decent comparison between the two.
And that's the point perhaps: it's all just opinion and taste in the end. Yes you might be able to establish a difference between them. But what does that actually mean in relation to the music?
Old 13th August 2020
  #440
Lives for gear
 

I still wouldn't "Throw the Vintage baby, out with the Bathwater". Leggo of my Fairchild!

FWIW (Pre-Pandemic) I'd get a few PM's here a year... From Rap/Hip Hop guys, regarding potential Collaboration. I'd get to be the "Olde Skool Male Soul" style singer, they could add in. Sorta like the Old Guy, at the 'Hood Hardware Store, of song! If you needed a certain part. LOL.

Vocal example clip below, for your general amusement.
Chris
Attached Files

Song 73ImgonnaloveyouP120.mp3 (482.8 KB, 1607 views)

Old 14th August 2020
  #441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyxis360 View Post
I've read and enjoyed a lot of your stuff through the years but I'm reading you now on this thread and you're confusing me with numerous declarations that are not accurate. Leaving aside the "Julia Childs fav restaurant is McDonalds!". Maybe you're leaving a lot out but all I read is the quick comments that leave me perplexed.

"Music itself has changed"

Of course, some has and some has not. There's plenty of music that is not the current most played flavor that is being recorded using analog means with consoles and tapes and sounds incredible.

"there's not a single thing outside of speculation that modern genres would sound better with vintage sounds."

This just simply is not true. How on earth would you know this? This is the problem in a nutshell. Yes Brauer has gone ITB but can we hear Brauer do the same exact mix ITB vs a Neve 80 series to tape so then we can compare? No because we all would realize what's missing and it wouldn't be "5%"

I've been spending the week going over ITB mixes. I like Kevin Killen, he's mixing in the box and not doing the whole current "add as much digital distortion as the song can possibly hold" like a lot of other mixers. For example he did Paul Cole's Courage ITB in 2007 -

tidal.com/browse/track/37905046?play=true

This was mixed in the box and sounds good. It's not my favorite music but it sounds well made and was certainly recorded and mixed by the best.

Now compare this mix. Mark Knopfler in 2011 mixed at British Grove studios by Chuck Ainlay on an API Legacy to tape -

tidal.com/browse/track/16763820?play=true

The songs are different and opinions will vary but to me there is very little comparison to the tone/vibe and depth here. If you feel otherwise that's fine but I would say listen over time, live with it for awhile and be sure to listen outside your laptop speakers. In other words invest time in a decent comparison between the two.
Mark Knopfler is not what I would call a modern genre. It may be a modern recording, but that's not the same thing as a genre.

Find an EDM track that was mixed both ways or a modern pop track that was mixed both ways and then you can make your case.

Realistically, you're not going to find that, so it's only possible to speculate on which would sound better.


Julia Childs said that McDonalds was her favorite restaurant in a TV interview.
Old 14th August 2020
  #442
Quote:
Originally Posted by santibanks View Post
Depends on the definition of vintage sounds… But if we are discussing aesthetics, then I actually think he has a point here. Vintage sound is an aesthetic, a particular kind of colour. Modern music genres seem to have a very different aesthetic to me. Overly loud, hyped, clean, a wider perceived frequency range (just because the lows get exaggerated more nowadays), and completely different in it's sound spectrum as the sounds and instruments used differ vastly from what you will hear in "vintage" music (i.e. anything 60ies/70ies).
Exactly. Emily Lazar made a great point during at panel at the first Tape Op conference in response to the criticism that music doesn't sound as good quantized to the grid. Her response is there are genres like hip hop where that's part of the genre.

The criticism of the sounds of a mix or a mixing medium make no sense if you're comparing separate genres because, in theory, the genre is dictating the results, not the medium.

And after that, in theory it's the artist and the producer and the mix engineer that are dictating the results based on their esthetic choices.

Maybe it's only theoretical and they're not able to chose different results because they're limited by the medium, but we're not in a position to know that from listening, only through speculating that they weren't able to get the results they were actually trying for and that was caused by the medium.
Old 14th August 2020
  #443
Lives for gear
 

IMHO some songs and their performances...
Will always transcend the twin Creative shackles, of Grid and Genre.
Chris
Old 14th August 2020
  #444
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
Exactly. Emily Lazar made a great point during at panel at the first Tape Op conference in response to the criticism that music doesn't sound as good quantized to the grid. Her response is there are genres like hip hop where that's part of the genre.
It is not part of the genre. Most hip hop involve the use of samples played by musicians, usually from the past, thus the groove they are getting is 100% un-quantized most of the time.
Then the rest of the production might be on grid, but the backbone of most well known tracks is a pitched and stretched, solid human drummer and his human non-quantized groove.
Old 14th August 2020
  #445
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loji's Avatar
Like most, it's up to the artist, and their specific skill-set ...

Dr. Dre used 2" tape layback ...

Quest Love trained for years and years to play live so tightly/accurately he sounded like a 'drum machine' (and uses a minimal mic set-up including ribbon transducer)

Wu-Tang utilized bit-crushed samples both as an aesthetic, and as a necessity of their original means.

3x very different ways of making hip-hop ... but would a DJ play a Dre tune, WuTang, and The Roots back-to-back in a set? 100% ... Neither the medium nor style of recording lifted one of these artists as 'better', more successful, or more 'true' to their genres form.. .

Humans listen for creativity.

an oil painter and a digital compositor can both render a realistic (or stylistic) sunset ... the viewer will understand the visual message and likely respond more to one of the other based on their prior experiences, environment they view it in, and their expectations

Or a closer example: the same picture can be taken on 35mm film, or a medium format digital camera .... The capture plane (medium) has less to do with the resultant quality than the glass, composition, and skill of the photographer. . . and many have turned to Digital for the same reasons as us in audio ... cost, time, and client expectations

Yet no one is saying photography has suffered vs the 1970's . . .

Last edited by loji; 14th August 2020 at 10:23 PM..
Old 14th August 2020
  #446
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

I remember Digidesign doing a blind shootout between an SSL and their Icon console running the waves SSL plug-ins. An amazing number of people couldn't tell the difference. DAWs have come a long way since then!
Old 14th August 2020
  #447
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
I remember Digidesign doing a blind shootout between an SSL and their Icon console running the waves SSL plug-ins. An amazing number of people couldn't tell the difference. DAWs have come a long way since then!
I'm always amazed at the number of people who can't hear aliasing or who are "timbre" deaf. It's how we get 2d "Waves mixes" or songs where different tracks in the mixed were processed using wildly different sounding hardware or plugins that don't blend at all. The effect is similar to a mishmash of disparate reverbs.

Yeah I found a lot of people can't tell the difference between hardware, the Waves SSL bus comp, and the Glue despite drastic harmonic differences and the Waves' sidechain doing god knows what. To them... it's all "clean" even though it's not.
Old 15th August 2020
  #448
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioloud View Post
It is not part of the genre. Most hip hop involve the use of samples played by musicians, usually from the past, thus the groove they are getting is 100% un-quantized most of the time.
Then the rest of the production might be on grid, but the backbone of most well known tracks is a pitched and stretched, solid human drummer and his human non-quantized groove.
Listen to what's on the radio.

The majority of hip hop productions are on the grid. Even the samples are triggered on the grid and they can be aligned to it.

There are even genres of rock where quantized live drums are part of it.
Old 15th August 2020
  #449
Lives for gear
 

"Listen to what's on the radio".
Please do you have to remind me?

(paging Rick Beato)

Chris
Old 15th August 2020
  #450
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
Listen to what's on the radio.

The majority of hip hop productions are on the grid. Even the samples are triggered on the grid and they can be aligned to it.

There are even genres of rock where quantized live drums are part of it.
(paging Rick Beato)

Chris
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