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Michael Brauer has gone ITB!!!
Old 3rd August 2020
  #391
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Pyxis360's Avatar
 

Recalls now are so ingrained in the process of making albums especially on Brauer's level with so many people involved and so many requests that hardware is just in the way, it's slow and cumbersome. This 100% plays into professional mixers decisions and keeping competitive.

I have some great hardware and all the plugins. If you sit down and do a variety of listening tests and can't hear any difference that's fine. I hear a difference and it's most of the time a lot better, whether it's EQ, compression, whatever. All the other professional engineers I know making records agree with this.

That doesn't really mean anything though which is I think is the main point. You can do whatever you want and make records, there are no rules. If you've really invested in hardware and sat down and compared and have been honest with yourself and don't hear enough to care then that's great. But I just can't unhear it, it's there, it is part of reality. I'm not precious about gear at all, couldn't care less which is which, that part at least is boring, gear fetish is really lame.

I only have my own timelines though
Old 4th August 2020
  #392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyxis360 View Post
Recalls now are so ingrained in the process of making albums especially on Brauer's level with so many people involved and so many requests that hardware is just in the way, it's slow and cumbersome. This 100% plays into professional mixers decisions and keeping competitive.

I have some great hardware and all the plugins. If you sit down and do a variety of listening tests and can't hear any difference that's fine. I hear a difference and it's most of the time a lot better, whether it's EQ, compression, whatever. All the other professional engineers I know making records agree with this.

That doesn't really mean anything though which is I think is the main point. You can do whatever you want and make records, there are no rules. If you've really invested in hardware and sat down and compared and have been honest with yourself and don't hear enough to care then that's great. But I just can't unhear it, it's there, it is part of reality. I'm not precious about gear at all, couldn't care less which is which, that part at least is boring, gear fetish is really lame.

I only have my own timelines though
+1 on all that. But I'm pretty sure Michael wouldn't have made the final move from hybrid to ITB if he felt the sound he gets was inferior. That's why he kept selcet pieces he felt he couldn't replace ITB. He said he spent a lot of time A/Bing and in many cases had to use more than one plugin to replicate the sound of a single hardware device. Especially since so many of his boxes are modded. But once he got that dialed in, he said his ITB mixes sounded as good or even better. And both he and his assistants are more than happy about the time they save every day by not having to do so many realtime stem passes and checking the calibration of all the outboard gear.
Old 4th August 2020
  #393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSchlomo View Post
+1 on all that. But I'm pretty sure Michael wouldn't have made the final move from hybrid to ITB if he felt the sound he gets was inferior. That's why he kept selcet pieces he felt he couldn't replace ITB. He said he spent a lot of time A/Bing and in many cases had to use more than one plugin to replicate the sound of a single hardware device. Especially since so many of his boxes are modded. But once he got that dialed in, he said his ITB mixes sounded as good or even better. And both he and his assistants are more than happy about the time they save every day by not having to do so many realtime stem passes and checking the calibration of all the outboard gear.
Sure he said that it sounds as good, his livelihood depends on him saying that. I believe him too, I don't think he's being disingenuous.

We'll be able to listen over the next few years and judge for ourselves in any case.
Old 4th August 2020
  #394
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The funny things is th at so many people are saying recall is a bitch etc and yes it is but guys like MB grew up in an era of committing so Dunno why they don’t just print via a HW insert like I do and move on? Oops guess he’s sold his hardware now
Lol
Old 4th August 2020
  #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggy Neve Slut View Post
The funny things is th at so many people are saying recall is a bitch etc and yes it is but guys like MB grew up in an era of committing so Dunno why they don’t just print via a HW insert like I do and move on? Oops guess he’s sold his hardware now
Lol
With all those assistants I'm sure it wasn't too hard on him

Just listening now to Mike Mogis's First Aid Kit - Silver Lining. Recorded/Mixed at ARC studios on a vintage Neve 8048 and comparing to their later album Ruins mixed by Andrew Scheps which is 2018 so I'm assuming ITB. Hmm definitely know which I prefer, just me of course.
Old 4th August 2020
  #396
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Has Neil Young had any albums mixed or remixed ITB yet?

Is Green Day replacing the FOH 5088 they use on tour with a digital board?

Asking for a friend
Old 4th August 2020
  #397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
Latency has never been an issue when you really understand ADC and set up a session that gives ADC a place to compensate.

The ProTools manual doesn't adequately explain how to address complex routings, but once you follow two rules religiously it will work barring a plugin coding error.
Hi Mike,

Just wondering what your steps for checking are? I sum to 8 busses which feed my summing mixer and then print back to a track in the same session.

I feed the output busses from folder sub groups (drums, lead vocals, bvs etc)

It seems to work most of the time and I did check by pinging from the audio tracks through the bus stages but would be interested to find out your methods.

Best

Iwan
Old 4th August 2020
  #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh View Post

Is Green Day replacing the FOH 5088 they use on tour with a digital board?

Asking for a friend
I have no knowledge on Greenday's future tour plans but their latest lp release was mixed itb.

I remember Franz Ferdinand's debut lp about 20 years ago was mixed itb which sold millions. These
threads have been as common here as 1073 threads over the years.
Old 4th August 2020
  #399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P View Post
I have no knowledge on Greenday's future tour plans but their latest lp release was mixed itb.
Good answer -!
Old 4th August 2020
  #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P View Post
I have no knowledge on Greenday's future tour plans but their latest lp release was mixed itb.

I remember Franz Ferdinand's debut lp about 20 years ago was mixed itb which sold millions. These
threads have been as common here as 1073 threads over the years.
There was quite a bit of hardware going on with those recordings as well - https://www.soundonsound.com/people/...ranz-ferdinand

McDonalds sells millions of burgers too, what do we take from that?

Pure ITB mixes that I've come across don't sound that great to me. Hybrid like the Franz Ferdinand debut work great tho
Old 4th August 2020
  #401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack P View Post
I have no knowledge on Greenday's future tour plans but their latest lp release was mixed itb.
Listening now...
Old 4th August 2020
  #402
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burst's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
Latency has never been an issue when you really understand ADC and set up a session that gives ADC a place to compensate.

The ProTools manual doesn't adequately explain how to address complex routings, but once you follow two rules religiously it will work barring a plugin coding error.
Ok, but seriously, what are these two rules and where's the best place to stay up to date on any ADC Best Practices with ProTools?

Has is changed from version 2019.x to 2020?

This one thing is the source of most of my daily frustration when mixing. Integrating hardware is almost always going to be a PITA, I suspect, but I still consider a few things worth it (whether sonically or ergonomically) outside the confines of software/mouse.
Old 4th August 2020
  #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burst View Post
Integrating hardware is almost always going to be a PITA, I suspect, but I still consider a few things worth it (whether sonically or ergonomically) outside the confines of software/mouse.
Hey burst, I'm curious as to what the few thing are that you are still preferring otb, if you can divulge that info.
Old 4th August 2020
  #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetplane666666 View Post
Hey burst, I'm curious as to what the few thing are that you are still preferring otb, if you can divulge that info.
Sure thing...

I enjoy riding the faders or knobs on a few devices that I use while processing tracks (sometimes pre-mix, sometimes during)... filters, guitar pedals, tape transports, etc.

Also have a few boxes that provide tones I like to include, particularly on vocals, and blending them all into a cohesive vocal sound (per artist, or per project) is something I still like doing physically at this point, in the real world, even moving some air/molecules at times.
Old 4th August 2020
  #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burst View Post
Sure thing...

I enjoy riding the faders or knobs on a few devices that I use while processing tracks,
ok, I just went to your website, holy moly I'd say it's more than just a "few devices", lol. I'm completely itb, and I'm always wondering what would be the first few things that otb producers would purchase if they were starting in 2020.
Old 5th August 2020
  #406
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I think it´s a brilliant and logical move for M.Brauer to go ITB.

And I´m really looking forward to watch his new MWTM workshops
since NOW it all comes down to creativity instead of rare hardware
which very few can afford.

Great times for sharing knowledge !
The very best to you all

We´ll get through these difficult times
and will learn something from it.
Old 5th August 2020
  #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
If you look at what is being sold, 99% is commodity (ie, current day items that possibly get an increased value with his name attached to it on the used market.)

I mean here's a basic Manley VariMu. Nothing special about it. Attach MB's name and let AltoMusic flog it. Maybe it'll make more with the signature.
See also all the Chandler stuff.
And the Empirical Labs stuff.

I see very few actual "vintage" items that would have added value without his name. It's like a bad yard sale with a celeb: Here's a napkin that sat under my Coke. Let me sign it for you.
I didn't see if anyone responded to you yet so this might be redundant but you didn't see the video, did you? Many of these have been customized with unique features that nobody else has. Also a few are serial number 1, one is a focusrite actually made by Rupert Neve. I don't intend to buy any of this, all out of my range but this is not just the Blaupunkt car stereo owned by a guy in Night Ranger (my step-dad bought a Blalupunkt from one of the guys in Night Ranger, he lived down the street, and was very excited by it). Besides, this sort of "this is from "blah blah" studio" or this was used to record "blankety blank's" record" as a studio common practice. So I guess good for you for not being impressed or interested but this will have no trouble selling for high prices now and again and again.
Old 5th August 2020
  #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by occam View Post
Also a few are serial number 1, one is a focusrite actually made by Rupert Neve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
I see very few actual "vintage" items that would have added value without his name.
I did see the video. I think the response you quoted already answers the exceptions you bring up.

And, no, not impressed. I work with people/artists like Michael Brauer. They eventually have to sell stuff (put a signature here, mail a certificate with it mentioning what it was used on, have the assistant package it up.) The buyer is the sucker, not the seller. There's always a mark.

If it was truly important to Brauer or important to his craft, he wouldn't sell it. (and he isn't selling everything) That should tell you what it means to him. But as the item on its own (without the "celeb" part), what is it worth to the next guy in use? And then what are they asking?

I remember in the early 2000s Black Market Music (those in LA will know) had a bunch of Pink Floyd synths and rack gear used for Division Bell for sale. All signed by the band. I'm sure today people online would be chomping at the bit for that stuff. At Black Market, people bought it if it was useful -- the story was just a side bonus. Most of it didn't sell.
Old 5th August 2020
  #409
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ionian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by occam View Post
(my step-dad bought a Blalupunkt from one of the guys in Night Ranger, he lived down the street, and was very excited by it).
Maybe it's just me but I find the thought of buying a car radio off the dude in Night Ranger and then popping in a cassette and blasting Sister Christian much more exciting than buying a piece of gear off a famous mixer for an inflated price.

That being said, not all famous mixers fund their retirement home off their name. David Bendeth gave me a rundown on his Lexicon PCM 42 - that it had been used on Whitney Houston and Hall and Oates, and most recently on the last Paramore album he mixed. It also had the full extended memory (3600 ms, I think). Then sold it to me for $700 even though he said, "I know I can get a lot more but you appreciate them". Lol although he's not wrong - I'm obsessed with PCM 42s. I'm up to 5. I use them for everything - delay, flanging, chorusing, doubling, stereo-izing, ping pong delays, etc.
Old 5th August 2020
  #410
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burst's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetplane666666 View Post
ok, I just went to your website, holy moly I'd say it's more than just a "few devices", lol. I'm completely itb, and I'm always wondering what would be the first few things that otb producers would purchase if they were starting in 2020.
lol, indeed... Try as I might, the downsizing never quite takes hold. Some of those photos though are my main tracking room in Milwaukee, my new mix setup in Seattle is quite a bit more limited in terms of kit.

First few? Things I really don't want to mix without? These were at the top of the list of things I knew I'd be moving with me this summer :
  • Maag EQ4
  • Stretch
  • Overstayer Modular Channel
  • all three OTO fx but especially the verb
  • The Big Trees
Old 5th August 2020
  #411
Quote:
Originally Posted by recall View Post
Hi Mike,

Just wondering what your steps for checking are? I sum to 8 busses which feed my summing mixer and then print back to a track in the same session.

I feed the output busses from folder sub groups (drums, lead vocals, bvs etc)

It seems to work most of the time and I did check by pinging from the audio tracks through the bus stages but would be interested to find out your methods.

Best

Iwan
Listening?

When I figured out how ADC works, I made a mix template and the routing in the template prevents problems, so there's not really any need to check.

There can be comb filtering from plugins that oversample and don't use linear phase filters in the recombination stage, but I don't use any designed that way.

As long as anything on a send has its own aux return for ADC to be applied you won't have any problems.
Old 5th August 2020
  #412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyxis360 View Post

McDonalds sells millions of burgers too, what do we take from that?

And it was Julia Childs' favorite restaurant. What do we take from that?
Old 5th August 2020
  #413
Quote:
Originally Posted by burst View Post
Ok, but seriously, what are these two rules and where's the best place to stay up to date on any ADC Best Practices with ProTools?

Has is changed from version 2019.x to 2020?

This one thing is the source of most of my daily frustration when mixing. Integrating hardware is almost always going to be a PITA, I suspect, but I still consider a few things worth it (whether sonically or ergonomically) outside the confines of software/mouse.
It's been so long since I figured it out, I don't remember the whole explanation of why.

If you send everything directly to an unused pair of analog outs that you treat directly as analog outs and then every send has its own aux return where ADC can be applied, you're set.

There's a detailed explanation from years ago around here somewhere.
Old 5th August 2020
  #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
And it was Julia Childs' favorite restaurant. What do we take from that?
Love Julia Childs

It wasn't her favourite, not at all, she "liked" it though. I think we can safely assume her knowledge and appreciation of food extended beyond McDonalds.
Old 5th August 2020
  #415
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Even beyond her Childs' Happy Meal?
Chris
Old 6th August 2020
  #416
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The one thing which puzzles me is:

MB going from SSL to hybrid = 10 % better sound
MB going from hybrid to ITB = 10 % better sound

So does MB ITB sound 20 % better than on SSL ?
Old 6th August 2020
  #417
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IMHO that last step is more like -10%.
(maybe more around negative 5% compared to OTB/Hybrid)

Sorry, Classic Hardware still generally sounds better. Just listen to more comparative shootouts.
Never have heard ITB win out, unless the Hardware version, never existed in the first place!
Chris
Old 6th August 2020
  #418
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
IMHO that last step is more like -10%.
(maybe more around negative 5% compared to OTB/Hybrid)

Sorry, Classic Hardware still generally sounds better. Just listen to more comparative shootouts.
Never have heard ITB win out, unless the Hardware version, never existed in the first place!
Chris
Chris, I don't think hardware ever loses in a one to one shootout. But ultimately, it comes down to what the final mix sounds like and the question of whether or not you can tell in a batch of your own mixes which was the one you did ITB.
Old 6th August 2020
  #419
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Good points. I just like the relatively recent interview, where they asked Al Schmitt about Analog and Digital.
Such a Gentleman, and I can't believe he's 90 now! Anyway, he viewpoint was Analog is still slightly superior, but you can still make great sounding records Digitally.
I think that's a fair assessment.
Chris
Old 6th August 2020
  #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
The one thing which puzzles me is:

MB going from SSL to hybrid = 10 % better sound
MB going from hybrid to ITB = 10 % better sound

So does MB ITB sound 20 % better than on SSL ?
20% better marketing.

I'll trust me ears, they have served me well for the last 40 years of music making.

Hardware sounds superior to my ears.

I use it where I can afford to and it's practical in the balance of space, time and convenience.
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