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High end monitors for home hifi use
Old 6th December 2019
  #1
Here for the gear
 

High end monitors for home hifi use

Hi
First post so I hope its in the right forum. I'm not a music professional.
At present I use large floor standing speakers called Monitor Audio platinum 300s. These are award winning speakers that now retail at about £8k and they actually outperform speakers that cost more than that (imho)

My space is large, at about 8m by 8m. Its an open plan living room which is an acoustical nightmare, ie tiled floor, high ceilings and lots of glass. I sit about 4m from the speakers which are about 3.3m apart.

However I have a Trinnov ST2 HiFi which does wonders with room correction and makes it all sound very decent. There is no option to change the room.

I'm looking to upgrade my speakers and nothing in the hifi market really inspires me and a lot of the stuff considered an upgrade on my current speakers gets into frankly ridiculous sums of money.

That has led me to look at the pro market.

My musical tastes are dance music old and new ie old school hip hop, drum and bass/jungle from the 80s and 90s, reggae and some modern rap and pop.

A lot of the music I listen to is about the bass so performance in this region is particularly important to me. However not just bloated booming bass but perfectly controlled, deep and nuanced bass.
The Trinnov helps greatly in this regard and I intend to use it with whichever speakers I get next.

So my question is can studio monitors/pro speakers (with subs) perform well in a domestic setting at 4m listening distance?

I'm particularly looking at something like Amphion because you can stack the subs with the monitors which helps with floor space.

Thank you.
Old 6th December 2019
  #2
Quote:
Originally Posted by indus View Post
There is no option to change the room.
If this is truly the case then, to be blunt, stop spending money on speakers or monitors, sell what you have and get some nice headphones. If you can hang up photos or artwork or bookshelves or whatever else then you can hang up treatment that'll make your existing setup much better and also reduce the need for digital room correction which is probably doing all kinds of odd **** to your audio. It definitely isn't doing it any favors. Adding a subwoofer will make things even worse.

I use Amphions with a sub, by the way.
Old 6th December 2019
  #3
Lives for gear
Well I have zero experience with high-end monitors, but I know a thing or two about sound. Honestly, I'd recommend you invest your money into proper acoustic treatment. Pay a visit to the Studio Building and Acoustics subforum and take it all in.

Acoustic treatment will make a much bigger difference in your room than any speaker, imho
Old 6th December 2019
  #4
Lives for gear
Monitors are generally designed to be brutally honest - not kind or musical - I certainly wouldn't want to listen to music for pleasure on most studio monitors.

If £8K HiFi speakers aren't good enough for you, then do as another person suggested - treat the room acoustics - there's a lot more mileage there than chasing ever diminishing returns with ever higher-end loudspeakers.
Old 7th December 2019
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ripripstabstab View Post
If this is truly the case then, to be blunt, stop spending money on speakers or monitors, sell what you have and get some nice headphones. If you can hang up photos or artwork or bookshelves or whatever else then you can hang up treatment that'll make your existing setup much better and also reduce the need for digital room correction which is probably doing all kinds of odd **** to your audio. It definitely isn't doing it any favors. Adding a subwoofer will make things even worse.

I use Amphions with a sub, by the way.

I'm a little surprised to be honest

I completely understand the room/speaker interaction to be of utmost importance but are you honestly saying that unless you can heavily treat a room the answer is to buy headphones??

Can I infer therefore that your own room, source, speakers etc are all absolutely perfect? You have measured them to be so and had them peer reviewed? Or are you happily enjoying music on your headphones?



You then go off on another tangent and suggest I hang up photos and bookshelves. Kindly explain how you think a photo on the wall would deal with frequency responses of +10db at 50hz for example.

Do you know anything about Trinnov room correction or have you taken a lazy approach and decided it does 'odd ****' to the sound based on preconceptions? It's used in many professional studios in case you didn't know.

Anyway, I'm off to hang a bookshelf on my wall lol
Old 7th December 2019
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by indus View Post
I'm a little surprised to be honest

I completely understand the room/speaker interaction to be of utmost importance but are you honestly saying that unless you can heavily treat a room the answer is to buy headphones??

Can I infer therefore that your own room, source, speakers etc are all absolutely perfect? You have measured them to be so and had them peer reviewed? Or are you happily enjoying music on your headphones?



You then go off on another tangent and suggest I hang up photos and bookshelves. Kindly explain how you think a photo on the wall would deal with frequency responses of +10db at 50hz for example.

Do you know anything about Trinnov room correction or have you taken a lazy approach and decided it does 'odd ****' to the sound based on preconceptions? It's used in many professional studios in case you didn't know.

Anyway, I'm off to hang a bookshelf on my wall lol
The **** are you talking about?

No room is perfect, obviously. Your room is apparently completely untreated yet you're running $8k speakers with digital room correction - correction doing much more in your untreated room than a proper studio - about to buy more speakers. I never said hang up art...? I said if you can hang things, anything, then you can hang acoustic treatment. It's not like you have to bolt a room within a room to the foundation. Follow the ball, lol.
Old 7th December 2019
  #7
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripripstabstab View Post
The **** are you talking about?

No room is perfect, obviously. Your room is apparently completely untreated yet you're running $8k speakers with digital room correction - correction doing much more in your untreated room than a proper studio - about to buy more speakers. I never said hang up art...? I said if you can hang things, anything, then you can hang acoustic treatment. It's not like you have to bolt a room within a room to the foundation. Follow the ball, lol.

So kindly tell me what I need to hang on the wall to deal with +10db frequency response.

Looking forward to your ball so that I can follow it
Old 7th December 2019
  #8
Gear Head
 

You can go for a pair of big ATC actives and live happily ever after. ATC SCM100As or even 150As since you have big space.

I have used acoustic panels for walls to dampen the room and also put some in the corners of the room for better bass control. Browse the net, there should be many options with reasonable prices.

Speaker placement is also very important, it's free and fun to experiment and you'd be surprised with the results you can obtain with better placement. Again there are many articles on speaker positioning.
Here's one to get you going.

https://uturnaudio.com/blogs/uturn/speaker-placement

Good luck!
Old 7th December 2019
  #9
Old 7th December 2019
  #10
Acoustic treatment...


Without an optimal room, or atleast a well treated room no speaker will come to its right. I think you would be amazed on how much the resolution and bass extension can be improved with treating the room right.


I always enjoyed Focals for listening. Nice resolution and tight highbass response. I was amazed first time I heard focal sm11 in a mastering studio.
Old 7th December 2019
  #11
It seems like a good application for the Dutch & Dutch 8c. I haven't personally tried them though.

You could also look into putting in some acoustic insulation disguised as artwork or maybe some thick theater curtains if you're worried about changing the aesthetic of the space.
Old 7th December 2019
  #12
Here for the gear
 

A great deal of jungle, hip-hop and reggae was recorded and mastered on big, old Tannoy dual concentrics

Personally I've never heard the above, and electronic music in general, sound as "right" as on those old units

Have you considered current Tannoy Legacy models, like maybe the Arden? £6.3K

If I were looking for new home speakers in that price bracket I would be auditioning those first, especially for those kinds of music

Alternatively, as mentioned above, ATC solves all your problems - but they are massively more expensive - £10K to £17K for the passive versions
Old 8th December 2019
  #13
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avare's Avatar
 

+1 to acoustic treatment. The biggest difference in monitors is the finish.
Old 8th December 2019
  #14
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripripstabstab View Post
If this is truly the case then, to be blunt, stop spending money on speakers or monitors, sell what you have and get some nice headphones. If you can hang up photos or artwork or bookshelves or whatever else then you can hang up treatment that'll make your existing setup much better and also reduce the need for digital room correction which is probably doing all kinds of odd **** to your audio. It definitely isn't doing it any favors. Adding a subwoofer will make things even worse.

I use Amphions with a sub, by the way.
Don't believe that crap that pro monitors are designed to sound "brutally honest" and therefore are unsuitable for home listening. First of all, what have "honest" and "brutal" got to do with each other? Why should an accurate pair of monitors make your music sound terrible? The answer is they don't: they make it sound better than a less accurate pair of monitors does. The reason is it brings out more of the good things in the music than the lesser monitor does: the melodies, rhythms, timbres, and dynamics. Why should it only bring out the bad stuff? Sure, an accurate pair of monitors will transmit the shortcomings of the recording, but not in an exaggerated way. Monitors with hyped response may exaggerate these faults but they're not accurate.

Next, the crap about room treatment. This is one of those myths that is continually reiterated on Gearslutz; that the room is just as important as the monitors themselves. Well, my experience with using several sets of monitors in three very different rooms over the past decade is that the monitors sound substantially the same, with the same set of strengths and weaknesses, in every room I've used them in. Am I talking rubbish? Well, Floyd E. Toole's massive study on the subject concludes that after an initial period of orientation, the ear substantially discounts room-effects and hears the monitor predominantly. Our ears are pretty efficient at filtering out the crud and getting to essentials.

Next: the advice about headphones. Good as headphones are getting, they simply do not portray music with the weight, dimensions, power, and grandeur of a great set of monitors. They're a nice adjunct, that's all.

My recommendation: if you can afford a set of Barefoot MM12's I don't think you'll be at all disappointed. They honestly sound like you're listening to a live concert but with astonishing delicacy and beauty as well.
Old 9th December 2019
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
Don't believe that crap that pro monitors are designed to sound "brutally honest" and therefore are unsuitable for home listening. First of all, what have "honest" and "brutal" got to do with each other? Why should an accurate pair of monitors make your music sound terrible? The answer is they don't: they make it sound better than a less accurate pair of monitors does. The reason is it brings out more of the good things in the music than the lesser monitor does: the melodies, rhythms, timbres, and dynamics. Why should it only bring out the bad stuff? Sure, an accurate pair of monitors will transmit the shortcomings of the recording, but not in an exaggerated way. Monitors with hyped response may exaggerate these faults but they're not accurate.

Next, the crap about room treatment. This is one of those myths that is continually reiterated on Gearslutz; that the room is just as important as the monitors themselves. Well, my experience with using several sets of monitors in three very different rooms over the past decade is that the monitors sound substantially the same, with the same set of strengths and weaknesses, in every room I've used them in. Am I talking rubbish? Well, Floyd E. Toole's massive study on the subject concludes that after an initial period of orientation, the ear substantially discounts room-effects and hears the monitor predominantly. Our ears are pretty efficient at filtering out the crud and getting to essentials.

Next: the advice about headphones. Good as headphones are getting, they simply do not portray music with the weight, dimensions, power, and grandeur of a great set of monitors. They're a nice adjunct, that's all.

My recommendation: if you can afford a set of Barefoot MM12's I don't think you'll be at all disappointed. They honestly sound like you're listening to a live concert but with astonishing delicacy and beauty as well.
What's with you and the OP's reading comprehension? I never said anything about monitors being brutally honest or unsuitable for home listening...?

The dude has spent over £10,000 for a sound that's apparently just "decent" in his "acoustical nightmare" even with the use of digital room correction and wants suggestions on buying some magical studio monitors that are supposed to sound great with "not just bloated booming bass but perfectly controlled, deep and nuanced bass" instead of his addressing the obvious problem.

But yeah, for sure, a $20,000 pair of Barefoots is the way to go. 100%.
Old 9th December 2019
  #16
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripripstabstab View Post
What's with you and the OP's reading comprehension? I never said anything about monitors being brutally honest or unsuitable for home listening...?

The dude has spent over £10,000 for a sound that's apparently just "decent" in his "acoustical nightmare" even with the use of digital room correction and wants suggestions on buying some magical studio monitors that are supposed to sound great with "not just bloated booming bass but perfectly controlled, deep and nuanced bass" instead of his addressing the obvious problem.

But yeah, for sure, a $20,000 pair of Barefoots is the way to go. 100%.
As long as the MM12's are placed well away from reflecting surfaces (and I don't mean 18 inches from the wall) and the room is furnished like the average living room with a fair amount of absorption they are going to sound GREAT. I've used them in two different rooms without a cent of "treatment" and they knock my socks off every time I listen to them (and far more than any of the expensive headphones I own). The problem is not his room but the speakers he's using. Passive audiophile speakers are a waste of money. They sound effete and undernourished so that their owners are always trying to compensate by spending more and more on ancillaries: "err, if I can only get my $10,000 cable placed JUST RIGHT hanging off the ground it'll sound much better!" Believe me, I used audiophile speakers for years before my Road To Damascus conversion after hearing a good set of pro powered monitors. Just buy the damn things, forget about the BS, sit back, and wallow in the music.
Old 9th December 2019
  #17
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SydBeretta View Post
It seems like a good application for the Dutch & Dutch 8c. I haven't personally tried them though.

You could also look into putting in some acoustic insulation disguised as artwork or maybe some thick theater curtains if you're worried about changing the aesthetic of the space.
I have them as studio monitors and wish I had a second pair for my living room. Due to their cardioid nature there is less sound reflection from side walls. They go down to 20Hz without a subwoofer, making room placement easy. They sound astonishingly good. Audition them if you have the chance. The Kii Three are in a similar bracket sound- and technology-wise.
Old 9th December 2019
  #18
If you can stretch to £11,350, these HEDD Extended Tower mains
https://www.hedd.audio/en/tower-mains/
would probably give you your money's worth, partly because the woofers are spread over such a large area that room modes would be excited less.
I believe they can now be auditioned in England.

I have a pair of the HEDD Type 20s and the bass is stellar for a 7" driver in a small box, so I can only imagine what HEDD achieves with 8—9" drivers per side in sealed boxes, each side driven by 2,400 watts.

If you don't need that high a playback level, the Gradient 1.4 has the reputation of making the room disappear more than any other speaker currently on the market and sound good doing it and could be supplemented with a 'swarm' array of 4 subs from Audiokinesis. These are specifically designed to excite room modes least by virtue of the fact the bass comes from four different positions in the room and thus room modes are 1/4 the strength of those from a single sub. The result is that the room is removed to a large extent from the bass. The combination would cost about the same as your current speakers; around £7200 plus shipping for the Swarm subs which would probably bring the total up to around £8,000.

That is not a 'pro' system, though, and would not play as loud as the HEDD Tower mains with their 6,600 watts!
Old 9th December 2019
  #19
Gear Addict
 
puriteaudio's Avatar
 

Hedd 20’s are excellent, the Main Towers well they are good too, and the 1.4s are my favourite passive, 8Cs/Kiis are excellent too, and are more incorporated into non/partially treated rooms.
Keith
Old 9th December 2019
  #20
I would own the Lipinski L707 for my living room in about 1 second, if I had that type of cash laying around. You would want to get the subs with them as well.
Old 9th December 2019
  #21
Lives for gear
 

As said above, put your time and a very small amount of money into positioning and treatment FIRST. This will determine the best you can get out of your circumstances REGARDLESS of what speakers you have. Throwing money into other speakers before you do this will not likely get you better sound and you may find out that even your current speakers are wasted with what you have to work with.

I'll give you the extremely condensed version but reading threads in the "Acoustics" section here will help with specifics. Watching this free Youtube primer will cover the basic principles incorporating practical methods and while geared at new Engineers, the principles apply to all: "Bobby Owsinski - Improve the Sound of Your Room" link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d9WmjTJniI

What you hear is an INTERACTION between the room geometry, its construction, its materials, the materials and placement of everything in the room, the listening position, the speaker's position, the monitoring signal chain, and then finally the speakers themselves. EACH of these effects the others in some way as to what you hear.

Now using what you have now and ignoring the big items that are cost prohibitive to change, the obvious thing to start with is experimentation of both listening position and speaker position. You will have your speaker's room correction DSP off for this as these best options can be determined using ANY full range speaker at your desired listening level. Grab a buddy and some beverages as this will take time to find out your best options. You may already have a set listening position due to your living space arrangement but if not it's a good starting point as where you are in a room can change whether you are hearing large peaks or nulls of various frequencies. You want to be in a position where they are not as drastic. As this is tied into the room's geometry / dimensions it's not something you will be able to change and thus moving your listening position is the only option. Room treatment, speaker correction, and EQ are only small bandaids that can be applied to a room's geometry sound problem which will never totally fix it, thus moving the listening position to get out of a large peak or null is your only practical option to minimize. Once that is done then adding the bandaids will help some more. By the way if you want more specific info during experimentation you can buy a $100 measurement mic to use with free software to see what is happening. You will find info on that in the "Acoustics" section here. Hint: if posible centering from side walls helps. There is a reason when you look at pictures of studios that the listening position is centered and gear is symetrical around it. Bottom line is that you want your listening position to be out of the bad spots.

Speaker positioning: using your buddy and a tape measure you will start by setting up an equal distant triangle (each leg of the triangle measures the same) with one end point of the triangle being 1 foot behing the listening position. From there you will try other positions but keep the distance from each speaker to 1 foot behind listening position the same. It helps to use some tape to mark positions on the floor.

Now that you have best listening and speaker positions you can work on simple inexpensive but very important room treatment. The youtube video above gets into that subject. AFTER positioning and treatment then turn back on your speaker's room correction DSP to see what it does.

As to what is different between speakers marketed as studio monitors vs. audiophile, studio monitors are not meant to make everything sound better. They are a tool to let us hear good from bad without masking flattery. Studio monitors should also have components that will allow 24/7 usage without excessive heat buildup and will not go into compression when driven. Consumer speakers will typically have a wider dispersion pattern, a larger but less defined sweet listening spot.

So basically you don't need to throw money around to get the most out of what you have to work with however you will need to spend time experimenting and incorporating some treatment if possible (has to survive the partner can live with it too test lol). That will give you the best results before you even think about chasing your tail with swapping speakers.
Old 10th December 2019
  #22
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
I would own the Lipinski L707 for my living room in about 1 second, if I had that type of cash laying around. You would want to get the subs with them as well.
I own the Lipinski's as well as the MM12's and the Barefoots are lightyears better. The Lipinski's sound like toys by comparison.
Old 10th December 2019
  #23
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
As to what is different between speakers marketed as studio monitors vs. audiophile, studio monitors are not meant to make everything sound better. They are a tool to let us hear good from bad without masking flattery. Studio monitors should also have components that will allow 24/7 usage without excessive heat buildup and will not go into compression when driven. Consumer speakers will typically have a wider dispersion pattern, a larger but less defined sweet listening spot.
You always hear this about audiophile speakers aiming at pleasant rather than accurate sound while pro monitors go for the opposite: the problem is it just isn't true. If you can find just one audiophile designer who insists that he's aiming at a speaker that is inaccurate on purpose I'll buy you a drink. No, to a man (and perhaps, a woman) they will proclaim how accurate and revealing their speaker is. Of course, in practice, they design it for audiophile notions of "accurate" - delicate and airy with lots of "soundstage" and "depth". They tend to leave dynamics out of the picture, unless they're from the Linn/Naim school of thinking, where extracting "information" - which includes dynamic information - is the goal. And occasionally you get an errant audiophile who is transfixed by horns and realizes what they've been missing from snooze-worthy audiophile designs. But take it from me, audiophiles believe they're pursuing accuracy.
Old 10th December 2019
  #24
Gear Head
 

Genelec

Take a look at the genelec 8361A. And if you can swing it, add the W371s. They have their own room correction. The 8361s are the new coaxial version of the 8260 which I own and I brought them into the same room as b&w 802 d3s and we’re talking a massive price difference. Yes - there were a few characteristics I liked more about the B&w but overall I was on the side of the genelecs.

The w371 low end speakers are meant to be paired with the 8361 or 8351. It provides multiple options for the bass output to couple with the room in the most effective way.

Plus, they can all be white...and if you have a nice open floor plan they’ll look good to boot.

I have just added treatment to my place and here’s what I’ve found - you really need to go whole hog on it for it to truly make a difference - especially with a place as big as yours. When it’s done to the extent necessary - yes it can sound incredible. But if it were in my main living area, it can be difficult to make it look nice enough.

I purchased gik paintable panels so they are white on the walls - less noticeable as you can paint them to blend in. Alas - you still need a lot of it...

Good luck and let us know what you end up with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indus View Post
Hi
First post so I hope its in the right forum. I'm not a music professional.
At present I use large floor standing speakers called Monitor Audio platinum 300s. These are award winning speakers that now retail at about £8k and they actually outperform speakers that cost more than that (imho)

My space is large, at about 8m by 8m. Its an open plan living room which is an acoustical nightmare, ie tiled floor, high ceilings and lots of glass. I sit about 4m from the speakers which are about 3.3m apart.

However I have a Trinnov ST2 HiFi which does wonders with room correction and makes it all sound very decent. There is no option to change the room.

I'm looking to upgrade my speakers and nothing in the hifi market really inspires me and a lot of the stuff considered an upgrade on my current speakers gets into frankly ridiculous sums of money.

That has led me to look at the pro market.

My musical tastes are dance music old and new ie old school hip hop, drum and bass/jungle from the 80s and 90s, reggae and some modern rap and pop.

A lot of the music I listen to is about the bass so performance in this region is particularly important to me. However not just bloated booming bass but perfectly controlled, deep and nuanced bass.
The Trinnov helps greatly in this regard and I intend to use it with whichever speakers I get next.

So my question is can studio monitors/pro speakers (with subs) perform well in a domestic setting at 4m listening distance?

I'm particularly looking at something like Amphion because you can stack the subs with the monitors which helps with floor space.

Thank you.
Old 10th December 2019
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
I own the Lipinski's as well as the MM12's and the Barefoots are lightyears better. The Lipinski's sound like toys by comparison.
That’s cool. Enjoy your 2-bus compressors
Old 10th December 2019
  #26
Lives for gear
 

John, thanks for the share of your experience

It would be interesting to put some audiophile speakers in a well designed studio to eliminate most of the acoustic problem element to get a closer apple to apple comparison. Lowering the noise floor substantialy to take that masking factor off the table would be an important element (isolation). I think having a wider dispersion pattern would be a factor however. I know my studio monitors will quickly tell me a good from bad recording. Dynamics are there as that tells you about envelope shaping / sustain related to use or overuse of compression. 3D is there as well as being able to zero in on offending frequency ranges. Many consumer speakers I've heard mask these items which allow a bad recording to sound acceptable and a good recording to be more euphoric. The worst of the bunch of consumer speaker simply add a smiley EQ curve. One other factor I didn't mention in the last post was being able to work all day on a set of speakers without fatigue. For experienced studio guys we learn the room, we learn the speakers and what they will and won't tell us, we learn how it will translate, and we make compensations. If there is mastering then we hopefully have an experienced second check / fine tuning element added to that process (if the label is not pressuring them to err on the bad end of the loudness wars).

Bottom line for this OP and many others like him/her is that you work on the things you can change FIRST before chasing your tail buying other speakers, regardless of studio or home and that is positioning and some acoustics. The fact that when he switches on DSP there is such a change tells you he has problems. Additionally no one yet has brought up the problems associated with using speaker DSP too.
Old 10th December 2019
  #27
Lives for gear
I am a music lover and use k+h o300 and neumann kh420.

In mastering, hifi or audiophile speakers are numerous.
Old 11th December 2019
  #28
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
That’s cool. Enjoy your 2-bus compressors
I guess that must mean the mm12's are completely out of court, according to some theory or other. I have to admit I don't even bother about all the technological guff; I just listen to the monitors. And there is simply no way the l-707 sounds anywhere near as realistic as the mm12. I have no prejudice either way: I have them both.
Old 11th December 2019
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
I guess that must mean the mm12's are completely out of court, according to some theory or other. I have to admit I don't even bother about all the technological guff; I just listen to the monitors. And there is simply no way the l-707 sounds anywhere near as realistic as the mm12. I have no prejudice either way: I have them both.
It means they sound compressed. The fact that you think the L707 sounds like “toys”, gives me a great indicator of your aesthetics. Also, you didn’t say what kind of amplifier you are using. Which leads this down, a not-so-serious conversation. As indicated by your remarks.

Enjoy,
But please don’t quote me again,
Old 12th December 2019
  #30
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
It means they sound compressed. The fact that you think the L707 sounds like “toys”, gives me a great indicator of your aesthetics. Also, you didn’t say what kind of amplifier you are using. Which leads this down, a not-so-serious conversation. As indicated by your remarks.

Enjoy,
But please don’t quote me again,
I assume this means you don't want me to respond, thereby allowing your remarks to go unchallenged. Sorry, but this is a Forum, I haven't insulted you, and I wish to respond.

I'm using a Bel Canto EVO 200.2 power amp at the moment for the Lipinski. I used to have a Krell KSA 100S as well as a Golden Tube SE40 but got rid of most of my amplification gear when I discovered the virtues of powered monitors. And I've heard the Lipinski's on other amps as well but not at length. Basically, they have the same signature sound on everything I've tried: lots of overt "detail", a very forward, present, "fast" sound, a lean balance lacking in warmth, and bass that dramatically lacks both extension and impact compared to something like the MM12. I've compared their sound to a giant pair of headphones and I can see how some listeners would be entranced by the "reach out and touch"immediacy of the sound. I know if I'd heard them when I first became interested in audio I would've been one of the proselytes on behalf of them.

But I've moved on after hearing lots and lots of gear from both the audiophile and pro worlds. I now find the L-707 sound to be "hyped", over-present, lacking in timbral variation, and preternatural-sounding, and obviously so in comparison to something like a MM12, which is my touchstone for realistic sound. You say, the MM12 sounds compressed. I assume you must have heard them or are you just saying this on the basis of your theory - that two-buss compressors (I assume the MM12's have these or did you just make it up?) "must" result in a compressed sound? I know the designer was aiming for minimal compression in the design and this is one of Barefoot's main selling-points. I mean, why would any pro shell out over $20,000 for an obviously compressed design? But you say it's compressed and no doubt in relation to live sound there will be a degree of this. But in comparison to other monitors? You've cast aspersions on my hearing discrimination but I think I can detect obvious compression and I can state unequivocally that the MM12 is far less compressed, particularly in the bass region, than the L-707. It's so obvious to anyone who compares the two side by side that I actually feel sorry for the Lipinski. The Lipinski sounds fast in the presence region; tablas sound really fast and solid but it goes just so far and no further. It's fine with small instrumental groups but huge orchestral climaxes simply elude it. Now go to the MM12 and it just builds and builds from ff to fff with shuddering impact and not the slightest sense of holding back. I used to have a set of Klipsch La Scala's but they didn't come close to doing what I hear from the MM12 as far as dynamic impact goes.

Yet you say it's compressed. Just play Goldfrapp's "Time Out From The World" at high volume through the MM12, listen to the massed strings come in near the end, put your hand over your heart and swear it sounds compressed, and I'll have to give up on convincing you. Or David Bowie's "Aladdin Sane. I thought I knew this album intimately and felt it was pretty good but when I first played it through the MM12 I could hardly believe what I was hearing: the power and weight, as well as the delicacy and subtlety, was overwhelming. So, if that's compression, I lahk it!
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