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Summing with flavours
Old 4 weeks ago
  #31
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ejsongs View Post
There is a width and depth that I can get with the a designs mix factory that I can’t get itb. I for sure have tried and I have just about every plugin you can imagine. Now I don’t use it on every mix out of laziness and for some clients adding analog trannies is good enough. Adding the solid 4000 plus the mix factory gives an even wider depth of field and more “Separation”. I don’t know why. I just know that summing gets me closer to my reference commercially released mixes than otherwise. It can’t get there by itb alone. Maybe it’s just me...

Do you feel your current combo rivals what you'd get on the older SSLs before the current batch of clean boards?

I get tempted to try other summing boxes, but most only have transformers on the 2bus, and I can do that with my folcrom.

The mix factory is tempting because it has volume knobs and multiple inserts.

And don't laugh. Lol
I'm still on the fence with getting out of TDM. I keep thinking I can keep getting more outboard instead of giving Avid dough.

I'm tempted to route to Harrison mix bus or some other DAW from my TDM rig.

How is the Kahayan piece? I've never used one.

Last edited by IM WHO YOU THINK; 4 weeks ago at 06:26 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejsongs View Post
There is a width and depth that I can get with the a designs mix factory that I can’t get itb. I for sure have tried and I have just about every plugin you can imagine. Now I don’t use it on every mix out of laziness and for some clients adding analog trannies is good enough. Adding the solid 4000 plus the mix factory gives an even wider depth of field and more “Separation”. I don’t know why. I just know that summing gets me closer to my reference commercially released mixes than otherwise. It can’t get there by itb alone. Maybe it’s just me...
Yes I agree, but I get the same effect with an analogue chain on the mix bus.

Just inserting the HEDD 192 on my mix bus and turning the pentode knob and boom the mix widens every bit as much as any summing unit I've demoed or heard. And that's hardware DSP! Then add my hardware mix bus compressor a stereo EQ and .... the mix is huge sounding 3D, smooth and great depth.

Then there's the M&S stuff on the SSL Fusion or the DRms plugin. How wide does a mix need to be!

Massive is massive no matter how you go about it.

I have no trouble getting mixes to sound huge and commercial without a summing unit. Plus I'm not making bad of summing units, in fact the exact opposite I can hear they have a vibe, but I think the vibe resides in the stereo part of their design - I believe this is the thinking behind the stereo LTLO Silver Bullet.

However, I am considering breaking out into multi channel analogue processing in a proper hybrid system and to avoid latency hassles and to make gain staging easy I can imagine something like a Neve 8816 as an analogue mixer would be a superb solution, both sonically and practically speaking.

Not a cheap path though, converters worthy of the task are so expensive for a 16 channels.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
Yes I agree, but I get the same effect with an analogue chain on the mix bus.

Just inserting the HEDD 192 on my mix bus and turning the pentode knob and boom the mix widens every bit as much as any summing unit I've demoed or heard. And that's hardware DSP!

Then there's the M&S stuff on the SSL Fusion or the DRms plugin. How wide does a mix need to be.
Massive is massive no matter how you go about it.

I have no trouble getting mixes to sound huge and commercial without a summing unit. Plus I'm not making bad of summing units, in fact the exact opposite I can hear they have a vibe, but I think the vibe resides in the stereo part of their design - I believe this is the thinking behind the stereo LTLO Silver Bullet.

However, I am considering breaking out into multi channel analogue processing in a proper hybrid system and to avoid latency hassles and to make gain staging easy I can imagine something like a Neve 8816 as an analogue mixer would be a superb solution, both sonically and practically speaking.

Not a cheap path though, converters worthy of the task are so expensive in counts of 16.
Not completely disagreeing with you. The Hedd is the next piece on my list...that and a Manley vari mu. Tony Shepperd along with Paul Wolf designed the mix factory and wider and warmer were the key factors that went into it's design. Tony also uses the Hedd and mix factory in his chain and swears by them. I trust him completely and my mixes have improved greatly since i started kinda of being mentored by him. I am in the studio now comparing different saturation tones and fx. I can honestly say that the combination of the mix factory, solid 4000, duy tape and dramastic obsidian is the closest that I have come the to sound in my head and I can't achieve that itb or with analog hardware alone. perhaps the m/s thing plays a huge role in your process but thatis something I rarely play with. I'm excited to hear my client reactions once i deliver products with this work flow.

ej
Old 4 weeks ago
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
Do you feel your current combo rivals what you'd get on the older SSLs before the current batch of clean boards?

I get tempted to try other summing boxes, but most only have transformers on the 2bus, and I can do that with my folcrom.

The mix factory is tempting because it has volume knobs and multiple inserts.

And don't laugh. Lol
I'm still on the fence with getting out of TDM. I keep thinking I can keep getting more outboard instead of giving Avid dough.

I'm tempted to route to Harrison mix bus or some other DAW from my TDM rig.

How is the Kahayan piece? I've never used one.
I just got the Kahayan solid 4000 a few days ago so I am still vibing with it. So far i really like it. it is very subtle but does a widening and in your face thing that I cant get with a plugin. I heard it in a shootout with the silver bullet and preferred it. not that the silver bullet isn't a great piece but the soild 4000 had some sort of mojo that I knew I was looking for...so i pulled the trigger.

Not laughing at the tdm thing at all. I struggled with the same choice as I had an hd6 with almost every tdm plugin ever made...but I kept running out of voices and the tdm rig would refuse to open at the end of a mix if it was maxed out...always right before I was about to print.

Not so with hdx. I find the low end is better, I dont freak out as much when importing sessions for other daw, voice count is higher and I was being forced out by lack of os support and waves.

I find that i have 90% of the plugins that I had and access to new ones...glad I made the jump but tdm still works...especially when recording thru autotune and is something I will never get rid of. I've had to recall mixes and it was easier than trying to pull it up in pt 12 hdx.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #35
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This KAHAYAN Solid 4000 Stereo MixBuss looks interesting, things come out so quickly they seem to pass me by if I have a few weeks away from GS!

It is exactly the kind of stereo mix bus processing vibe box that makes sense to me.

Last edited by thehightenor; 4 weeks ago at 08:58 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #36
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b0se's Avatar
You have to try the Silver Bullet. Opens up mixes and adds weight. That's not even taking into account the great EQ and/or running stems through it. Or the preamps.

Comparison of it (2 bus only) vs burl summing here:

Louder than Liftoff Silver Bullet first impressions
Old 4 weeks ago
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
You have to try the Silver Bullet. Opens up mixes and adds weight. That's not even taking into account the great EQ and/or running stems through it. Or the preamps.

Comparison of it (2 bus only) vs burl summing here:

Louder than Liftoff Silver Bullet first impressions
I have seen the SB - it looks very good - it had a very glowing review in SOS.
Plus DrBill and Brad are clearly two passionate guys with a great product.

That said, I already own some Neve pre's from BAE (I'm not a big fan of the API sound personally) and also I'm getting a bit weary of getting hammered by UK import tax when I import something boutique kit from the US!

So I'm leaning more the SSL Fusion direction at the moment.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #38
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ejsongs View Post
I just got the Kahayan solid 4000 a few days ago so I am still vibing with it. So far i really like it. it is very subtle but does a widening and in your face thing that I cant get with a plugin. I heard it in a shootout with the silver bullet and preferred it. not that the silver bullet isn't a great piece but the soild 4000 had some sort of mojo that I knew I was looking for...so i pulled the trigger.

Not laughing at the tdm thing at all. I struggled with the same choice as I had an hd6 with almost every tdm plugin ever made...but I kept running out of voices and the tdm rig would refuse to open at the end of a mix if it was maxed out...always right before I was about to print.

Not so with hdx. I find the low end is better, I dont freak out as much when importing sessions for other daw, voice count is higher and I was being forced out by lack of os support and waves.

I find that i have 90% of the plugins that I had and access to new ones...glad I made the jump but tdm still works...especially when recording thru autotune and is something I will never get rid of. I've had to recall mixes and it was easier than trying to pull it up in pt 12 hdx.
Eventually, I'll just build a PTnative for mixing and be done with it. Every time I look at the cost of upgrading, I think of other things to do with the $$$
I've been putting off making the jump because of things like microphones or instruments getting my $$$. ( things I'll need no matter what I'm mixing on) Also, since I started summing OTB, it's much easier to just add outboard to my channels and forget about flavor of the month plugins), it's how I get around voice limits. I use a lot of waves SSL on channels. I know guys around here love other plugs, but it works for me and with using more outboard, I'm just using fewer plugs on busses.

You can't go wrong with following Tony's direction. I'll eventually try out the Mix factory just to support his efforts. Of course, I'd only keep it if it works for me lol. Tony's a cool dude and all, but $3Gs is $3Gs. Something tells me I'll like it. I generally like Adesigns gear. Tony put me on to the Adesigns Hammer years ago. There's one at a place I work out of in New Orleans and every time I use it, I wish I had one (or two) at my own spot.

I'd like to shoot out the mix factory, the sigma, and maybe the Coleman summing mixer with my folcrom/amek CIB set up.

I may have to try the kahayan too it seems like something I'd take to.

Thanks for the info bro.

Last edited by IM WHO YOU THINK; 4 weeks ago at 12:42 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #39
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b0se's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
I have seen the SB - it looks very good - it had a very glowing review in SOS.
Plus DrBill and Brad are clearly two passionate guys with a great product.

That said, I already own some Neve pre's from BAE (I'm not a big fan of the API sound personally) and also I'm getting a bit weary of getting hammered by UK import tax when I import something boutique kit from the US!

So I'm leaning more the SSL Fusion direction at the moment.
U.S. import tax is annoying isn't it. So much great gear built over there. I believe it cost me an additional £250 or so to get it here. Still well worth it.

I missed a SB on sale in the UK for 1.8K recently. Not happy about that, want another one!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #40
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The 2 “best” sounding Summing mixers I’ve owned are the Inward Connections Mix-690 and the Heritage MCM-32.

The Mix 690 sounds great and is built like a tank, great quality build. The sound is clean not colored yet sounds full, wide, and has good dimension. 16 channels, Pan only, Master fader, MixBus insert.


The MCM-32 sounds very good, poor build quality compared to the 690, the sound is colored adds a tad bit of softness to the transients. The features are great!32 channels, bussing, insert send & returns Pans, faders, Mixbuss insert.

I also owned the api DSM Summing mixer system. It had a narrow sound to it compared to both mixers mentioned above, I think this has a lot to do with the 2510 Opamps they used in Place of the 2520 Opamp per channel. The master section did have 2520s but the individual channels had 2510’s.

I’m back to a console now and that’s where I’m staying. It has it all and sounds big, wide, and dimensional. Lots of color. 28x16x4.

What is cool about Summing mixers is they’re small and you can have a few different flavors and not take up a lot of room.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by 127Riot View Post
What is cool about Summing mixers is they’re small and you can have a few different flavors and not take up a lot of room.
That's some great info on those units in your post.

I went from the Burl B32 to a CAPI 16x4 SumBus a few months ago and the SumBus is just an amazing box. To me it's 100% the console-type sound.

Had Audibility Recordings (via Reverb) do the build and he did a fantastic job on it as well.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batlanyard View Post
That's some great info on those units in your post.

I went from the Burl B32 to a CAPI 16x4 SumBus a few months ago and the SumBus is just an amazing box. To me it's 100% the console-type sound.

Had Audibility Recordings (via Reverb) do the build and he did a fantastic job on it as well.

I’m not familiar with the features of that Summing unit but I’m sure it sounds great as does all the Capi gear.

My main issue with Mix 690 Summing Mixer was there is no insert send and return per channel, so my PT volume rides affected my compression. Otherwise that unit sounded really great and the build quality was top notch.

So basically if I was mixing 100% ITB and then just sum through the 690 it wouldn’t be an issue. I use a good amount of rack gear so it just didn’t work out for me.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #43
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midmost's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by batlanyard View Post
That's some great info on those units in your post.

I went from the Burl B32 to a CAPI 16x4 SumBus a few months ago and the SumBus is just an amazing box. To me it's 100% the console-type sound.

Had Audibility Recordings (via Reverb) do the build and he did a fantastic job on it as well.
so the CAPI wins against the BURL for you?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejsongs View Post
Not completely disagreeing with you. The Hedd is the next piece on my list...that and a Manley vari mu. Tony Shepperd along with Paul Wolf designed the mix factory and wider and warmer were the key factors that went into it's design. Tony also uses the Hedd and mix factory in his chain and swears by them. I trust him completely and my mixes have improved greatly since i started kinda of being mentored by him. I am in the studio now comparing different saturation tones and fx. I can honestly say that the combination of the mix factory, solid 4000, duy tape and dramastic obsidian is the closest that I have come the to sound in my head and I can't achieve that itb or with analog hardware alone. perhaps the m/s thing plays a huge role in your process but thatis something I rarely play with. I'm excited to hear my client reactions once i deliver products with this work flow.

ej
Your mileage may of course vary but I found that the Vari Mu shrank the width of my summed mixes. It really does some magical, gooey squeezing but unfortunately also seemed to dampen the periphery enough for me to sell it.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ripripstabstab View Post
Your mileage may of course vary but I found that the Vari Mu shrank the width of my summed mixes. It really does some magical, gooey squeezing but unfortunately also seemed to dampen the periphery enough for me to sell it.
Anything that adds girth in the lows/low mids will have the effect of "monoing" a mix.

Sometimes that sounds cool, I am sometimes bemused by peoples obsession with having mixes sound as wide as possible, to the point of even using M&S proceeding to boosts the side signal.

Not to mention as a recent survey of family and friends I could find a single person who listens to music on a stereo anymore!

I'm spending hours panning instruments to perfection and everyone I know is listening to music on mono streaming devices like Alexa and Sonoris.

Have we reached a point we're doing all this for no other reason than reaching the peak of Maslow's triangle!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #46
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post

I'm spending hours panning instruments to perfection and everyone I know is listening to music on mono streaming devices like Alexa and Sonoris.

Have we reached a point we're doing all this for no other reason than reaching the peak of Maslow's triangle!
Don't forget a lot of listeners who might use those mono boxes, also use headphones, on which you can generally (quality dependant of course) always appreciate the stereo width.

Don't forget the car too, and I'm sure there are still lots of listeners that appreciate good quality audio from good quality audio equipment.

But regardless of that, don't forget that we also do this for the art and self satisfaction, and if you're not satisfying yourself, you won't believe that you are satisfying listeners.

The other point I think a lot of people forget about when they mention listeners using poor quality equipment is, if your music sounds crap to begin with, it don't stand a chance on low quality playback systems. So there's still a reason to aim high.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blayz2002 View Post
Don't forget a lot of listeners who might use those mono boxes, also use headphones, on which you can generally (quality dependant of course) always appreciate the stereo width.

Don't forget the car too, and I'm sure there are still lots of listeners that appreciate good quality audio from good quality audio equipment.

But regardless of that, don't forget that we also do this for the art and self satisfaction, and if you're not satisfying yourself, you won't believe that you are satisfying listeners.

The other point I think a lot of people forget about when they mention listeners using poor quality equipment is, if your music sounds crap to begin with, it don't stand a chance on low quality playback systems. So there's still a reason to aim high.
I agree with you on one point. I do this to satisfy my own high standards first and foremost.

In my case it really is art for arts sake.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
Anything that adds girth in the lows/low mids will have the effect of "monoing" a mix.

Sometimes that sounds cool, I am sometimes bemused by peoples obsession with having mixes sound as wide as possible, to the point of even using M&S proceeding to boosts the side signal.

Not to mention as a recent survey of family and friends I could find a single person who listens to music on a stereo anymore!

I'm spending hours panning instruments to perfection and everyone I know is listening to music on mono streaming devices like Alexa and Sonoris.

Have we reached a point we're doing all this for no other reason than reaching the peak of Maslow's triangle!
Eh, my mix bus is six+ stages of transformers from Aurora, Neve, API and CAPI (eight+ if you count the B32 and B2 ADC) before the Vari Mu. It's very, very colored but the Vari Mu IN all but deleted the periphery. Vari Mu OUT meant no more gooey squeeze but the air leaking out of the edges of the frame are alive and well. I prefer the latter.

Those flecks of shapes and light at the edges are important to me, and I have no interest whatsoever in mixing in service of the race to the bottom of consumer listening devices. Translation is important but I'm not going to skip out on the details just because some or even most people listen with basic stuff. That's tantamount to shooting a film in lossy 1080p because it'll end up being streamed.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ripripstabstab View Post
Eh, my mix bus is six+ stages of transformers from Aurora, Neve, API and CAPI (eight+ if you count the B32 and B2 ADC) before the Vari Mu. It's very, very colored but the Vari Mu IN all but deleted the periphery. Vari Mu OUT meant no more gooey squeeze but the air leaking out of the edges of the frame are alive and well. I prefer the latter.

Those flecks of shapes and light at the edges are important to me, and I have no interest whatsoever in mixing in service of the race to the bottom of consumer listening devices. Translation is important but I'm not going to skip out on the details just because some or even most people listen with basic stuff. That's tantamount to shooting a film in lossy 1080p because it'll end up being streamed.
Oh I agree, my own work is my vision of perfection, I wouldnt except anything less from myself.

I just know from experience it's lost on all but the few!

But that doesn't negate my desire to pursue perfection, I just see the irony in it all when my wife listens to all her favourite music on her mono Alexa
Old 3 weeks ago
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by ripripstabstab View Post
Eh, my mix bus is six+ stages of transformers from Aurora, Neve, API and CAPI (eight+ if you count the B32 and B2 ADC) before the Vari Mu.
Wow!

Are you saying each mix you do is routed in series through all those boxes or am I reading this wrong?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by midmost View Post
so the CAPI wins against the BURL for you?
Without a doubt. I had the B32 for three years and loved what it did as well. The CAPI's just a whole different thing, especially when you bring in the A/B buss options.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batlanyard View Post
Without a doubt. I had the B32 for three years and loved what it did as well. The CAPI's just a whole different thing, especially when you bring in the A/B buss options.
Interesting! I wager trannies on every single channel + outputs (CAPI) vs. trannies on only the output (Burl) makes the difference here.

I was torn between the CAPI summing mixer and the Thermionic Fat Bustard last year and went with the Fat Bustard since I could get hold of it for quite a steal..
But I am more than happy with it. The extra features like EQ and Attitude made my decision in the end. But I guess I'd be more than happy with the CAPI as well
Old 3 weeks ago
  #53
Quote:
Originally Posted by blayz2002 View Post
Wow!

Are you saying each mix you do is routed in series through all those boxes or am I reading this wrong?
Correct, each mix goes through all of them hardwired in series. The Vari-Mu has been replaced by an A-Designs Hammer 2 EQ. It's surprisingly deep and articulate for how beefy it can sound when pushed.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #54
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great to read. ;-) keep up the good work!


Have the Sigma here since a few days. Want to make sure that I do not miss anything... ;-)

It is a really powerful box. But in my opinion really only worth the money if one has not a bunch of outboard and can make use of the automation. Just for summing duties it is not worth the money.

Sound wise it reminds me of the dangerous 2 bus. A little width, a little firmer bass. But it is advertised as super analogue and you really get what you pay for. Definitely not the 4k sound.
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