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To Console or Not to Console...
Old 13th May 2019
  #121
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty James View Post
Simply putting something on a mix bus will not make it sound like multi track audio run through an entire console. This might be true if you were only running a few of tracks through the console.
I don't want to get in a pissing contest, but have you actually tried it - or are you just guessing? Have you tried the Silver Bullet on a console's mix bus (especially a more transparent one) that is? I actually DID - along with the 2 bus of my DAW - side by side. For a couple of years while we were developing the box. I developed it specifically when I was rocking a LFAC and used it accordingly with the console as well as on the 2 bus of my DAW. The console can sound BETTER than a console without it, and the DAW can sound better than a console in some circumstances -- depending on what you are after of course. I was after a little more punch, colour, versatility and size.

I had one on the insert of my D&R OrionX. Loved what it did. But I realized, I didn't really need the CONSOLE to achieve the same sound. The sound was in the box and i could get it just as easily on the 2 buss of my DAW. I loved that console and it was convenient for tracking, but I'm not doing much of that these days, so....adios console when I built my new room.

Don't get me wrong, I LOOOOOOVE consoles. There is just not as much room for them (figuratively and literally) in today's production environment.
Old 13th May 2019
  #122
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Seamus TM's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pan60 View Post
a big thanks to Dan Kennedy, Dan Deurloo, Scott Liebers, and James Kennedy our soundcraft is in the back room.


I just got a modified S65, also.
Old 14th May 2019
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I don't want to get in a pissing contest, but have you actually tried it - or are you just guessing? Have you tried the Silver Bullet on a console's mix bus (especially a more transparent one) that is? I actually DID - along with the 2 bus of my DAW - side by side. For a couple of years while we were developing the box. I developed it specifically when I was rocking a LFAC and used it accordingly with the console as well as on the 2 bus of my DAW. The console can sound BETTER than a console without it, and the DAW can sound better than a console in some circumstances -- depending on what you are after of course. I was after a little more punch, colour, versatility and size.

I had one on the insert of my D&R OrionX. Loved what it did. But I realized, I didn't really need the CONSOLE to achieve the same sound. The sound was in the box and i could get it just as easily on the 2 buss of my DAW. I loved that console and it was convenient for tracking, but I'm not doing much of that these days, so....adios console when I built my new room.

Don't get me wrong, I LOOOOOOVE consoles. There is just not as much room for them (figuratively and literally) in today's production environment.
I’m not familiar with Silver bullet at all besides seeing posts about it on GS here and there. So is this not a compressor but more of a unit you strap across your mix for color/transformer sweetening? Or am I way off?

If it is as I mentioned above what does it offer more then running your mix through some good pre’s at the right impedance? Personally my boards MixBus doesn’t need anymore color but would be useful for ITB mixes or strapped across certain Summing boxes, etc...
Old 14th May 2019
  #124
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Ahh ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by 127Riot View Post
I’m not familiar with Silver bullet at all besides seeing posts about it on GS here and there. So is this not a compressor but more of a unit you strap across your mix for color/transformer sweetening? Or am I way off?

If it is as I mentioned above what does it offer more then running your mix through some good pre’s at the right impedance? Personally my boards MixBus doesn’t need anymore color but would be useful for ITB mixes or strapped across certain Summing boxes, etc...

2 minutes of research answered all my questions.
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To Console or Not to Console...-54648dbc-9843-4244-a59e-a1f6813c8595.png  
Old 14th May 2019
  #125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
A great console gives you the 3d sound. ITB gives you a flat surface. Electric/dance music, ITB is fine. Acoustic stuff recorded in nice spaces, you want the console.
Jim, I mean no disrespect, but that post is so 2005.
Old 14th May 2019
  #126
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamboom View Post
Jim, I mean no disrespect, but that post is so 2005.
And that quote is so April. Why is everyone bagging on this guy?
Old 14th May 2019
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 127Riot View Post
2 minutes of research answered all my questions.
Cool. It's essentially a 2 channel console topology. Gives you the juice of a classic API or 80 series Neve without all the wire, heat, size and $$$$$.
Old 14th May 2019
  #128
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Weepit's Avatar
 

Ridiculous that this is turning into another silver bullet thread. Only on gearslutz.

A neve and an api in one cheap box! Even better really! Gimme a break.

Who makes money off these again? This place needs to identify the salesmen far better.
Old 14th May 2019
  #129
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weepit View Post
This place needs to identify the salesmen far better.
Thanks man. I mean, it's got my freakin name on it. Do we really need to identify anyone I think I probably mentioned earlier that I'm biased. I usually do. If not, I'll certainly acquiesce to that now.

But check out the thread from the top. It's not a salesman pitch. It;s a story about how to make your CONSOLE more versatile and effective.

BTW, I do love consoles. Grew up on 'em, and I've owned at least 7 or 8 large consoles in my studio tenure. Just not in 2019. You never know though, someday maybe I'll have another if I ever build another tracking room......
Old 14th May 2019
  #130
So I am really trying to think this through - the perk of a console is committing to one sound, having knobs and sliders to fiddle with and the ability to sum 24 channels (in the case of the API). Currently I don't mix my tracks - partly due to lack of experience but mostly for a fresh set of ears. I tend to take way to long committing to compositions, effects, lyrics etc. so it is nice to have an outside opinion. That being said, if I continue this practice of outside mixing, I really don't need a console.
Old 14th May 2019
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHolyMountain View Post
So I am really trying to think this through - the perk of a console is committing to one sound, having knobs and sliders to fiddle with and the ability to sum 24 channels (in the case of the API). Currently I don't mix my tracks - partly due to lack of experience but mostly for a fresh set of ears. I tend to take way to long committing to compositions, effects, lyrics etc. so it is nice to have an outside opinion. That being said, if I continue this practice of outside mixing, I really don't need a console.
IMHO it really makes NO sense to have a large very $$$$ console to sit there 95% of the time just for a mix every once in a while...
The 2nd set of ears makes a LOT of sense plus can have great benefits vs not..IMHO...
But; "One sound" not really the whole story..Depends on the console..
Old 14th May 2019
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio View Post
IMHO it really makes NO sense to have a large very $$$$ console to sit there 95% of the time just for a mix every once in a while...
The 2nd set of ears makes a LOT of sense plus can have great benefits vs not..IMHO...
But; "One sound" not really the whole story..Depends on the console..
Well it makes sense if you make music. Pretty much the hub for all things that need a connection. Mics , comps and reverb all need to connect somewhere. Plus you have zero latency and hear what u got. Although that's less of an issue today. But what I would say is who do you know that actually doesn't suck and could benefit from a better sound. That list is short. It's not like there's a plethora of excellent musicians.Also I've not heard a single band on mtv live lately. It's all drum machines and sequencers. That music could all be done itb with a basic cheap interface.
Old 14th May 2019
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxplayerz View Post
Well it makes sense if you make music. Pretty much the hub for all things that need a connection. Mics , comps and reverb all need to connect somewhere. Plus you have zero latency and hear what u got. Although that's less of an issue today. But what I would say is who do you know that actually doesn't suck and could benefit from a better sound. That list is short. It's not like there's a plethora of excellent musicians.Also I've not heard a single band on mtv live lately. It's all drum machines and sequencers. That music could all be done itb with a basic cheap interface.
You missed my point..
To the level IM thinking of is very $$$$ to have a complete studio plus ALL the other stuff..Compared to having a small basic set up at your home, then go to a large nice studio with all the gear is a bargain IMHO...
Old 14th May 2019
  #134
Deleted be25781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio View Post
You missed my point..
To the level IM thinking of is very $$$$ to have a complete studio plus ALL the other stuff..Compared to having a small basic set up at your home, then go to a large nice studio with all the gear is a bargain IMHO...
Already well into 40k with the studio here to make stuff compete with the albums I grew up with..

Studio time money is like having to go out and buy some new jeans and a burrito.
Old 14th May 2019
  #135
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio View Post
You missed my point..
To the level IM thinking of is very $$$$ to have a complete studio plus ALL the other stuff..Compared to having a small basic set up at your home, then go to a large nice studio with all the gear is a bargain IMHO...
I understand what you mean. BUT I'm already invested in a console and outboard gear.
Pretty much what led me to that purchase was going to a big studio and getting back tapes where left channel dropped in and out. So it's like oh he has issues I can do better at home on my 4 track.
Then 8 tracks then 16 then 24
Old 15th May 2019
  #136
Yeah I mean - I’m at about 40k myself
Old 15th May 2019
  #137
Deleted be25781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHolyMountain View Post
Yeah I mean - I’m at about 40k myself
If you love music, and think todays sound sounds like complete ass, then get all the old gear.

It makes my blood boil when I hear "it's cheaper and it gets the work done faster, way better for my workflow"

Rome wasn't built in a day.

Get sweaty.

Sound first, then workflow to me.

What we need these days is a sh*tload of this aesthetic:



"oh yeah well the Studer A800 plugin sounds just like the original.." You're not going to tell me that a cheap modelling plugin is going to sound the same as a ton of steel bolts, and wiring of Swiss precision.

Yes I'm in the analog camp. Save up, you'll get there eventually. Bin saving since I was 16, and I still want the same thing. Only top tier is good enough.

I sound like Chris Lord Alge..

Last edited by Deleted be25781; 15th May 2019 at 07:13 AM..
Old 15th May 2019
  #138
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i'm having no problems using all the same mic preamps, filters, eqs of my analog desk and those plus dynamic tools of my digital desk - if i want a different sound, i'm moving or swapping mics!

i like hitting my tracks with a mostly finished sound; mixing then is mainly about levels, panorama and efx. i don't need or want to scroll through an endless list of plugins, regardless of how good or bad an emulation may sound.

resale value of a (digital) desk? i'm not into dealing/trading, i'm into using one on a daily basis as a professional tool and i'm only interested whether it does its job - it does! pretty well actually, at least for my needs...

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 15th May 2019 at 04:32 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 15th May 2019
  #139
Deleted be25781
Guest
Yes some things get broken. A channel might crap out mid session. Or there is a sticky button on my tape deck.

There is this guy in my neighbourhood, You know the type of guy that rolls out from underneath big heavy things with a flashlight between his teeth.

He runs an old school studio but he is also a tech, he has this rooftop shed/shop on top of his studio overlooking a field. A mancave filled with SSL parts sitting on a shelf, an MCI tape machine with it's belly open, oscilloscopes, and a busted up radio always set on one channel. He runs around grumpy in his overalls all the time figuring stuff out, and he has a long grey ponytail. The place smells like grease, burning wires, and armpits.

Anyway, I take the channel to him and we figure out the problem, I have a chat with him, he tells me about his latest projects, like he makes these neat homemade Neve clones. He also hates Bricasti reverbs because of how cheap these are made. His name is Gerhard, and he is my hero.

Also there is always a healthy dose of anxiety that you might get electrocuted and, "I would turn the power off or it might fry the power amp". or "We don't have the right Studer card", so we start the treasure hunt on Ebay. He helps me out for a sandwich, this is awesome.

It's a lot more fun than troubleshooting on a Mac.
Old 15th May 2019
  #140
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i'm having no problems using all the same mic preamps, filters, eqs of my analog desk and dynamic tools on my digital desk - if i want a different sound, i'm moving or swapping mics!

i like hitting my tracks with a mostly finished sound; mixing then is mainly about levels, panorama and efx. i don't need or want to scroll through an endless list of plugins, regardless of how good or bad an emulation may sound.

resale value of a (digital) desk? i'm not into dealing/trading, i'm into using one on a daily basis as a professional tool and i'm only interested whether it does its job - it does! pretty well actually, at least for my needs...

I actually have gotten pretty good at getting the sound I want from the recording, maybe tinkering with eq. but really I wanted to learn to do it correct. Took me 3 months - I swear - to figure out how to mic my amps to get big sounds Lord knows the drums are next - I think the first track I did had something like 75 drum takes
Old 15th May 2019
  #141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
And that quote is so April. Why is everyone bagging on this guy?
I'm easy to hit, not fashionable, against the current grain and still sticking to what works here.

Plus I use my real name. That takes balls around here.
Old 15th May 2019
  #142
Deleted be25781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
I'm easy to hit, not fashionable, against the current grain and still sticking to what works here.

Plus I use my real name. That takes balls around here.
You're kind of a father figure around here.
Old 15th May 2019
  #143
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BradM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weepit View Post
Ridiculous that this is turning into another silver bullet thread. Only on gearslutz.

A neve and an api in one cheap box! Even better really! Gimme a break.

Who makes money off these again? This place needs to identify the salesmen far better.
That's a fair question.

Basically a bunch of people that take pride in the work they do and the products they create. I do. Bill does. Two transformer winders. Three metal fabricator vendors. A knob vendor. A PCB vendor. A PCB assembly vendor. Mouser, Digikey, Arrow, TAW Electronics, and other various electronic component suppliers. A fastener supplier. A nameplate/label vendor. A box/packaging vendor. E-commerce providers. Hmmm...I think that's just about everyone. Oh yeah, the U.S. government does as well.

I endeavor to make affordable and sonically useful products, and try my best to offer stellar customer service. Thankfully, many folks seem to value those things and want to talk about them.

cheers,
Brad
Old 15th May 2019
  #144
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
I'm easy to hit, not fashionable, against the current grain and still sticking to what works here.

Plus I use my real name. That takes balls around here.
You really think people are more antagonistic because you use your real name?

There are ball-free people here who think they're getting away with BS and incivility because they don't use their own real names, but that's different.
Old 15th May 2019
  #145
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127Riot's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius1 View Post
If you love music, and think todays sound sounds like complete ass, then get all the old gear.

It makes my blood boil when I hear "it's cheaper and it gets the work done faster, way better for my workflow"

Rome wasn't built in a day.

Get sweaty.

Sound first, then workflow to me.

What we need these days is a sh*tload of this aesthetic:



"oh yeah well the Studer A800 plugin sounds just like the original.." You're not going to tell me that a cheap modelling plugin is going to sound the same as a ton of steel bolts, and wiring of Swiss precision.

Yes I'm in the analog camp. Save up, you'll get there eventually. Bin saving since I was 16, and I still want the same thing. Only top tier is good enough.

I sound like Chris Lord Alge..

Anybody that believes a plug in is as good as a 2 inch deck, let them believe it.

It’s not worth trying to educate someone that has never heard a good 2 inch machine spread across a console on playback. In their world it is as good don’t ruin it for them. Hahahahaha
Old 15th May 2019
  #146
Lives for gear
Don't even THINK about it!

If your heart sees a desk and starts fluttering, then DEFINITELY get one.

THAT is the stuff that matters,

You are going to make your best music when you FEEL the best when you are ENJOYING making it, the sound is secondary to this. If you are having fun, you'll find a way to make it sound good.

If you are pecking away on your comp just trying to "Git er' dun" then it's probably going to suck.

ALWAYS go where your woody points.
Old 15th May 2019
  #147
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 127Riot View Post
Anybody that believes a plug in is as good as a 2 inch deck, let them believe it.

It’s not worth trying to educate someone that has never heard a good 2 inch machine spread across a console on playback. In their world it is as good don’t ruin it for them. Hahahahaha
although i do (sometimes) enjoy mixing jazz, blues and rock off 2" through an analog desk, i much prefer recording classical music to a computer and mix it on a digital desk and i wish i could have recorded that many channels back in the days with huge dynamics but without hiss or noise!
imo for acoustic/classical music, digital rules!
(not necessarily itb though...)
Old 15th May 2019
  #148
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127Riot's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by terrible.dee View Post
Don't even THINK about it!

If your heart sees a desk and starts fluttering, then DEFINITELY get one.

THAT is the stuff that matters,

You are going to make your best music when you FEEL the best when you are ENJOYING making it, the sound is secondary to this. If you are having fun, you'll find a way to make it sound good.

If you are pecking away on your comp just trying to "Git er' dun" then it's probably going to suck.

ALWAYS go where your woody points.

^^^ and that’s it!!!!

If it sounds great and does the job that’s what matters. If it inspires you to make music that’s the secret sauce!

Sounds like you found something you like, go for it!

Some people down Mci consoles, I own an mci that was used on 15 gold and platinum records. As well as a bunch of other big radio played songs.

I had a guy on GS say that the Opamps in my console chew up the audio and the specs are horrible. Yet the music made and mixed on my Mci Console has proven itself a great tool to use through 4 decades of extremely Rich Rock n Roll History.

If You listened to a rock radio station in the last 40 years you’ve heard my 428 console.

The song is what matters. A great song/great players trumps a bad recording. Us Gearslutz want great recordings so we constantly analyze our gear and figure out the best way to produce, What doesn’t matter is what a forum of a few trend setters and a lot of trend followers think about a piece of gear. If you like it and it works for you. That’s what matters.

I absolutely love having a console and the color it imparts on sound. When I’m working on a mix certain details sound very familiar to me. That’s because I grew up listening to this console. Not one like it, not the same model number, this exact console. I’m inspired! Fader slide!!!
Old 15th May 2019
  #149
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127Riot's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
although i do (sometimes) enjoy mixing jazz, blues and rock off 2" through an analog desk, i much prefer recording classical music to a computer and mix it on a digital desk and i wish i could have recorded that many channels back in the days with huge dynamics but without hiss or noise!
imo for acoustic/classical music, digital rules!
(not necessarily itb though...)
I agree that some styles of music sound better recorded on some recording mediums over others. I can see classical music benefiting from the accurate reproduction that digital recording provides. Quality conversion at higher sample rates makes a great difference here. IMO
Old 16th May 2019
  #150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
I'm easy to hit, not fashionable, against the current grain and still sticking to what works here.

Plus I use my real name. That takes balls around here.
Hi, as originally I stated, I mean absolutely no disrespect. In fact I am a fan and have used & love your Adcom upgrades. I am only challenging a statement that took a highly subjective matter (especially now - the 2005 comment reflects a past time when I would have agreed with you) and strongly stated in a factual sort of manner a very polarized opinion.

I simply mean to point out that reality is much more grey.
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