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To Console or Not to Console...
Old 9th April 2019
  #31
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EvilRoy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
You're right - better is subjective - totally subjective - but since I'm mixing, I get to be the subjective one, and I say it's better. But seriously, it really is. If the console was any degree of better, it would still be here and I'd be dealing with all the crap it entailed. I didn't get much $$ for it.

I agree about the transparency. Transparency was often what I wanted when I was using tape. Not what I wanted when using digital. With a SB on the m bus insert you can have 3 different console sounds : D&R, API, Neve or even a hybrid.
You do NOT have to sell me on the SB. That's another piece of gear where the total is more than the sum of it's parts. Don't know if I'll ever have 6 but one is top of the priority list, this console practically screams for it. I didn't want to buy gear on credit but made an exception for the D&R, one more year of payments. Not buying anything over $100 until it's paid off (I so NEEEEED a Leslie) but then it's on to the outboard upgrade. The SB is first up.
Old 9th April 2019
  #32
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRoy View Post
I so NEEEEED a Leslie) but then it's on to the outboard upgrade. The SB is first up.

Hmmm...i've got my eye on a local A100 that's got a souped up Leslie, but I've already got two leslies...... You're making me think.... What model do you need? I've got a 122 and a 120 that I use for Gtrs...

The A100 has a 122 thats hot rodded and in a 145 cab.
Old 9th April 2019
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Dubuis View Post
Until you go in the infinity loop of revision...
Seen quite a few mid tier consoles (especially without automation) turn into giant mouse pads..
Old 9th April 2019
  #34
Gear Head
 

I've been seriously thinking about something like the SSL XL-Desk but since I specialize in recording and mixing singer songwriters/duos it is really kind over over kill for me. It think the console falls into the lust category for me. As an alternative I was thinking about picking up a 2nd Silver Bullet and running one on the A output and one on the B output of the Rupert Neve 5059. Since I rarely record more than 3-4 channels at a time this would give me 4 great pre-amps plus I could run my outboard pre-amps through the Silver Bullet for different flavors. Seems like it would be similar to a small console without faders.
Old 9th April 2019
  #35
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EvilRoy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Hmmm...i've got my eye on a local A100 that's got a souped up Leslie, but I've already got two leslies...... You're making me think.... What model do you need? I've got a 122 and a 120 that I use for Gtrs...

The A100 has a 122 thats hot rodded and in a 145 cab.
You realize of course, that you are now a God to me.

As mentioned, nothing over $100 until the D&R is paid off. We shall talk again next year... and thank you.

Old 9th April 2019
  #36
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRoy View Post
You realize of course, that you are now a God to me.

As mentioned, nothing over $100 until the D&R is paid off. We shall talk again next year... and thank you.


I'm afraid thke A100 and it's leslie will be gone by then...... But I completely understand your commitment to budgets.
Old 9th April 2019
  #37
This subject is pretty much like talking about religion or politics...

This subject is pretty much like talking about religion or politics...

Just like any other piece of analog gear, a console can be a colored machine or a neutral one...

Take SSL's for example: SSL E/G/G+ desks had a tone that love or hate would do something to the mix based on how hard to you hit the channels and mixbus. The VCA's additionally had their own color (changed the tone and dynamics of the desk as a whole). The J, K, Duality, AWS, Matrix, etc. all had a more transparent sounds much closer to the ITB thing, with good ol' SSL functions but not the classic sound.

I'm still glued to the whole "track through tape via CLASP/PT on a Neve/API and mix on a classic SSL". Myself or any engineer I've worked with has not attained that sound for rock/live instrumentation without those tools. It's a subjective preference that I cannot do without. I personally get bored of the sound without the gear of "the glory days".

When it comes to modern styles, I find the ITB productions still benefit from tape and mixing on a console. I'd estimate that nearly every client/artist/engineer/producer who works out of my studio prefers what's been run through analog gear (even in every blind test).

Maybe someday in the future "the masses" of people (including 99% of Gearslutz) will passionately HATE the sound of analog, which at that time I will run for the hills, retire and be the lonely old analog guy.

If you're like "the masses", ITB is the present and future of a world where everything is quick, easy and painless. If you're like me, you'll NEVER be satisfied with the ITB world. But, be warned, you might be chased with pitchforks for "clinging onto the past."

Figure out which camp your heart resides in and play your game YOUR way!
Old 9th April 2019
  #38
Deleted be25781
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike-661 View Post
Maybe someday in the future "the masses" of people (including 99% of Gearslutz) will passionately HATE the sound of analog, which at that time I will run for the hills, retire and be the lonely old analog guy.

If you're like "the masses", ITB is the present and future of a world where everything is quick, easy and painless. If you're like me, you'll NEVER be satisfied with the ITB world. But, be warned, you might be chased with pitchforks for "clinging onto the past."

Figure out which camp your heart resides in and play your game YOUR way!
I'll join you on that lonely hill.. I would start a cult of grumpy men with crazy headgear, like tape reels turned into crowns and sick revved up dune buggies.

protecting an SSL 4000 altar while being slain by a group of millennial 20 somethings. As we cringe under the hot sun and their flat ITB mixed battle music.
Old 10th April 2019
  #39
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I have not used a digital console, but my 96 i/o HDX system with full TT bays has substantially better routing options than my analog desk. Faster, more recallable, and reliable.

my studer vista has substantially more configuration and routing options than my mci (or any daw i came across) - i'd never buy an analog desk in 2019, wouldn't even take any for free...
Old 10th April 2019
  #40
I’m kinda thinking the API Box 2 May be the answer
Old 10th April 2019
  #41
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uptheoctave's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHolyMountain View Post
With the SSL Matrix, I essentially assign whatever pre/comp/eq from my racks to individual channels correct?
Yes, say you have 16 channels of outboard - a mixture of mix-bus compressors, tracking compressors and EQ's etc.
They get connected to the send/returns on the Matrix and can be called up either for tracking or mix down, as required.

The configuration of the board can be stored for recall- it is one of the most well thought out integrations of a a small console with a DAW.

You have what you need but no duplication of functions that you would get from your outboard.
Old 10th April 2019
  #42
Deleted be25781
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHolyMountain View Post
I’m kinda thinking the API Box 2 May be the answer
Here's a tip:

Check out the Ocean Audio Ark console, you can fill those up with API 500 series modules. Or any other flavor you want basically. Malcolm Toft knows his stuff. I would buy one over the API box if I didn't have the SSL.

The Matrix will be obsolete one day because of it's innards.
Attached Thumbnails
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Old 10th April 2019
  #43
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127Riot's Avatar
 

Consoles Rule!

Do you need it, no. You don’t need a studio either.

I had a console got rid of it, was never satisfied. Now I have a console again and couldn’t be more satisfied.

If I’m going to spend the time and effort recording and mixing I’m going to do it the way that gives me that GREAT this is [email protected]&ing Awesome feeling.

This is just me and I’m just a home studio dork so don’t listen to me listen to you.

Every console, like a Preamp, eq, Comp, & microphone has a sound, make sure you get one with a sound you like.

Some sound as good as they look others sound even better!
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Old 10th April 2019
  #44
Everyone's needs are different, and your preferences maybe best for you but not for everyone.

My preference would be to have the SSl XL desk with at least 8 SSl Eq's in the penthouse along with 2 API, and 4 Rupert Neve 500 series and two additional SSl. Second option is the updated API The Box. Not only is having a console fun, but being able to geb faders and EQs, not needing to grab a mouse or look at a monitor screen to adjust things as your using your ears is just great.

But if money was not an option, a SSl AWS console would be king..... for me. I love this video that shows mixing on a SSl.
YouTube

Last edited by Glenn Bucci; 10th April 2019 at 01:54 PM..
Old 10th April 2019
  #45
If you do post, music for film, jingles and dance music, skip the console. You will make more $ without it.

If you record real musicians playing real music in real time in a real space, you want the console.
Old 10th April 2019
  #46
Deleted be25781
Guest
I wonder how many people would not have a console if we would all be loaded and able to pay for a Neve 8068 or a fully equipped Duality, and have the space for it.
Old 10th April 2019
  #47
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted be25781 View Post
I wonder how many people would not have a console if we would all be loaded and able to pay for a Neve 8068 or a fully equipped Duality, and have the space for it.
I'd have to say probably me.

Don't get me wrong, I like hardware in front of me. A LOT of hardware. But I get that with my sterling mastering desk and a buttload of outboard gear that is carefully chosen and put into position right in front and at my fingertips for mixing.

Rather than have a "traditional console" sitting in the sweet spot with a ton of pre-chosen for me, redundant and unused knobs, I have gear that is selected exactly for what it brings to the table. For stuff that I need to use while sitting in the "sweet spot", it's right there in front of me. Not behind me or over on the side of the studio like it would HAVE TO BE with a traditional console layout.
I'd have to say that when I had my console in place, probably 60-70+ percent of the pots and switches on it didn't get used once a year - and I was working EVERY day. That's a HUUUUUUUGE real estate loss in an area that's hyper critical for me - the mixing sweet spot.

I guess you could say I still have a "console"-esque workflow with a bunch of gear sitting in front of me, but it's RADICALLY different approach than a pre-configured "console" that's 30 years old and focused towards how music USED to be made.

Yeah, people still think they want "consoles", but what most of them really need is something that suits a modern workflow with a hardware component that satisfies their slutty GAS.
Old 10th April 2019
  #48
Deleted be25781
Guest
Workflow is one thing, having a 1968 Mustang Shelby versus a Tesla Model S is another. Both are awesome, one smells like old burning wires, nostalgia, and grease, the other like a fresh out of the box iMac.

Totally understand your point of view though.
Old 10th April 2019
  #49
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cheu78's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius1 View Post
Here's a tip:

Check out the Ocean Audio Ark console, you can fill those up with API 500 series modules. Or any other flavor you want basically. Malcolm Toft knows his stuff. I would buy one over the API box if I didn't have the SSL.

The Matrix will be obsolete one day because of it's innards.
There's actually a completely remade "new" ark console (and it looks even better) called Ark 8 made by Interphase Audio..

totally modular between their own modules and 500 series ones.. very clever..looks terrific

Ark console

love the MCI of 127Riot!



Cheu
Old 10th April 2019
  #50
Lives for gear
CONSOL! WTF!?! OF CORSE CONSOL!

You'll hear from all kinds of people in this business who seem dedicated to eliminating "fun" and "sexy" as factors to consider....just remember YOU are the one sitting in front of it for 4176517615 hours...So I suggest making your cockpit as "Cool" for you as possible.

.....oh, and be prepared to break out the wallet, what you want will cost you a few bucks. But not as much as some might suggest, you can get something worthy for a few grand.

NO, there is nothing currently being made that you want. Don't even bother looking, it's not there (unless that Laptop sized Neive thing appeals to you...personally, I'd be more inclined to use it as a TV tray.) Please don't use the word "Toft" around me, I consider it racist.

YES, maintenance will be something you need to deal with on day one. YOU must HAVE a TECH lined up, who will CHECK the thing OUT before you even USE it (preferably before you BUY it)

It's hard....but...OOOOH is it worth it!...... Sometimes, I just move faders around because I CAN!
Old 10th April 2019
  #51
Lives for gear
 
EvilRoy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by terrible.dee View Post
Sometimes, I just move faders around because I CAN!
Motor faders, dude. Totally pointless these days, but sometimes I don't move the faders because I CAN, haha!

I guess different people have different priorities. Consoles are fun... and if it's not fun, it's not worth my time. I really think you guys are underestimating it's value as a chick magnet though. Client magnet too. Those guys are idiots.

Old 10th April 2019
  #52
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spectacular g's Avatar
16 channel Daking MKII would be nice.

G
Old 10th April 2019
  #53
Lives for gear
 
127Riot's Avatar
 

Hobby Lobby!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 View Post
There's actually a completely remade "new" ark console (and it looks even better) called Ark 8 made by Interphase Audio..

totally modular between their own modules and 500 series ones.. very clever..looks terrific

Ark console

love the MCI of 127Riot!



Cheu
Thanks Cheu!
It’s a pleasure to play on that’s for sure. I use every feature, function, and knob. It’s the center piece of my studio that ties all my Outboard together.

This board has a ton of great musical transformers that really add a color I like.

It’s Rock n Roll!

Below is a video I just made where I break down part of a song on an album I’m in the process of mixing.

The band is a 3 piece that tracked 12 songs live to tape in one session. Tracking the basic tracks Drums, Bass, & Guitar together live, then we overdubbed the vocals and 2 guitar tracks. That’s it, live musicians playing together in a room. No click, no grid, just instruments, mics, & preamps to tape Monitoring and Mixing on a Console.

It’s fun.

YouTube

Thanks Again.
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Old 10th April 2019
  #54
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHolyMountain View Post
I’m kinda thinking the API Box 2 May be the answer
I did this, plus 3x Apollo 8's and my outboard. It's a best of both worlds set up.

I was also very strongly considering the XL Desk, or just adding the X-Desk to a Sigma. No regrets here.
Old 11th April 2019
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark714 View Post
I did this, plus 3x Apollo 8's and my outboard. It's a best of both worlds set up.

I was also very strongly considering the XL Desk, or just adding the X-Desk to a Sigma. No regrets here.
How are you running things? I spoke with some folks at Vintage King, in theory, I could record through API to Pro Tools and dump to tape during summing after tinkering in Pro Tools, either 24 track or as low as 2 track. That sounds pretty appealing to me.
Old 11th April 2019
  #56
Lives for gear
 

If I had the space I would definately return to using a console.

I always think not having one is like trying to paint your house through the letter box

That said I wouldn't want a cheap one, something with a high quality signal path, also they take up mucho space and as pointed out need an extensive and expensive patchbay system.

All the reasons unfortunately why I can't have a console.

I get the fact commercial mixer etc have moved away from them, but for personal music making the feel and workflow is just fantastic and for tracking/ jamming and writing there's nothing that can beat it.

I wish I had the space .... one day
Old 11th April 2019
  #57
My console is only for mixing. Its a 500 series Ocean with no pre amps just Compressors, effects and SSL/Harrison eq. Apart from 16 Neve/BAE in a built in side car. All my pre amps are tube in separate racks.
It's the perfect mixer and feels lovely to sit at.
Old 11th April 2019
  #58
I use an analog console to mix because it has a greater dynamic range, s/n ratio and lower THD and IMD than any ITB mixing format. My mix buss does -134 db IMD at a 2000v/us slew rate with a 30 MHz bandwidth. I get -90 db stereo crosstalk at 10k hz, best I've measured in an analog format. I get zero degrees of phase shift, 20~20k hz. It's time-aligned like no converter/filter can do.

It can't be bested for depth and imaging by any computer based format. It's true 3D mixing with stuff coming out from the sides and behind. It shines on acoustic music recorded in a live room. It's overkill for post, film, jingles and dance music.
Old 11th April 2019
  #59
Lives for gear
 
EvilRoy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
I use an analog console to mix because it has a greater dynamic range, s/n ratio and lower THD and IMD than any ITB mixing format. My mix buss does -134 db IMD at a 2000v/us slew rate with a 30 MHz bandwidth. I get -90 db stereo crosstalk at 10k hz, best I've measured in an analog format. I get zero degrees of phase shift, 20~20k hz. It's time-aligned like no converter/filter can do.

It can't be bested for depth and imaging by any computer based format. It's true 3D mixing with stuff coming out from the sides and behind. It shines on acoustic music recorded in a live room. It's overkill for post, film, jingles and dance music.
I've heard about this console before and mods you've done for other desks. I've also heard you're not fond of D&R, lol. Nevertheless, I keep wondering what you could do with mine. It already specs out well, up to 200khz w/o VCAs (30khz with) and also claims -90db crosstalk. drBill used to rep them and claims D&R had the lowest phase distortion in the biz. I've always been a big believer in slew rate specs but don't know what it is for the D&R. It uses TL072s throughout, good but could be even better. I picked up a couple of tape decks as a hobby and need to buy a scope. Still have to calibrate the desk but would like to measure it more thoroughly. Currently reading "Electronics for Dummies", hahaha.

That's another thing you can do with consoles you can't do digitally, pop the top and switch out the carburetor.
Old 12th April 2019
  #60
https://www.ebay.com/i/283437512240?ul_noapp=true

Somebody in the bay area go get this, and try running something through it.
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