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Neumann KH 750 - read before you buy it
Old 5th May 2020
  #61
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As I mentioned before while using the kh750 you can use the whole set of EQ Filters for your analog kh120. There is also phase correction after setting the EQ curve afaik. Therefore the kh750 is more a overall system addition instead of a sub. But.. you need access to the iPad(only) Neumann Control app for using this function. The eq filter works flawless here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dickiefunk View Post
I’m using the KH120’s with an Eve TS108 sub and really like this combo. However, I’ve been wondering if the KH750dsp applies any DSP to the KH120’s? If it did, wouldn’t it kinda be like having KH120 DSP’s?? If the KH750 does apply DSP to the KH120’s to improve them I would be quite interested in this but the TS108 is working well and the remote control that comes with it is a real workflow asset for me!
Old 6th May 2020
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaoka86 View Post
As I mentioned before while using the kh750 you can use the whole set of EQ Filters for your analog kh120. There is also phase correction after setting the EQ curve afaik. Therefore the kh750 is more a overall system addition instead of a sub. But.. you need access to the iPad(only) Neumann Control app for using this function. The eq filter works flawless here.
Hmm thanks for this info. This is definitely very interesting as I would prefer to have the slightly larger KH120’s over the KH80’s as I also use them for location work! If the KH750 effectively turns the KH120’s into KH120DSP’s it could be a good overall improvement to my monitoring setup?
However, the KH750 costs £700 more than I paid for my EVE TS108. The Eve TS108 is a great sounding sub and the remote control feature is brilliant!
Old 6th May 2020
  #63
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Imo the KH80 are the perfect solution for location jobs. They are lightweight, small footprint and have the build in DSP for quick room compensation. I would go for the KH80 over the KH120. They don't sound tiny in comparison to the kh120 at all.

If you integrate the TS108 properly there is no need to switch for the kh750 expect you need the DSP eq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dickiefunk View Post
Hmm thanks for this info. This is definitely very interesting as I would prefer to have the slightly larger KH120’s over the KH80’s as I also use them for location work! If the KH750 effectively turns the KH120’s into KH120DSP’s it could be a good overall improvement to my monitoring setup?
However, the KH750 costs £700 more than I paid for my EVE TS108. The Eve TS108 is a great sounding sub and the remote control feature is brilliant!
Old 9th May 2020
  #64
Since I couldn't find Info on that:
Does anyone of you know whether the DSP in the Kh750 does anything Neumann-specific to the Kh120 or Kh310? I mean besides the possibility to tweak FR with the EQ - which could be done with any other monitor regardless of brand, too?
Also: Do I really have to buy a used iPad?? The way they keep mentioning the iPad in the literature makes me wonder if they are going to issue a desktop app at all...
Old 12th May 2020
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VOMike View Post
Also: Do I really have to buy a used iPad?? The way they keep mentioning the iPad in the literature makes me wonder if they are going to issue a desktop app at all...
That sounds (hehe) like a big red flag to me.

Hardware companies doing software always has the risk of them running out of steam and dropping hardware or OS version support before the customer is ready to move on. Assuming they get fully working software put together for a reasonable set of platforms in the first place. Or at all.
Old 12th May 2020
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt View Post
(...) Hardware companies doing software always has the risk of them running out of steam and dropping hardware or OS version support before the customer is ready to move on. Assuming they get fully working software put together for a reasonable set of platforms in the first place. Or at all.
you know what's even more troubling? when neumann bought klein+hummel, they (meaning k+h) had a very capable dsp controller for their speakers! it's ridiculous that neumann didn't carry on with this part of their acqusitition - can't be THAT difficult to link several processors in 2020?!
Old 12th May 2020
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
you know what's even more troubling? when neumann bought klein+hummel, they (meaning k+h) had a very capable dsp controller for their speakers! it's ridiculous that neumann didn't carry on with this part of their acqusitition - can't be THAT difficult to link several processors in 2020?!
Software is always nasty, and many business people don't understand that. I mean software engineering is just arranging a semi-random sequence of 0 and 1 into a slightly less random one. How hard can it be?

The result is that software development teams often get dropped or disabled on acquisitions. Or the one person who understands how the software and the build process works is being pissed off from being treated like a worthless mechanical worker when the acquisition's new managers come in.
Old 12th May 2020
  #68
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
you know what's even more troubling? when neumann bought klein+hummel, they (meaning k+h) had a very capable dsp controller for their speakers! it's ridiculous that neumann didn't carry on with this part of their acqusitition - can't be THAT difficult to link several processors in 2020?!
So there was basically a proprietary solution available? At least as a starting point? Well...
With KS Digital you can purchase a Controller to get access the DSP settings for 900€. Annoyingly expensive but that's somehow easier to understand than "iPad only"...
Old 12th May 2020
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VOMike View Post
So there was basically a proprietary solution available? At least as a starting point? Well...
With KS Digital you can purchase a Controller to get access the DSP settings for 900€. Annoyingly expensive but that's somehow easier to understand than "iPad only"...
http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/klein...048_030703.PDF

the k+h pro c28 was way more expensive back then the ks digital controller - can occasionally be found rather cheap these days...
Old 29th May 2020
  #70
Gear Maniac
I've really enjoyed the KH 750 - with the app I've been able to get my system measuring flat in Sonarworks all the way down to 20hz, and that's in a small room with lots of issues (and a good amount of treatment). So it's been great for me. Unfortunately, I live in a duplex, and my neighbor is less enthusiastic about the bass coming through the wall, so it looks like I have to sell mine. Drop me a line if you're interested!
Old 29th May 2020
  #71
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Where are you based?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gammon2004 View Post
I've really enjoyed the KH 750 - with the app I've been able to get my system measuring flat in Sonarworks all the way down to 20hz, and that's in a small room with lots of issues (and a good amount of treatment). So it's been great for me. Unfortunately, I live in a duplex, and my neighbor is less enthusiastic about the bass coming through the wall, so it looks like I have to sell mine. Drop me a line if you're interested!
Old 6th June 2020
  #72
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Neumann says on their website that the crossover frequency can be changed via the iPad app, but I have looked and there is no way of doing it. Does anyone know if Neumann published this and never implemented the feature?
Old 7th June 2020
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anaudiopro View Post
Neumann says on their website that the crossover frequency can be changed via the iPad app, but I have looked and there is no way of doing it. Does anyone know if Neumann published this and never implemented the feature?
I wasn't able to find a specific single control for global crossover frequency in the app, but what I ended up doing was more flexible and, at least in my case, worked better. There are low-pass and hi-pass EQ options for both the Sub and the Speakers, so after much experimentation and measuring I ended up having the sub low-passed at around 130hz and the speakers hi-passed at around 90hz. That ended up filling a hole in the response in my room and both measured and sounded better to me than having both filters set at the same frequency, so it was nice to have the flexibility to do that.
Old 7th June 2020
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gammon2004 View Post
I wasn't able to find a specific single control for global crossover frequency in the app, but what I ended up doing was more flexible and, at least in my case, worked better. There are low-pass and hi-pass EQ options for both the Sub and the Speakers, so after much experimentation and measuring I ended up having the sub low-passed at around 130hz and the speakers hi-passed at around 90hz. That ended up filling a hole in the response in my room and both measured and sounded better to me than having both filters set at the same frequency, so it was nice to have the flexibility to do that.
But doesn't the sub still only pass 80 Hz and above to the mains? What if I want the mains to handle say down to 50 Hz?
Old 3rd August 2020
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anaudiopro View Post
But doesn't the sub still only pass 80 Hz and above to the mains? What if I want the mains to handle say down to 50 Hz?
But what for? Crossover in KH750 is optimized for every KH monitor and it's flawless from KH80 to KH310.

I have used setup 120+750 in different rooms and now I'm sharing room with my friends and one guy was really scepitcal (SUBS? ONLY FOR PA!), but it takes like 30 minutes and some testing to turn his head around.

Also I've tested Eve TS108, because I wanted cheaper solution for KH120 but it was kinda boomy in my room. So I bought KH750 with thought that it can't do much better and it will probably go back. Boy, I was so wrong.

Closed box of 750 is getting everything right for me with sound being tight and controlled (I mainly produce and mix trap and electronic music nowadays).

New room is beautifully acoustically treated so I can hear everything down to 35Hz pretty clear and quite flat and I don't think there's way back.
Old 3rd August 2020
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taivanski View Post
But what for? Crossover in KH750 is optimized for every KH monitor and it's flawless from KH80 to KH310.

I have used setup 120+750 in different rooms and now I'm sharing room with my friends and one guy was really scepitcal (SUBS? ONLY FOR PA!), but it takes like 30 minutes and some testing to turn his head around.

Also I've tested Eve TS108, because I wanted cheaper solution for KH120 but it was kinda boomy in my room. So I bought KH750 with thought that it can't do much better and it will probably go back. Boy, I was so wrong.

Closed box of 750 is getting everything right for me with sound being tight and controlled (I mainly produce and mix trap and electronic music nowadays).

New room is beautifully acoustically treated so I can hear everything down to 35Hz pretty clear and quite flat and I don't think there's way back.
I am currently using and Eve TS108 with the KH120's and am really liking this combo. However, I'm also curious to hear the KH750 sub as it's been optimized to use with the Neumann range of speakers!
One of the main things that has put me off is the remote control feature of the TS108 is so good and useful. The Neumann iPad app doesn't look to be as good. Also, the Neumann goes down an extra 15hz lower than the Eve and I'm concerned about this being too much for my small room! I realise the KH750 is sealed but I've had another sealed sub here before that goes similarly low as the KH750 and it sounded seriously boomy! Whilst the TS108 isn't sealed it does use a passive radiator which works well at keeping the sound tight and not having bass overhang.

How do you connect the KH750 to the ipad app? Do you plug it into the ethernet port on your PC and share the same wifi or do you need a separate router?
Old 3rd August 2020
  #77
Quote:
Originally Posted by anaudiopro View Post
But doesn't the sub still only pass 80 Hz and above to the mains? What if I want the mains to handle say down to 50 Hz?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taivanski View Post
But what for? Crossover in KH750 is optimized for every KH monitor and it's flawless from KH80 to KH310.

Whatever sounds good for your room should be used and there are no definitive rules; but to point a few things out:

80 Hz crossover is the standard for THX systems, and most people using systems for music set the subs differently. 50 Hz or so is still directional and is beneficial to hear from the stereo mains.

In general you want to set the subwoofer crossover to 1.5 octave above the -3db low point of the mains.

One subwoofer is generally not optimum, and can actually cause more problems in a room. Two subwoofers are usually better as they excite the bass peaks and dips less than one sub.
Old 3rd August 2020
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanEldred View Post
50 Hz or so is still directional and is beneficial to hear from the stereo mains.
njet - you'd be hard pressed to get a real-world measurement showing any meaningful directivity from a pair of spaced speakers at 50hz...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanEldred View Post
In general you want to set the subwoofer crossover to 1.5 octave above the -3db low point of the mains
nope - you had it much better before; to paraphrase: there are no rules and you better chose whatever gets you the spl, fr and phase coherence you're looking for...
Old 4th August 2020
  #79
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
njet - you'd be hard pressed to get a real-world measurement showing any meaningful directivity from a pair of spaced speakers at 50hz...
There are enough overtones/harmonics/distortion in instruments in the real world to hear directional cues at 50hz.


Quote:
nope - you had it much better before; to paraphrase: there are no rules and you better chose whatever gets you the spl, fr and phase coherence you're looking for...

Yes, measuring for performance in the real world is better. Not everyone does this, and 1.5 is just a starting place that tends to work much of the time. The person I quoted implied 80hz is best for the KH 310. Its +/- spec for LF is 34Hz. I know first hand that 50hz crossover (1.5x) is about the area it can integrate nicely with subs. Can it be lower or maybe higher? Yes.
Old 4th August 2020
  #80
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Any word on being able to set these up with two 750's using the app? I'm about to pick up a pair to place under my 310s. It also means I have an 805 for sale in fantastic shape if someone is interested.
Old 4th August 2020
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanEldred View Post
There are enough overtones/harmonics/distortion in instruments in the real world to hear directional cues at 50hz.
well kinda: overtones/harmonics/distortion stemming/being caused by lf and hence higher up the fr - but not 50hz on their own...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanEldred View Post
Yes, measuring for performance in the real world is better. Not everyone does this, and 1.5 is just a starting place that tends to work much of the time. The person I quoted implied 80hz is best for the KH 310. Its +/- spec for LF is 34Hz. I know first hand that 50hz crossover (1.5x) is about the area it can integrate nicely with subs. Can it be lower or maybe higher? Yes.
there's really not much to be gained from any generic setting: it's the specific room and positioning of speakers which lets them perform and interact in a specific way. and of course i am assuming that everyone serious about the performance of his/her monitors should learn how to measure/interpret data and align speakers or then get the system optimized/aligned by a pro!
Old 4th August 2020
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dickiefunk View Post
I am currently using and Eve TS108 with the KH120's and am really liking this combo. However, I'm also curious to hear the KH750 sub as it's been optimized to use with the Neumann range of speakers!
One of the main things that has put me off is the remote control feature of the TS108 is so good and useful. The Neumann iPad app doesn't look to be as good. Also, the Neumann goes down an extra 15hz lower than the Eve and I'm concerned about this being too much for my small room! I realise the KH750 is sealed but I've had another sealed sub here before that goes similarly low as the KH750 and it sounded seriously boomy! Whilst the TS108 isn't sealed it does use a passive radiator which works well at keeping the sound tight and not having bass overhang.

How do you connect the KH750 to the ipad app? Do you plug it into the ethernet port on your PC and share the same wifi or do you need a separate router?
KH750 it's some kind of magic - no boominess at all. PURE BASS.
I was allergic to subwoofers before because all cheap ones are very boxy sounding.

I took router to plug 750 and connect ipad (borrowed from work ) to wifi. It's maybe not the most convenient way but it works. Also the app is quite good with possibility to delay sub or satellites to make it more phase coherent (0,3ms on 120's and now image is much better).
Old 4th August 2020
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taivanski View Post
KH750 it's some kind of magic - no boominess at all. PURE BASS.
I was allergic to subwoofers before because all cheap ones are very boxy sounding.

I took router to plug 750 and connect ipad (borrowed from work ) to wifi. It's maybe not the most convenient way but it works. Also the app is quite good with possibility to delay sub or satellites to make it more phase coherent (0,3ms on 120's and now image is much better).
Ah thanks . Is it possible to mute the sub and have just the satellite speakers by themselves?
Old 4th August 2020
  #84
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From the app you can switch off the bass management which bypasses the sub and leaves just the satellites. You can also of course mute each speaker individually or create groups to mute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dickiefunk View Post
Ah thanks . Is it possible to mute the sub and have just the satellite speakers by themselves?
Old 4th August 2020
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msflsim View Post
From the app you can switch off the bass management which bypasses the sub and leaves just the satellites. You can also of course mute each speaker individually or create groups to mute.
Ok great! Thankyou
Old 5th August 2020
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msflsim View Post
From the app you can switch off the bass management which bypasses the sub and leaves just the satellites. You can also of course mute each speaker individually or create groups to mute.
This is my niggling concern about the 750. I'd love to have a hard-wired way to bypass the sub without having to mess about with an ipad. Didn't subwoofers used to come with a footswitch input to bypass?

Am looking to pick one up to help my o300's, but this iPad thing bothers me. Besides it being another screen in a studio environment where I struggle to get rid of screens whenever possible, I worry it will one day end up being unusable (ipad app version no longer supported or something of that nature..)

Not a problem if bass management is taken care of by the console, but might render the setup a hassle for simpler itb setups in the future.

i'm already having to nurse old iphones and ipads that are all crunchy and have no battery life left in order to keep older digital gear running(Sound Devices 788T w/ Cl-Wifi) - and the first Iphone is only 13 years old at this point..
Old 5th August 2020
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo.b View Post
This is my niggling concern about the 750. I'd love to have a hard-wired way to bypass the sub without having to mess about with an ipad. Didn't subwoofers used to come with a footswitch input to bypass?

Am looking to pick one up to help my o300's, but this iPad thing bothers me. Besides it being another screen in a studio environment where I struggle to get rid of screens whenever possible, I worry it will one day end up being unusable (ipad app version no longer supported or something of that nature..)

Not a problem if bass management is taken care of by the console, but might render the setup a hassle for simpler itb setups in the future.

i'm already having to nurse old iphones and ipads that are all crunchy and have no battery life left in order to keep older digital gear running(Sound Devices 788T w/ Cl-Wifi) - and the first Iphone is only 13 years old at this point..
I think that the slight inconvenience outweighs the benefit of the sound. Whilst a footswitch would be useful I don' think it's needed IMO.

Because of the DSP that needs to be handled by the KH750 I don't mind the solution. During the time I had the KH750 I only really used the bypass to check what the difference was between the KH310s by themselves and with the sub.
Old 6th August 2020
  #88
adl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msflsim View Post
I think that the slight inconvenience outweighs the benefit of the sound. Whilst a footswitch would be useful I don' think it's needed IMO.

Because of the DSP that needs to be handled by the KH750 I don't mind the solution. During the time I had the KH750 I only really used the bypass to check what the difference was between the KH310s by themselves and with the sub.

May i ask how much of a difference it was?
I own the 310s and think they deliver plenty of bass (doing Trap and Techhouse getting speakers with solid Bass was important to me). I actually liked the idea on getting a more "bass in your face" sound with those speakers only was appealing.
Old 6th August 2020
  #89
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At first listen i was surprised how little the sound changed and thought i setup something wrong. The more i listened and compared i realised 2 things.

1) the kh310 on their own handle bass really really good and area very comparable to the sub

2) in combination with the kh750 you basically get another ostave and you can definitely feel it, there is more power coming out of the system. The kh310s also open up so much with the sub because they are working less making everything more separated and clear in the low end.

I really liked the combination and will definitely get a kh750 maybe even a pair.

I'd say it's a 15-25% increase. It won't matter for all genres but for those that depend on that lowest octave it makes a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adl View Post
May i ask how much of a difference it
was?
I own the 310s and think they deliver plenty of bass (doing Trap and Techhouse getting speakers with solid Bass was important to me). I actually liked the idea on getting a more "bass in your face" sound with those speakers only was appealing.
Old 6th August 2020
  #90
adl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msflsim View Post
At first listen i was surprised how little the sound changed and thought i setup something wrong. The more i listened and compared i realised 2 things.

1) the kh310 on their own handle bass really really good and area very comparable to the sub

2) in combination with the kh750 you basically get another ostave and you can definitely feel it, there is more power coming out of the system. The kh310s also open up so much with the sub because they are working less making everything more separated and clear in the low end.

I really liked the combination and will definitely get a kh750 maybe even a pair.

I'd say it's a 15-25% increase. It won't matter for all genres but for those that depend on that lowest octave it makes a difference.

Thanks for the detailed answer!
I had the Adam A7 monitors with an Adam Sub before I switched to the Neumanns and felt that I lost a little bit of bass, but not that much. But I could definitely hear clearer when I set a lowcut to like 28Hz or 32Hz, compared to the Neumanns without a sub. Still not to keen to integrate a sub again, as the room is practically the living room even though it is treated with a Bass trap and some broadband absorbers. But the opening up on the 310's when used with a sub sounds interesting. Do you think this is especially when mixing rather loud? Like 80dB and up?
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