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Bryston+BW or high end monitors?? Studio Amplifiers
Old 26th March 2019
  #31
Lives for gear
 

Aaaannd we’re done (with you) here.

So long, sonny.
Old 28th March 2019
  #32
Gear Nut
Dear Burp and Dinococcus...Maybe you could settle your personnal disputes using personnal messages? Just a suggestion...

Thank anyway for the constructive and useful discussions


Dan

Last edited by DanTheMan06; 28th March 2019 at 04:19 AM.. Reason: typo
Old 28th March 2019
  #33
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by burp182 View Post
I don’t think this has come up yet - what is your budget for the system?
I do not like to give a number for a budget. Some of us are in Canada, United states, Europe or even Asia! What does a number means?

As i mentionned I could by a 3B3 or 4B3 Bryston with a BW pair 804D3 but I found A pair of bW 802D for $8500 used and a pair of used Tannoy Kensington for $7500 CDN.

I whink that a $15000 CDN would be possible but it is elastic. I would be happy to pay less and get a killer system, or maybe pay more if it is a hell of a good deal.

I do not spend for cars and very little for clothing. I prefer to put my $$ for things that will last and provide years of pleasure.

Dan
Old 28th March 2019
  #34
Lives for gear
 

Dan, I have great patience for folks in a discussion with differing viewpoints but very little for someone adding nothing but noise. I simply blocked him (the only time I’ve ever done that) and moved on. Tried being respectful and got nothing in return. Oh well....

I asked about budget simply to suggest appropriate pieces for you. Nothing worse than having a modest budget and having someone suggest a Wilson Audio/Pass Audio system. Likewise having a healthy budget and getting recommendations for Tannoy Reveals and a Marantz integrated amp. Horses for courses.

As I thought about your room and requirements, I kept coming back to ATC 100s. While a new pair would strain the budget, a lightly used set would slot right in. The active versions are tri-amped and the included amplifiers are standalone quality. There are three versions that have the same components and internal volume but different finishes and form factors. All will do the job identically. The dome midrange drivers are a unique and remarkable transducer for that most critical tonal range. I think they would be accurate, exhibit low listener fatigue, have enough oomph to excite the room and be a solid investment. If you haven’t had opportunity to audition them, I think it might prove time well spent.

As always, YMMV.
Old 28th March 2019
  #35
Lives for gear
 
Sugarnutz's Avatar
My mains are a set of B&W DM604 S2 i got NIB at a pawn shop for cheap driven by 2 sets of bridged pairs in a McIntosh 7106 = 320 watts into 8 ohms. These have a DBX 223XS crossover set for 150 Hz with the lo-pass into a Hafler P7000 "Diablo" driving a no-name pair of 15"/4 ohm ported subs with 500 watts per channel. All in I've got about $2.8K tied up in the set. It works!

Old 28th March 2019
  #36
Gear Head
Dan, I have had Tannoy Prestige speakers in my home setup (Turnberrys). I enjoyed them tremendously for what they do, but to me they are for hifi enjoyment only. I wouldn't find them useful for mastering. They are colored by design and the high end is not very extended. ATCs would be an ideal choice, but B&W 800 series with Bryston would be a fine choice too. You will hear much deeper into the recording.
Old 28th March 2019
  #37
Gear Nut
Monitors vs passive Hi-Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by GB Kuipers View Post
Dan, I have had Tannoy Prestige speakers in my home setup (Turnberrys). I enjoyed them tremendously for what they do, but to me they are for hifi enjoyment only. I wouldn't find them useful for mastering. They are colored by design and the high end is not very extended. ATCs would be an ideal choice, but B&W 800 series with Bryston would be a fine choice too. You will hear much deeper into the recording.
Thank you this is useful.

Yep coloration from the Tannoy Prestige...I am not too surprised and this is the kind of info that you will not get on the specs sheet. It is one of the reasons that I have a tendency to better trust studio monitors than Hi-Fi componenents. I was hoping that high-End passives components would be as good as studio monitors. It seems it might be the case with Bower and Wilkins.

Aside of coloration, Flatneess from 30 to 20 Khz would be nice but can be corrected to a large extent in the studio. Phase problems bother me, Are top end studio monitors less prone to phase issues than top-end Hi-fi passive speakers like BW's? I suspect that phase issues at cross-overs being one cause of fatigue.

One of the reasons why Hi-fi might be better is that at low frequency, when you get close to the natural vibration frequency of the woofer, you will have sudden change in impedance, tendency to phase problems, will be more difficult to get a tight, well controlled, bass etc. I think that the best thing would be to buy a systems that can (according to the spec sheet) go down to 20 hz EVEN IF YOU DO NOT NEED IT. With such a system (BW 804D3 is +/- 3 db at 24 Hz), can we assume that the artefacst will be in the lower, useless range and that we will be safe at higher frequency range? Like higher than 31 Hz (lowest note for 5 string bass) ? What do you think?

ATC has two lines of products : professional (monitors) and consumer (hi-fi). It seems that they take good care of phase issues, coherence, etc. It looks very impressive. They are also very honest in providing the frequency range (linearity) were they will be within +/- 2db. I will check the price for these units.

Still, I am surprised that even with their biggest Pro monitor scm300asl-pro/ the +/- 2db goes only from 50 Hz to 12 KHz. It may not be better that BW on that aspect.

I will carefullly consider at ATC.

Thank you,

Dan
Old 28th March 2019
  #38
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTheMan06 View Post
Still, I am surprised that even with their biggest Pro monitor scm300asl-pro/ the +/- 2db goes only from 50 Hz to 12 KHz. It may not be better that BW on that aspect.
Hifi generally states -10dB for what the low end cut off is where ATC is stating -2dB. It's a pretty large difference. (Honestly, below -6dB is unusable but it still doesn't stop makers from using -10dB numbers in Hifi -- including B&W)

Second, unlike freefield, in-room response will seriously boost sub 80 Hz for speakers. I can say this confidently as my 100ASL are -3dB at 25Hz in a real room (my studio.)
Old 28th March 2019
  #39
Gear Nut
ATC vs Bower & Wilkins

Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
Hifi generally states -10dB for what the low end cut off is where ATC is stating -2dB. It's a pretty large difference. (Honestly, below -6dB is unusable but it still doesn't stop makers from using -10dB numbers in Hifi -- including B&W)
The BW 804-D3 are +\- 3 db at 24 Hz. Might be free field also unless they also sell the room to match their products!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
Second, unlike freefield, in-room response will seriously boost sub 80 Hz for speakers. I can say this confidently as my 100ASL are -3dB at 25Hz in a real room (my studio.)
This is good to know. My room would enhance frequencies 30 to 40 Hz.

With the 100ASL, are bass, piano, organ, bass tuba or else be, tight, well controlled and free of artefacts between 30 Hz and 45 Hz? Does the ATC struggles in this frequency range as it needs to rely on the room?

100ASL is $23,000 CDN. I have to weight the cost/performance ratio compared to a Bryston 3b3 combined to BW 804D3 for a total of $16,000.

Thank you,

Dan,

Last edited by DanTheMan06; 28th March 2019 at 09:35 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 28th March 2019
  #40
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTheMan06 View Post
The BW 804-D3 are +\- 3 db at 24 Hz. Might be free field also unless they also sell the room to match their products!!
Two 6.5" woofers with a speaker sensitivity of 89db SPL (which isn't sensitive by modern standards) are not doing 24Hz at -3dB (heck the 802 and 800 struggle at 24 Hz.) That is, at the minimum, a 1/2 space measurement and at some ridiculously low output level (not free field -- btw you can ask ATC for 1/2 space measurements too.) By low output level, say you measure a speaker at 65 dBC and then give that claim as the flat frequency response boundaries. Now try doing that with 85 dbC signal and you see the boundaries shift. Officially, a manufacturer could claim the 65 dBC numbers as that's still a respectable level but a speaker that can do that same flat line at a higher level of SPL is more capable. And the first place you see the boundaries change when you increase level is the low frequencies (due to the amount of power and excursion needed to increase output for a woofer.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTheMan06 View Post
This is good to know. My room would enhance frequencies 30 to 40 Hz.
That's not how that works. All rooms (boundaries) emphasize the same frequencies for low frequencies. On top of that, some rooms have modal issues due to dimensions that also peak/dip other frequencies in the low-end -- which is probably what you are thinking of (we try to eliminate those issues in professional studios.) Two different things. The first part is true for all traditional speakers near all boundaries due to the spherical nature of low frequencies reflecting off of boundary walls. The room doesn't matter -- just the distance of the speaker to the walls/ceiling/floor. The modal issues are dependent on each room (dimensions)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTheMan06 View Post
With the 100ASL, are bass, piano, organ, bass tuba or else be, tight, well controlled and free of artefacts between 30 Hz and 45 Hz? Does the ATC struggles in this frequency range as it needs to rely on the room?
There is no struggle. If you hear any of the larger ATCs set up correctly you'd understand why the question is funny. It's a little like getting wet from a wave coming from the ocean and getting wet from a garden hose. Both get you wet. ATCs are like the ocean -- you know there's a massive amount of reserve that could crush you behind that wave. Like I mentioned before, the bass is still coming from the speaker driver; it's the 1/2 sphere that was going to the back wall now reflecting forward to reinforce the front wave. The port tuning of the 100ASL is 30Hz (low-end reinforcement from the bass reflex design.) So it has its 4th order drop off (steep) starting at 25Hz.

The 804D is also bass reflex but I have no idea what the tuning is. It may also be around 30-35Hz if they are claiming 24Hz for -3 dB (because those two woofers are definitely not accomplishing that -- it most likely is from the peak of the port resonance)

And just doing the math, the surface area equivalent of the 804D's two woofers is a single 9.19" woofer (diameter.) The 100ASL has a 12.36" woofer (diameter). So the amount of air movable is much larger.

Last edited by pentagon; 28th March 2019 at 10:29 PM..
Old 28th March 2019
  #41
Lives for gear
 

ATC is a very conservative company as far as their quoted specifications. They will normally comfortably exceed published figures. They are also extremely linear, so their response is useful across the entire range. Your room will likely be more of a factor in any LF issues that might crop up.
Check with both hi-fi and pro dealers about lightly used units. This should help with budget considerations. Make sure that any speakers under consideration are the “SL” models, as these are the latest and best controlled drivers (hence the Super Linear designation).
Versus the B&W/3B combo, the ATC power pack is more powerful and is an active triamp, as opposed to a passive crossover. Both are quite lovely. I think the ATC units will be a better listening experience, but there’s no way to lose here.
Old 29th March 2019
  #42
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
All rooms (boundaries) emphasize the same frequencies for low frequencies. On top of that, some rooms have modal issues due to dimensions that also peak/dip other frequencies in the low-end -- which is probably what you are thinking of (we try to eliminate those issues in professional studios.) Two different things. The first part is true for all traditional speakers near all boundaries due to the spherical nature of low frequencies reflecting off of boundary walls. The room doesn't matter -- just the distance of the speaker to the walls/ceiling/floor. The modal issues are dependent on each room (dimensions)
Thank you for your explainations. Studio acoustics and proper use of loudspeakers or monitors is where I have the most to learn.

The room where the system will be installed is heavily damped with bass traps acoustic foams, diffusors, etc. in order to minimized any modal resonnances. I think it is what should be done if you want to do critical mixing and mastering. Some on this threads says my room will be the larger factor to consider if I want to hear the low frequencies. My understanding is that if the room was 100% damped then there would be 0 contribution from the room, just like if there were no walls. If some think that my room size is the main factor for hearing the low fequencirs, is this because it is nearly impossible, at a reasonnable cost, to elimminate ALL modal resonances?

This is what I assumed from their answers. In my room, any remaining, but unwanted resonnance, will reinforce 30 Hz and may cause dips somewhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
The first part is true for all traditional speakers near all boundaries due to the spherical nature of low frequencies reflecting off of boundary walls. The room doesn't matter -- just the distance of the speaker to the walls/ceiling/floor.
Does it means that there should be no foam, traps or diffusers on the wall behind my loudspeakers/monitors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
The 804D is also bass reflex but I have no idea what the tuning is. It may also be around 30-35Hz if they are claiming 24Hz for -3 dB (because those two woofers are definitely not accomplishing that -- it most likely is from the peak of the port resonance)
24 hz at -3db if from BW web site. I found test results more in-line with your opinion.

hometheaterreview BW-804-d3

And

Stereophile BW-804-D3

I will get in touch with ATC in order to discuss their low frequency response ond other topics.

Thank you very much,

Dan
Old 29th March 2019
  #43
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by burp182 View Post
ATC is a very conservative company as far as their quoted specifications. They will normally comfortably exceed published figures. They are also extremely linear, so their response is useful across the entire range. Your room will likely be more of a factor in any LF issues that might crop up.
Check with both hi-fi and pro dealers about lightly used units. This should help with budget considerations. Make sure that any speakers under consideration are the “SL” models, as these are the latest and best controlled drivers (hence the Super Linear designation).
Versus the B&W/3B combo, the ATC power pack is more powerful and is an active triamp, as opposed to a passive crossover. Both are quite lovely. I think the ATC units will be a better listening experience, but there’s no way to lose here.
Thank BURB182.

I will seriously consider the ATC ASL series. I will get in touch with them in order to get more info, application notes etc.

The room for this system is highly damped with foam diffusers, traps, etc. as, in my opinion, it should be for critical mixing and mastering. When you said that my room ''will likely be more of a factor in any LF issues that might crop up.'' are you thinking about some remaining, unwanted, modal resonnance? In my room this will be around 30 hz.

Thank you,

Dan
Old 29th March 2019
  #44
Lives for gear
 

In addition to modal resonances, bass energy has a tendency to pass through drywall and damping to excite the actual underlying architecture. I’ve had several friends who found entire walls reinforcing frequencies in ways they never expected. You just never know till you excite the room and listen.

Fun!
Old 29th March 2019
  #45
Gear Nut
Thank BURP,

Only problem is that if I buy the active ATC I will have no excuse to buy my nice Bryston amp!!!

Have a great day,

Dan
Old 29th March 2019
  #46
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTheMan06 View Post
If some think that my room size is the main factor for hearing the low fequencirs, is this because it is nearly impossible, at a reasonnable cost, to elimminate ALL modal resonances?

This is what I assumed from their answers. In my room, any remaining, but unwanted resonnance, will reinforce 30 Hz and may cause dips somewhere else.



Does it means that there should be no foam, traps or diffusers on the wall behind my loudspeakers/monitors?
No. Hard boundaries are hard boundaries (wall mass). There is virtually no way to remove those effects (short of being in an outdoor space) and at the same time, our understanding of acoustics shows we benefit (for efficiency of energy usage) using bounded space. Almost nothing you put up (foam/traps/diffusers) is actually having a noticeable effect on truly low frequencies. That is why flush mounting speakers is still a major advantage (moving the wall mass boundary to have the speakers project into a 2pi space)

Absorption/diffusion behind the speaker do help elsewhere but not for true low frequencies.
Old 29th March 2019
  #47
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTheMan06 View Post
24 hz at -3db if from BW web site. I found test results more in-line with your opinion.

hometheaterreview BW-804-d3

And

Stereophile BW-804-D3
Yes, looks I guessed correctly. Both measurements show port tuning at 30Hz. And by both, 45-50 Hz is the true cut-off for professional usage. And if you are wondering what two speakers with more or less the same port tuning have different cut-offs, it's because the ATC 100ASL woofer is still generating sound at usable levels when the port reinforcement comes into play. The B&W 804D has the woofers peaking out around 100Hz and in complete roll off by the time the port comes to rescue the signal
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