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Are there any near-field monitors better than the ATC SCM25s
Old 4th March 2019
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Wilson View Post
Do you by any chance remember what amplifier was powering the Strauss monitors when you heard them?
Yes, a Bryston 2.5B.

Have you heard them?
Old 4th March 2019
  #92
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loji's Avatar
The issue is :

- XYZ problem (in this case SBIR, resonances, etc..)

Is an analog or digital implementation 'better' (ie: more effective) at solving this problem?


an 'analog system' solution consists of bass trapping, room acoustics, angles, pressure loading, etc... (altering physical properties) to control the expression of the Problem ... These address the Problem directly.

additionally driver technology/innovation (materials, construction, etc..) are part of this analog system solution.

Northward and ATC are a top-tier 'analog system' to accomplish a solution to this Problem.


a 'digital system' solution utilizes DSP before the analog conversion (driver movement/transaction) to avoid exciting the Problem in the first place.

In the end it will always come back to being a section of an analog system solution (physical cone movement/room interaction = analog system) a DSP system alters the cone movement (timing/freq response) with the inverse of the room 'problems'..... this can cause it's own set of issues (limited headroom, cone-breakup if too extreme a correction is attempted) etc ...

but the 8 feet of rockwool needed for some analog solutions has problems too your space might not fit that


A digital system doesn't change the physical space to remove the interaction, it attempts to avoid it from the start (cardiod bass, DSP phase steering, digital switching amps, etc..) ie: don't fix it, mitigate it.


Two solutions to the same set of problems.

You can never have a 100% DSP/digital solution... the final transducer will always come from an analog only system. but DSP processing can be a life-saver if you don't have the space/budget for a full 'analog system solution'. 8' of rockwool in your backwall, 15' ceiling, and soffit mount, etc... isn't reasonable for everyone


In short : the playback chain is a sum of parts (listener, room, driver, amp, tastes). the ultimate goal is a transduction system that is "accurate", "engaging", "insert your adjective here", it can be accomplished many many ways


to answer the OP question. ATC are great. Buy them, try them ... if you don't like it for whatever reason (taste, room junk, etc..) they are very easy to re-sell and are proven to hold excellent value.
Old 4th March 2019
  #93
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Jantex's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by loji View Post
The issue is :

- XYZ problem (in this case SBIR, resonances, etc..)

Is an analog or digital implementation 'better' (ie: more effective) at solving this problem?


an 'analog system' solution consists of bass trapping, room acoustics, angles, pressure loading, etc... (altering physical properties) to control the expression of the Problem ... These address the Problem directly.

additionally driver technology/innovation (materials, construction, etc..) are part of this analog system solution.

Northward and ATC are a top-tier 'analog system' to accomplish a solution to this Problem.


a 'digital system' solution utilizes DSP before the analog conversion (driver movement/transaction) to avoid exciting the Problem in the first place.

In the end it will always come back to being a section of an analog system solution (physical cone movement/room interaction = analog system) a DSP system alters the cone movement (timing/freq response) with the inverse of the room 'problems'..... this can cause it's own set of issues (limited headroom, cone-breakup if too extreme a correction is attempted) etc ...

but the 8 feet of rockwool needed for some analog solutions has problems too your space might not fit that


A digital system doesn't change the physical space to remove the interaction, it attempts to avoid it from the start (cardiod bass, DSP phase steering, digital switching amps, etc..) ie: don't fix it, mitigate it.


Two solutions to the same set of problems.

You can never have a 100% DSP/digital solution... the final transducer will always come from an analog only system. but DSP processing can be a life-saver if you don't have the space/budget for a full 'analog system solution'. 8' of rockwool in your backwall, 15' ceiling, and soffit mount, etc... isn't reasonable for everyone


In short : the playback chain is a sum of parts (listener, room, driver, amp, tastes). the ultimate goal is a transduction system that is "accurate", "engaging", "insert your adjective here", it can be accomplished many many ways


to answer the OP question. ATC are great. Buy them, try them ... if you don't like it for whatever reason (taste, room junk, etc..) they are very easy to re-sell and are proven to hold excellent value.
The best post in this thread and one of the best for any monitor choice threads overall
Old 23rd May 2019
  #94
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcgood View Post
Amphion One 15s sound more linear, flat and just a better mixing/mastering speaker to my ear with a class A/B amp and a good sub like a Dynaudio
Can you recommend an Amp for ONE15?
Don't like the Amp100?
Old 10th July 2019
  #95
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palermo View Post
I realize best is almost always a relative term. Particualry with regard to character pieces. Like the age old question who of the current manufactures makes the best 1073 which can never be definitively answered because it will ultimately come down to what particular set of colorations the user finds subjectively most pleasing.

With pro audio monitors. We are not looking for euphonics, we are looking for accuracy. I want to hear what’s actually there, nothing added or subtracted Accuracy is not so subjective. So in that regard, the metrics for what makes a better monitor should have greater consensus and be more universally applicable. (Of course taking into account room variations)

Upper mids are so critical because everything from ambience cues to vocal texture is going to found there. ATC 25s do mids as good or better than anything I’ve heard except maybe for some exotic audiophile monitors like full range electrostats.

So to return to the question. Is anyone using any near field monitors that they find better. Thanks in advance.
My search for the ideal nearfield monitor ended with Geithain RL944K1 and Basis 11K sub). I use them for about 3,5 years now and I would not trade them for anything. I love their unbiased, refined sound signature, and especially their midrange transparancy. This sound signature is very much to my personal liking.

The RL944K extends quite a bit deeper than the SCM25A, but both are not full-range.
The smallest Geithain sub (Basis 11K) is large, but still much smaller than the ATC SCM0.1/12SL.

My personal preference of the Geithain sound signature, the fact that the Geithains are cardioid and the size of the matching sub made me prefer the Geithains. But I consider the ATC SCM25A top-tier nearfield monitors. I liked their midrange accuracy, allthough very different signature (ATC more bright/forward and Geithain more nuanced/refined) but I liked both. Both provide incredible midrange detail like I know from no other monitor.
Old 10th July 2019
  #96
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assuming proper room treatment, the best free standing nearfields imo are passive, actively driven, coax and with external dsp - not much of a choice really...
Old 10th July 2019
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
assuming proper room treatment, the best free standing nearfields imo are passive, actively driven, coax and with external dsp - not much of a choice really...
passive, actively driven?

No offence but what kind kind of nonsense is this?

None of this indicates a speaker. All of it is wrong.
Old 10th July 2019
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
passive, actively driven?

No offence but what kind kind of nonsense is this?

None of this indicates a speaker. All of it is wrong.
compañero!

in the old world (or at least in the german speaking area), many speaker designers/manufacturers (used to) refer to 'active' vs 'passive' with regard to internal or external amplifier (as you do) BUT ALSO use the term 'actively driven' if an external (active) crossover gets used (vs a passive internal x-over).

the way i drive my tannoy system 10 dmt would be an example: lake processor/x-over, lab gruppen amps, each leg (high and low) gets individually powered: 2-way, passive, actively driven (or bi-amped if you prefer).

no nonsense, just confusing - it wasn't me who made up this term though!
Old 10th July 2019
  #99
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Anything using an active crossover (with amps after the crossover) is an active speaker. By definition.

And the passive vs active speaker does not define a speaker (good or bad) but all active speakers have an advantage (driver impedance.)
Old 10th July 2019
  #100
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you call a speaker with a built-in amp a 'powered speaker', right?

in german, there is no such term: we call it 'aktiv-lautsprecher'...
Old 10th July 2019
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
you call a speaker with a built-in amp a 'powered speaker', right?.
No.

That's just a speaker with an amp built in.

Only PMC calls that "activated" as a marketing term. I, nor anyone in the industry, call it that BS term much like calling plastic "fine Corinthian leather."
Old 10th July 2019
  #102
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look around and you'll see different terms being used for the very same thing (and similar or the same terms for different things), like it or not!

need more examples? level, phase and goniometer: these are all 'instruments' (in german)! - what's a monitor? - what do you get when you order a pizza peperoni? or just order an 'eiskaffee'/café glacé in france and see what you'll get :-) - where's stage left/right? i've seen large productions getting loaded onto the wrong side of the stage!

i could go on...


p.s. meyer uses the term 'self-powered'

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 10th July 2019 at 11:53 PM.. Reason: p.s. added
Old 10th July 2019
  #103
Lives for gear
Remember accuracy is not necessarily what people look for in nearfields - NS10s being the obvious example. Personally I prefer my genelecs with GLM to the ATC50s I used. However looking back - even though I HATED using the ATC 50s - everything I mixed on them sounds pretty great .
Old 10th July 2019
  #104
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martijn W View Post
My search for the ideal nearfield monitor ended with Geithain RL944K1 and Basis 11K sub). I use them for about 3,5 years now and I would not trade them for anything. I love their unbiased, refined sound signature, and especially their midrange transparancy. This sound signature is very much to my personal liking.

The RL944K extends quite a bit deeper than the SCM25A, but both are not full-range.
The smallest Geithain sub (Basis 11K) is large, but still much smaller than the ATC SCM0.1/12SL.

My personal preference of the Geithain sound signature, the fact that the Geithains are cardioid and the size of the matching sub made me prefer the Geithains. But I consider the ATC SCM25A top-tier nearfield monitors. I liked their midrange accuracy, allthough very different signature (ATC more bright/forward and Geithain more nuanced/refined) but I liked both. Both provide incredible midrange detail like I know from no other monitor.
The new Geithain RL934K is almost the same size and price as the 944, but has a 10" bass instead of an 8" one and goes down an extra 5Hz to 30Hz.
Old 10th July 2019
  #105
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
you call a speaker with a built-in amp a 'powered speaker', right?

in german, there is no such term: we call it 'aktiv-lautsprecher'...
Yes.

What is basically a passive loudspeaker with a built-in amplifier is a "powered loudspeaker".

An active loudspeaker is one with an active crossover feeding separate amplifiers - one amp for each driver.

It's a shame if you cannot differentiate between them in the German language as they are quite different.
Old 10th July 2019
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Yes.

What is basically a passive loudspeaker with a built-in amplifier is a "powered loudspeaker".

An active loudspeaker is one with an active crossover feeding separate amplifiers - one amp for each driver.

It's a shame if you cannot differentiate between them in the German language as they are quite different.
merci!

didier

entre chien et loup
Old 10th July 2019
  #107
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Kronos147's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Yes.

What is basically a passive loudspeaker with a built-in amplifier is a "powered loudspeaker".

An active loudspeaker is one with an active crossover feeding separate amplifiers - one amp for each driver.
On the Vintage King and Sweetwater websites, they have two flavors under studio monitoring; "Active' & 'Passive.'

Are you saying their active monitors may only have an active built in crossover, and not an amp?

I took it to mean basically powered vs. unpowered.

Who knew?
Old 10th July 2019
  #108
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kronos147 View Post
On the Vintage King and Sweetwater websites, they have two flavors under studio monitoring; "Active' & 'Passive.'

Are you saying their active monitors may only have an active built in crossover, and not an amp?

I took it to mean basically powered vs. unpowered.

Who knew?
I would say that it's misleading to call a powered monitor "active" as it's basically just a passive monitor with a built-in amp.

A true active monitor has an active crossover designed specifically for that loudspeaker, driving separate amplifiers tailored for each driver, driving each loudspeaker directly.

So an active monitor will have an electronic crossover plus several separate amplifiers (one for each driver) built in.

Both passive and powered monitors have a passive crossover.

I know some people misuse the term but a true active monitor is a very different beast from a powered one.
Old 10th July 2019
  #109
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What John said.

And it doesn't matter if the crossovers or amps are built in or not for it to be an active speaker. I can give multiple examples where external active crossovers and external amps are used for an active speaker: Guzauski-Swist, (modern) Augspurgers, PMC top-line speakers (their true active speakers not the "activated" marketing models), ATC SCM 200ASL/300ASL, etc.
Old 11th July 2019
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
What John said.

And it doesn't matter if the crossovers or amps are built in or not for it to be an active speaker. I can give multiple examples where external active crossovers and external amps are used for an active speaker: Guzauski-Swist, (modern) Augspurgers, PMC top-line speakers (their true active speakers not the "activated" marketing models), ATC SCM 200ASL/300ASL, etc.
Agreed - "Active" means an active crossover and a separate amplifier for each driver.

There are several monitors that have the crossover/amplifier section outside the loudspeaker cabinet with an umbilical from this to the joudspeaker box (EG: the Egg monitors and the Geithain K1 series).
Old 11th July 2019
  #111
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ToddP's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kronos147 View Post
On the Vintage King and Sweetwater websites, they have two flavors under studio monitoring; "Active' & 'Passive.'

Are you saying their active monitors may only have an active built in crossover, and not an amp?

I took it to mean basically powered vs. unpowered.

Who knew?
I could be mistaken, but I don't think either or those stores sell powered monitors that are not active (except Avantone, which needs no crossover anyway so could be called active). Neither carries PMC.

Last edited by ToddP; 11th July 2019 at 04:23 PM.. Reason: spelling
Old 12th July 2019
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddP View Post
I could be mistaken, but I don't think either or those stores sell powered monitors that are not active (except Avantone, which needs no crossover anyway so could be called active). Neither carries PMC.
https://vintageking.com/recording/st...-for-recording

Auratones, ATC SCM12, ProAc SM100, Quested H108, JBL, … but yeah, slim pickings.
Old 12th July 2019
  #113
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You quoted passives. His reference was to powered. Todd is still right. Note “powered”
Old 12th July 2019
  #114
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cheu78's Avatar
to go back to the OP thread title...

After 10 years of being launched the ATC scm25 proved to be a very reliable, professional tool, that sounds and performs incredibly well.

Honestly I can't think of a better monitor even after 10 years, this is a testament to their build quality and how good they are as a mixing tool.

Of course as with every monitor is a matter of how they do integrate into the room (from an acoustical perspective) and the "taste" of the engineer, but the scm25 shows immediately what's wrong in the mix or mic placements without being fatiguing. That's what every monitor should do.

I'm very aware that there are some others nice monitors on the market and every engineer will have his fav anyway...

but for me the scm25 (as all the atc line) offers something really special here:
it saves second guesses, bad surprises and time (which in the end is money).
It's so good to KNOW what you're doing all the time. This for me it's priceless and what makes them so good.



Cheu
Old 4 weeks ago
  #115
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusss View Post
Remember accuracy is not necessarily what people look for in nearfields - NS10s being the obvious example. Personally I prefer my genelecs with GLM to the ATC50s I used. However looking back - even though I HATED using the ATC 50s - everything I mixed on them sounds pretty great .
Isn't that kinda how you know you're on a good system? When it's not very fun but the results translate? That's my perspective at least.

Re the original topic, I haven't used either, but I have yet to hear anyone who's tight on space say they wish they'd never gotten those Genelecs or Barefoots. Obviously if you can fit the ATC's go for it, or feel free to send them my way if you can't!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #116
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myles's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nwmusicman View Post
Isn't that kinda how you know you're on a good system? When it's not very fun but the results translate? That's my perspective at least.
That might be a "good" system, but wouldn't a better system be one that is fun and the results translate?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 View Post
to go back to the OP thread title...

After 10 years of being launched the ATC scm25 proved to be a very reliable, professional tool, that sounds and performs incredibly well.

Honestly I can't think of a better monitor even after 10 years, this is a testament to their build quality and how good they are as a mixing tool.

Of course as with every monitor is a matter of how they do integrate into the room (from an acoustical perspective) and the "taste" of the engineer, but the scm25 shows immediately what's wrong in the mix or mic placements without being fatiguing. That's what every monitor should do.

I'm very aware that there are some others nice monitors on the market and every engineer will have his fav anyway...

but for me the scm25 (as all the atc line) offers something really special here:
it saves second guesses, bad surprises and time (which in the end is money).
It's so good to KNOW what you're doing all the time. This for me it's priceless and what makes them so good.



Cheu
full support on all levels - the thing is though that one could say the same for a couple of other systems too!

on a pro level, we're long beyond the point where gear really matters (unless it does...): imo it's mostly just about what flavour du jour one prefers...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #118
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nyandres's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 View Post
to go back to the OP thread title...

After 10 years of being launched the ATC scm25 proved to be a very reliable, professional tool, that sounds and performs incredibly well.

Honestly I can't think of a better monitor even after 10 years, this is a testament to their build quality and how good they are as a mixing tool.

Of course as with every monitor is a matter of how they do integrate into the room (from an acoustical perspective) and the "taste" of the engineer, but the scm25 shows immediately what's wrong in the mix or mic placements without being fatiguing. That's what every monitor should do.

I'm very aware that there are some others nice monitors on the market and every engineer will have his fav anyway...

but for me the scm25 (as all the atc line) offers something really special here:
it saves second guesses, bad surprises and time (which in the end is money).
It's so good to KNOW what you're doing all the time. This for me it's priceless and what makes them so good.



Cheu
RELIABILITY IS SUPER IMPORTANT.. I Kept Lipinski's over ATC for sound... One time it failed on me and took like 2-3 months to get a fix... I still love them, but I always get scared if something happens again, to have to wait ages again for a solution.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #119
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusss View Post
Remember accuracy is not necessarily what people look for in nearfields - NS10s being the obvious example. Personally I prefer my genelecs with GLM to the ATC50s I used. However looking back - even though I HATED using the ATC 50s - everything I mixed on them sounds pretty great .
With bold statements it would be helpful to explain what Genelecs you are talking about and what you exactly hated about the ATCs
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