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Choosing the right sub, with no experience Studio Monitors
Old 1 week ago
  #1
Gear Head
 

Choosing the right sub, with no experience

Hi!

I need a subwoofer to complement my pair of 8-inch Eve SC208. The idea would be to both get somewhat lower (than the 208's 36Hz bottom), and releive the 208s from some of the workload. In other words, I'd like to 1. get louder before clipping overall (I make EDM), and 2. have better awareness of what's happening in the lowest freqs.

Note that my control room is quite large, if that's of any relevance.

What would I need to complement my pair of Eve SC208, and how cheap can I get without sacrificing too much of their great sound ? If I am to buy a sub of a lesser quality than my monitors (because my wallet is not infinitely extensible), then I suppose I'd like the crossover frequency to be still low enough so that I don't take away more bass than necessary from them.

Thanks for any advices, since I've never bought a sub before.
And thanks for pointing to any flaw in my reasoning.

ps.: you can assume neighbours are not an issue ;-)
Old 1 week ago
  #2
Gear Head
 

Here are the models I've already considered, just from reading specs online :

I suppose the consistent choice would be a 12'' Eve sub. Or an Adam one, because both series sound close to each other, in my experience. Alas, they are a tad too expensive for me.

My next choice would be a KRK 12'' sub (12S2) that's more affordable. Or maybe the 10'' 10S2: super affordable, but would it still significantly improve my setup ?

Then I see this Monkey Banana 10'' sub (the Turbo 10s), somehow priced between both KRK models, that boasts impressive specs for its price. But when I go to their website ( active subwoofer Turbo 10s – Monkey Banana ), they seem to be aiming at prosumers rather than professionals... So what's the catch ? Does anyone have any experience with it ? It is, on paper, the most appealing to me, but what is it worth in practice ?

Going still lower in price, the Mackie MR10S Mk3 could be an excellent choice, but it is also the least loud of all considered here: 113dB at 1m - I have no idea how loud that is in practice. Also, the absence of an input for a bypass pedal switch will require me to knock together a bypass box... not a deal breaker I guess.
Old 1 week ago
  #3
A double 8" monitor setup will require a quite powerful sub. How do you plan to run it? The most fool-proof way would be routing stereo outputs through the sub where monitor outs would get hi-passed. At the same time if you'd be willing to use separate sets of outputs for the sub and monitors from your interface, then potentially you'd be able to get a better integration between the two. You would then be able to use home theater subs from brands like SVS or Rythmic, which offer better bang for buck than studio monitor companies.
Old 1 week ago
  #4
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrodulf View Post
A double 8" monitor setup will require a quite powerful sub.
That's what I worry about.

Another solution for loudness would be to have a pair of PA speakers as main monitors, and keep the Eves as nearfield. But PA in the price range we're talking about (750€ is what I'm ready to invest) don't even go as low into the bass as my SC208. So it would only fulfill one of my two aims: loud but not low. Do you think I'd better settle for that ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrodulf View Post
How do you plan to run it? The most fool-proof way would be routing stereo outputs through the sub where monitor outs would get hi-passed. At the same time if you'd be willing to use separate sets of outputs for the sub and monitors from your interface, then potentially you'd be able to get a better integration between the two.
I'm considering the former, because most subs already contain the appropriate crossover filter. Many subs can accomodate a remote bypass switch (like a pedal or something), which is the integration I want. What else could I want ? A way of changing the xover freq, or the sub/main balance, directly from my desk ? But wouldn't that just mess up my sense of reference ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrodulf View Post
You would then be able to use home theater subs from brands like SVS or Rythmic, which offer better bang for buck than studio monitor companies.
Oh, right. Then maybe the Monkey Banana Turbo 10s falls into that category, quality wise, while still providing control room features like an onboard variable crossover, and a bypass switch connector...

EDIT: I just went to SVS's website... You're right, they boast even more impressive power and low end than the MB. I suppose the tradeoffs are precision and linearity ?
Old 1 week ago
  #5
mrc
Lives for gear
You should really consider rythmik audio sealed subs. They have a servo feedback system that compares the signal going in to what the cone is doing and compensates for any difference. This will lower the box resonaces and will make the cone stop much faster compared to non servo subs. Also, sealed enclosures have the advantage of a better phase response. That s why many manufacturers of ported subs don t even publish the phase response graph.

They have many models, from cheaper ported class d amp to more expensive sealed class a/b.
I m using a couple of F12G and i can say they outperform anything else i ve heard. I m not having the buyers bias, they are really good. I m pretty sure that even the cheaper class d ported subs will outperform anything in your list, mainly due to the servo feedback system. Btw, all the subs you were considering are ported class d.

This is a measurement i did with one of the subs. There is a freq graph and a phase graph.
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Choosing the right sub, with no experience-1e2f652f-6f3f-4f42-bd9e-a752884eaadc.jpeg  
Old 1 week ago
  #6
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrc View Post
You should really consider rythmik audio sealed subs. They have a servo feedback system that compares the signal going in to what the cone is doing and compensates for any difference. This will lower the box resonaces and will make the cone stop much faster compared to non servo subs. Also, sealed enclosures have the advantage of a better phase response. That s why many manufacturers of ported subs don t even publish the phase response graph.

They have many models, from cheaper ported class d amp to more expensive sealed class a/b.
I m using a couple of F12G and i can say they outperform anything else i ve heard. I m not having the buyers bias, they are really good. I m pretty sure that even the cheaper class d ported subs will outperform anything in your list, mainly due to the servo feedback system. Btw, all the subs you were considering are ported class d.

This is a measurement i did with one of the subs. There is a freq graph and a phase graph.
Thanks for the advice. So, no port. And servo is a plus. That's good to know.

I just skimmed through Rythmic's site, and I like it. Unfortunately, they don't seem easy to find in Europe. (As for SVS, they are imported by the boatload, but cost significantly more than in the US :-/)

Also, with a hifi/ht subwoofer, wouldn't I need to buy a separate crossover filter in addition, if I want to highpass the main pair ?
Old 1 week ago
  #7
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrc View Post
You should really consider rythmik audio sealed subs. They have a servo feedback system that compares the signal going in to what the cone is doing and compensates for any difference. This will lower the box resonaces and will make the cone stop much faster compared to non servo subs. Also, sealed enclosures have the advantage of a better phase response. That s why many manufacturers of ported subs don t even publish the phase response graph.

They have many models, from cheaper ported class d amp to more expensive sealed class a/b.
I m using a couple of F12G and i can say they outperform anything else i ve heard. I m not having the buyers bias, they are really good. I m pretty sure that even the cheaper class d ported subs will outperform anything in your list, mainly due to the servo feedback system. Btw, all the subs you were considering are ported class d.

This is a measurement i did with one of the subs. There is a freq graph and a phase graph.
while your sub seems to measure nicely, i'd never want to use a sub with just a 12db/octave low pass filter - and ported subs can perform very good (albeit with a different phase behaviour).


Quote:
Originally Posted by fredje View Post
Hi!

I need a subwoofer to complement my pair of 8-inch Eve SC208. The idea would be to both get somewhat lower (than the 208's 36Hz bottom), and releive the 208s from some of the workload. In other words, I'd like to 1. get louder before clipping overall (I make EDM), and 2. have better awareness of what's happening in the lowest freqs.

Note that my control room is quite large, if that's of any relevance.

What would I need to complement my pair of Eve SC208, and how cheap can I get without sacrificing too much of their great sound ? If I am to buy a sub of a lesser quality than my monitors (because my wallet is not infinitely extensible), then I suppose I'd like the crossover frequency to be still low enough so that I don't take away more bass than necessary from them.

Thanks for any advices, since I've never bought a sub before.
And thanks for pointing to any flaw in my reasoning.

ps.: you can assume neighbours are not an issue ;-)
i'm happy with my neumann kh810 for my tannoy surround setup (and there is a never/smaller version out, kh750 dsp; they both go very low) - i'm using external dsp to adjust and align all my speakers though...
Old 1 week ago
  #8
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i'm happy with my neumann kh810
I bet you are ! But it's 3 to 4 times my budget.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i'm using external dsp to adjust and align all my speakers though...
This could make a lot of a difference, I suppose.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
(and there is a never/smaller version out, kh750 dsp; they both go very low)
Does that do what your external DSP does ? Nice specs indeed, but still twice my budget.

Am I unreasonable to hope for a solution < $1000 ?
Old 1 week ago
  #9
Lives for gear
 

some external dsp's capabilities are far beyond what's included in active speakers with dsp, but yes, one can mostly get away with a delay and a few filters. in fact, with clever positioning, there may not be much alignment needed, especially in small rooms - this offers a few hints:

The Elephant In The Control Room |

cannot tell much on what's going in the second hand market or in the lower price range but i've seen the kh805 (same as 810 but 'limited' for use with 2.1 systems) go for around 1k.

i'd rather use a decent sub or check lf by headphones than getting a sub which doesn't go low enough, especially when mixing music which relies on quite a bit of low end ooompf!
Old 1 week ago
  #10
mrc
Lives for gear
The rythmik subs have fixed 50 and 80hz 24dB/oct lpf plus a 12dB/oct variable lpf. They also have monitor outs with a built in hpf. Plus many other options like rumble filters, different type of hpf, an eq for room integration and a delay. All analog. So with all those options, one could integrade the sub without going trough a dsp (and that can be considered an advantage for some).

I m not in any way affiliated with them, someone here told me to check them out when i was searching for subs and now i consider that i got a lot for the money. It s a really good deal and i would advise anybody searching for a sub to try them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
while your sub seems to measure nicely, i'd never want to use a sub with just a 12db/octave low pass filter - and ported subs can perform very good (albeit with a different phase behaviour).




i'm happy with my neumann kh810 for my tannoy surround setup (and there is a never/smaller version out, kh750 dsp; they both go very low) - i'm using external dsp to adjust and align all my speakers though...
Old 1 week ago
  #11
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
I have been using this sub for five years. Very impressed for the price. Monolith Plus -FF
Old 1 week ago
  #12
Gear Addict
 
Blaine Misner's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredje View Post
I bet you are ! But it's 3 to 4 times my budget.

. . .

Does that do what your external DSP does ? Nice specs indeed, but still twice my budget.

Am I unreasonable to hope for a solution < $1000 ?
just remember, you did post this question in the High End forum. Personally, I take it on faith that engineers here will tell me what they think is the absolute best and it will be up to me to decide how much my budget can withstand.
Old 1 week ago
  #13
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaine Misner View Post
just remember, you did post this question in the High End forum. Personally, I take it on faith that engineers here will tell me what they think is the absolute best and it will be up to me to decide how much my budget can withstand.
I know. Maybe I was overreaching.
But I wanted opinions rather too severe than too forgiving.
Old 1 week ago
  #14
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrc View Post
Also, sealed enclosures have the advantage of a better phase response. That s why many manufacturers of ported subs don t even publish the phase response graph.
If the port is on the rear, and firing directly into a bass trap (say 1' from it), does that make it better ?
Old 1 week ago
  #15
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredje View Post
If the port is on the rear, and firing directly into a bass trap (say 1' from it), does that make it better ?
put your sub to fire sideways and bring the speaker cone as close as possible to the front wall if it needs to be there for some reason - mostly better: put it in the corner for maximum loading...
Old 1 week ago
  #16
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
put your sub to fire sideways and bring the speaker cone as close as possible to the front wall if it needs to be there for some reason - mostly better: put it in the corner for maximum loading...
I can certainly do that !

I suppose it was naive of me to think: make the membrane face me, at the same distance from me ears than the pair, in order to get phase consistency ?
Old 1 week ago
  #17
mrc
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredje View Post
If the port is on the rear, and firing directly into a bass trap (say 1' from it), does that make it better ?
This doesn t adress the issue i was talking about. Phase response might be altered by room acoustics, but a sealed enclosure will have less phase shift (read delay) at the lowest octaves.

Here is an interesting article on the subject:

https://www.resolutionmag.com/wp-con...ncy-debate.pdf

Since not all rooms behave in similar ways, I think you should do some listening tests and measurements to determine the best position.
Old 1 week ago
  #18
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredje View Post
...I suppose it was naive of me to think: make the membrane face me, at the same distance from me ears than the pair, in order to get phase consistency ?
with sub/s close to walls, you need to consider what happens regarding the phase when sound from a sub gets reflected from the walls and combines with the direct sound/what time it takes for the sound at a specific frequency to travel to the wall and back: if a front firing sub's woofer is at the quarter of the distance of a wavelength from a wall, reflected sound will be 180 degrees off when combining with the direct sound (at half the distance), so you'll get maximum cancellation - which is possibly not what you want!

things get tricky when using asymmetrical x-overs between subs and mains/tops and when several subwoofers are involved (although this can yield better results). in all but very large rooms, you cannot deal with just the sub/s and forget about the room: they do interact - a lot!

(entirely different story in very large rooms/outdoors: setting up/positioning of sub/s at the same distance form the audience as the tops/mains in live sound/without walls anywhere close is a good starting point. distance/delay/phase adjustment then is used to steer lf and to get rear cancellation from sub arrays, but you'll run into another topic: you can only ever align subs to mains to combine at one distance/for one frequency...)
Old 1 week ago
  #19
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrc View Post
This doesn t adress the issue i was talking about. Phase response might be altered by room acoustics, but a sealed enclosure will have less phase shift (read delay) at the lowest octaves.

Here is an interesting article on the subject:

https://www.resolutionmag.com/wp-con...ncy-debate.pdf

Since not all rooms behave in similar ways, I think you should do some listening tests and measurements to determine the best position.
Thanks for the article. It is very clear.

Yes I suppose there's no way around fiddling with positioning, according to room response.
Old 1 week ago
  #20
Lives for gear
 

Any affordable but reliable subwoofer alternative for Amphion one 18 or 15 ?

Sergio
Old 1 week ago
  #21
Gear Head
 

Ok, after having read the article posted by @mrc , I think I will go for the KRK 12S2 instead of the Banana Monkey Turbo 10s. It's a little bit more expensive and doesn't get as low (26Hz instead of 20Hz), but the larger cone and much larger baffle mean higher efficiency and less distortion if I understand the article right. It should still get about half an octave lower than my monitors, and as it boasts 119dB SPL at 1m (and even though I might have to place it 3m away -my room is 6m wide-, the distance-related drop in volume should be compensated by corner reflections), I expect it to be loud enough at least.

[EDIT: oops, seems the KRK's specs were wrong on the dealer's site I was getting me infos from: it doesn't get lower than 31Hz. Ok, so I guess I'm not done looking around...]

So, yeah, maybe "high end" wasn't the right forum for this. But I appreciate the technical finicking and the linked articles, which are what I came here for. So, thanks !
Old 5 days ago
  #22
Gear Head
 

Finally, I've made my choice: it will be an SVS SB-2000, with a dBx 233Xs xover.

Thank you all for your patience and good advices.
Old 5 days ago
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sergioelectro View Post
Any affordable but reliable subwoofer alternative for Amphion one 18 or 15 ?

Sergio
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