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Flock Audio PATCH
Old 4th April 2019
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
Hey Darren, have you thought about making a hardware remote touch screen box for it?
I think an iPad app is on the cards.
Old 4th April 2019
  #62
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bzone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
Hey Darren, have you thought about making a hardware remote touch screen box for it?
Hey Doc,
I just sold my Slate control while I wait for the new larger ones to come in, so I can’t test it at this moment. But if i’m Correct and from what I think remembering, I used the touch screen to drop some connections in and controlled the inputs on the front as well. Could be wrong but I think as I was on screen with the Flock app up floating on top, I just moved things in with my finger.
Old 4th April 2019
  #63
202
Here for the gear
 

Thanks for the review, exactly (on a more humble level) what i was looking at this unit for. When that stereo functionality comes to the app that's ultra useful, again sadly the license and net issue is no go , really if you're buying this hardware do they need to license the app? It also raises an issue what happens if you want to sell or pass on the unit - does that mean the app is not available to 2nd hand user purchasers?
Old 4th April 2019
  #64
Gear Head
It looks like they’ll be offering a net and no net version net update in the near future - so that’s great! Also v1.0 has 2 installer versions offering the same.

I saw on the site in my user area that you can easily transfer ownership to another user by plugging in their email. Seems to be the same as how UA does it.
Old 4th April 2019
  #65
202
Here for the gear
 

thanks again Neil for the info, i'm sure they are sending you a free second unit for all the fine work you've done! Seriously, does look a great unit so lets hope the company sorts these little problems and thrives with a bigger product range in future, good little niche ...

btw Flock please email news of your software updates to people on your general list (i know i've been on there from early on )to keep us informed of these important updates , certainly will help us make decisions on purchase when we see the great new features as promised
Old 4th April 2019
  #66
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dbjp's Avatar
 

I have to say, Flock’s response to users/potential users was great, and it makes me want to support this company in the future. I love these small-ish operations that actually listen. Kudos!
Old 4th April 2019
  #67
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Silvertone's Avatar
I’ve asked before and can’t get an answer... how is the “patch” between signals made? Can’t be switching relays (you’d hear them clicking), can’t be physical (no cords necessary), can’t be digital (would need conversion).

So again I ask. How is the patch between components made? Without degrading or altering the signal?
Old 4th April 2019
  #68
Quote:
Originally Posted by bzone View Post
Hey Doc,
I just sold my Slate control while I wait for the new larger ones to come in, so I can’t test it at this moment. But if i’m Correct and from what I think remembering, I used the touch screen to drop some connections in and controlled the inputs on the front as well. Could be wrong but I think as I was on screen with the Flock app up floating on top, I just moved things in with my finger.
That's pretty cool, as well as the thought of possible Ipad control, yet..in my mind, I was thinking about a dedicated Flock Audio product, that could be a remote type box, with a nice desktop style case [big enough screen, but not too big] with a few rotary encoders, its own brain, to store things into, [or on a USB flash drive, etc] with a interconnect cable to the Patch box. Of course, it should be able to link several of them, as the App does. Just a thought...
Old 4th April 2019
  #69
Gear Addict
 
bzone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
I’ve asked before and can’t get an answer... how is the “patch” between signals made? Can’t be switching relays (you’d hear them clicking), can’t be physical (no cords necessary), can’t be digital (would need conversion).

So again I ask. How is the patch between components made? Without degrading or altering the signal?
That’s a really good question. Did not think of opening it up. As I compare it to an X-patch and Dangerous Liason, which I have and use, and never opened up. It’s quiet. Even when passing high levels through it, switching in and out, as tested.
Old 4th April 2019
  #70
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Squawk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bzone View Post
That’s a really good question. Did not think of opening it up. As I compare it to an X-patch and Dangerous Liason, which I have and use, and never opened up. It’s quiet. Even when passing high levels through it, switching in and out, as tested.
Right. The X-Patch, and also the CM Labs Sixty-Four (the granddaddy of this technology). I would assume that they all use a similar approach to switching.
Old 4th April 2019
  #71
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To my mind any form of online license checking (even every 30 days or so) is not acceptable for this type of product. Any internet issues, which I get all too frequently, could mean your whole studio is inoperable! Also, what if the company folds etc.

I’ve been waiting to see some proper specs before I buy, but until I see that the online requirement is completely removed I’m not interested.
Old 4th April 2019
  #72
Lives for gear
lol - welcome to 2019 - an Internet-authenticated patchbay
@ Silvertone - Regards switching method, I assume that the switching is done using those Analog Devices 32-squared analogue cross point chips - switched relays on this scale would be bulky, audible as you say and also expensive; there’s a reason the old broadcast-paradigm GV, Quartz and similar analogue routers are so large...

Pure conjecture on my part but that is how I assume 32 squared is able to fit into 1ru...crosstalk specs on those range from acceptable to potentially a bit rough as they scale up.
@ FlockAudio - would love to know the truth rather than my likely wildly incorrect assumption
Old 4th April 2019
  #73
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Silvertone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco Cubist View Post
lol - welcome to 2019 - an Internet-authenticated patchbay
@ Silvertone - Regards switching method, I assume that the switching is done using those Analog Devices 32-squared analogue cross point chips - switched relays on this scale would be bulky, audible as you say and also expensive; there’s a reason the old broadcast-paradigm GV, Quartz and similar analogue routers are so large...

Pure conjecture on my part but that is how I assume 32 squared is able to fit into 1ru...crosstalk specs on those range from acceptable to potentially a bit rough as they scale up.
@ FlockAudio - would love to know the truth rather than my likely wildly incorrect assumption
lol
Old 9th April 2019
  #74
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr XY View Post
To my mind any form of online license checking (even every 30 days or so) is not acceptable for this type of product. Any internet issues, which I get all too frequently, could mean your whole studio is inoperable! Also, what if the company folds etc.
Agreed. This isn't a plugin, it's a piece of professional hardware. It should have 100% functionality forever in isolation from the net.
Old 9th April 2019
  #75
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Squawk's Avatar
Well, looks like there’s some healthy competition now. I’ve got a Patch ordered, but 32x32 definitely is a compromise for my needs...
Old 12th April 2019
  #76
Gear Addict
 

I would love to get one of these but, like most on GS, care deeply about signal quality much more than convenience.

Now, if we can have both, I’m in but, not getting an answer is valid cause to hesitate.

Love hearing from GS members that it sounds great, just need to understand the engineering/decisions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
I’ve asked before and can’t get an answer... how is the “patch” between signals made? Can’t be switching relays (you’d hear them clicking), can’t be physical (no cords necessary), can’t be digital (would need conversion).

So again I ask. How is the patch between components made? Without degrading or altering the signal?
Old 12th April 2019
  #77
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Squawk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLMorgan View Post
I would love to get one of these but, like most on GS, care deeply about signal quality much more than convenience.

Now, if we can have both, I’m in but, not getting an answer is valid cause to hesitate.

Love hearing from GS members that it sounds great, just need to understand the engineering/decisions.
Well, considering that the (much older) X-Patch (SSL) and CM Sixty-Four had no discernible degradation in sound, I wouldn't be too worried, not to dismiss your concerns of course. As long as the connectors and components are of high quality and it's done correctly, it shouldn't be different than a standard good quality analog patch bay, but I'm sure you'll get more details and specs soon on that from Flock

Last edited by Squawk; 12th April 2019 at 02:49 AM..
Old 12th April 2019
  #78
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bzone's Avatar
 

As I look on the Dangerous site, it gives specs. For the Liason. The SSL X-Patch, I can not locate any specs. And for the Flock Audio Patch, I can not find any either. Perhaps they can post some. However, as I use all three from a listening and level standpoint there seams to be no degradation of signal. Could get into some exact testing if anything sounds wrong.
Old 16th April 2019
  #79
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mrcross's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
I’ve asked before and can’t get an answer... how is the “patch” between signals made? Can’t be switching relays (you’d hear them clicking), can’t be physical (no cords necessary), can’t be digital (would need conversion).

So again I ask. How is the patch between components made? Without degrading or altering the signal?
You did the Sherlock Homes thing yourself already, you eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. The truth in this case being semi conduction. If you have any objections against that then I am wondering what your setup is, you either have +1% metal THD or did well with bitcoins having Jensen's all over the place. In either case your THD is massively beyond what today's semi conduction has to offer.

Not supplying specs is a business strategy that works out really well for a lot of the top end stuff. You either spec or wait for the top layer to validate it. In either case it will work out if the product delivers. There is reviews over here loud and clearly reporting that there is no degradation or altering, so what are you waiting for? Today's semi conduction has THD that is scientifically impossible to hear but a lot think that they have super human capabilities. Why is that? To me it is a flat earth discussion, please allow me to have an opinion and don't shoot the messenger. I will not discuss this any further, you are informed hereby.

If you want auto patching then buy the damn thing if you can afford it and don't look back. Your monitor, shape of your studio, your position in it, angle of your head and wall materials is what really defines "transparency" more than anything else.
Old 16th April 2019
  #80
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Silvertone's Avatar
In close to 50 years I’ve never bought a piece of any equipment, not just audio with reading and knowing the specs.

Well, I didn’t Sherlock Holmes anything. I simply asked the question (2 times) for how the actual patch is made. If a company selling a patch bay system won’t release the simplest of answers then I will not buy their equipment. Plain and simple... and my choice.

I’m the only professional to validate what I will use. I only trust my ears.

It will be a long time before the professionals I know will validate this equipment because they are not buying it for the same reason. If you think I’m the only one I can point you to a forum of top engineers and producers who are asking the same questions.

Not publishing specs on audio gear usually means there something in there that other professionals in the field will question. I shy away from companies like this myself. So do most of my colleagues.

Yes, I use mainly tube equipment from the 50 and 60’s now, a lot of iron. For monitoring I use a lot of Dangerous equipment, which means a lot of relays. I monitor on a system that reprocuces 16Hz to 22kHz, so I’m able to hear everything. I’ll take straight wire over multiple patches any day of the week.

Now I understand what you are saying. Everybody loves Neve gear, there are at least 5 different points where the signal is compromised ina 1073 module (I know this from the published specs), yet its the end result that counts. I understand that philosophy. That said I sold my Neve console cause overtime I heard the build up of that sound over multiple channels. I call it a mid, mud bloom... It can fight you at mix time. I choose equipment with a natural sound. So what does that mean? It sounds like the source I’m recording and doesn’t alter it in much of anyway. Just my way of working.

It looks like you manufacture something similar to the Flock Audio Patch, so I take it you use semi conduction? If so, in the past I’ve always heard a very transistorized sound with semi conductors. My Trident 24 sound zizzy compared to my Trident 80B and Neve BCM10 sidecar. Actually my Quad Eight console had a bit of that sound as well compared to my Electrodyne. I attitubuted that to the chips they used in the Q8 Pacifica design. My Langevin tube console is point to point wiring with a few Stancor x-formers in there as well. It’s the best sounding console I’ve ever owned. Would the specs for that be beat today? Sure would.

I need to see and read specs, there is a legitimacy with that. Mostly I need to trust my ears... last, I need transparency from any company I’m dealing with... but that’s probably just me.

I hope you guys do well and sell a bunch of these systems. Someday I’m sure I’ll hear one.

For me, for now, like all my life, I’ll get my arse out of the chair and manually make the patch. I need the exercise anyway. lol

Good luck.




Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcross View Post
You did the Sherlock Homes thing yourself already, you eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. The truth in this case being semi conduction. If you have any objections against that then I am wondering what your setup is, you either have +1% metal THD or did well with bitcoins having Jensen's all over the place. In either case your THD is massively beyond what today's semi conduction has to offer.

Not supplying specs is a business strategy that works out really well for a lot of the top end stuff. You either spec or wait for the top layer to validate it. In either case it will work out if the product delivers. There is reviews over here loud and clearly reporting that there is no degradation or altering, so what are you waiting for? Today's semi conduction has THD that is scientifically impossible to hear but a lot think that they have super human capabilities. Why is that? To me it is a flat earth discussion, please allow me to have an opinion and don't shoot the messenger. I will not discuss this any further, you are informed hereby.

If you want auto patching then buy the damn thing if you can afford it and don't look back. Your monitor, shape of your studio, your position in it, angle of your head and wall materials is what really defines "transparency" more than anything else.
Old 16th April 2019
  #81
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Silvertone's Avatar
In my long post I said it... and have said it before...

Everyone likes the Neve 10XX Sound and there are at least 5 points in the design that compromise the signal. So to a degree a signal doesn’t have to be pristine to be loved and used. The fact I know this may be why I choose to use a Neve preamp on certain sources... but again, that’s just me.

When it come to wire and patching I need to know what’s going on... but again, that’s probably just me.

Have fun everyone!
Old 16th April 2019
  #82
Gear Addict
 

To mrcross credit, on his XBay thread, he described his positions well on 1) the differences/complementary aspect of Flock and his XBay and 2) his investment in an independent AP test he makes available on request along with his reasoning for providing the test.

I have not requested the XBay test, as I believe Flock's "unlimited native buffered multing" would indeed be more useful for my needs but, if it provides meaningful test documentation, I applaud the approach.

While I don't want to fault Flock, for those with true interest in the product, open, objective communication with these potential customers, either through this forum or privately, seems wise.

From the XBay thread:

"thnx, well I sincerely hope the Flock lives up to your expectations cause we would not want auto patching to have a bad reputation for whatever reason. Just as there is not only one smart phone that fits all, there is room for more than one party in this market. For now I see it like this, if you need more IO there is XBay and if you need unlimited native buffered multing and phantom there is Flock (well Patch actually but whatever). They can complement each other nicely, especially as Flock being a submatrix of a bigger XBay, in that case no broken matrix and the best of both.

please drop me a mail at [email protected] and I send you the independent AP test report. Please find out yourself how it compares to other solutions and decide if it is acceptable or not for yourself. If it ain't then there is nothing I can do about it and you should not invest in it. I made it as good as it can possibly get with the components used. I don't have an opinion myself cause I am not a pro-ducer or blessed with superhuman hearing capabilities. I am in doubt if I should press the submit button because I realize this sounds kind of defensive and you are not attacking me at all, but I have been so a lot regarding this in the past, to the point of serious attempts to cause psychological damage and destroying my reputation. I am somewhat sensitive about it therefore. Sticking my neck out to be as open about as I can, invested in the independent test therefore so that you exactly know what you are going to get scientifically wise. I trust on the fact that y'all can appreciate that

btw over here it has been decent and respectful, thanks"
Old 16th April 2019
  #83
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mirochandler's Avatar
I got specs from them per email:

EDIT:
I deleted the information because of superhero vendor and GS user: mrcross
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcross View Post
Ironically I never owned a manual patchbay cause ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcross View Post
Disclaimer : I cannot distinguish MP3 from WAV, ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcross View Post
I knew of the xpatch from ssl but this one not.
So he don´t know an old Signex Patchbay which is one of the forerunner in digital controlled routing...


Ask at Flock Audio about specs. They are friendly and the specs looks fine...
EDIT-End

That specs. looks very good in my world.
Maybe someone could make their own measurements with the RMAA freeware (PC).

But there are some things that keeps me away from a purchase at this time:
- it needs to be online
- no stereo handling (comes in the future is written in the manual)
- no bypassing with a singe mouse-click which is the most important point when it comes to a mastering setup (or have I understood it wrong in the manual?)

Last edited by mirochandler; 17th April 2019 at 08:18 AM.. Reason: mrcross
Old 16th April 2019
  #84
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Thank you for getting the specs. I questioned the input impedance and Flock got in touch right away with the info. FYI, you have the option to be offline. You have to create two separate paths for stereo, if your gear has a link mode on the front panel there you go. Again you need to set two separate paths, an input and output, one with your components in place and one without. One click, gear in, one click, gear out. Have a Liason for what you are talking about, I can see the ease of that system operation. What I’m considering myself in place of the Liason is the new Hermès by SPL.
Old 16th April 2019
  #85
Gear Nut
 
mrcross's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post

My Trident 24 sound zizzy compared to my Trident 80B and Neve BCM10 sideca
just when I thought I was out, they are pulling me back in. What I can say about that should also be available at my place. I double post it therefore cause I don't mean to steal thunder by redirecting. Also to promote and defend auto transistor based patching in general. If it is silent relays based after all then nevermind. That's metal but comes with it's own set of issues.

What you say makes perfect sense considering that transitors (semi conductors) got a bad rep cause they used to have a high flat TDH distriution over all harmonic orders making them sound "harsh", but the times are changing all the time. The THD got way lower and more important, the distribution is skewed downwards towards the higher orders. Anything below 0.1% (-60db, in % is for marketing purposes cause it is not logarithmic and therefore seems more impressive) for the 1st and lower higher orders is considered inaudible for the non super humans, those harsh days are over. Caveat left is the fact that going lower than -60db is not the holy grail and does most certainly not imply "better" for the ears, potentially to the contrary. Problem is that chip makers go blind on numbers and don't have a clue about practical end results. More in detail here for instance The THD Wars - why lower distortion often doesn't equal better sound quality. - Audiophile Addicts

In any case you are totally right, no other option than to hear it with your own ears, numbers are indicative only.

Disclaimer : I cannot distinguish MP3 from WAV, don't take my word for anything.

Please don't drag me in any further over here it is too tempting.
Old 17th April 2019
  #86
Gear Nut
 
mrcross's Avatar
 

...

Last edited by mrcross; 19th April 2019 at 02:27 AM.. Reason: you know
Old 17th April 2019
  #87
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Squawk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcross View Post
This is the high end section not a kindergarten, **** off with your RMAA suggestion and go play with yourself instead of with others hard earned cash. It's idiots like you that make vendor's hold back their specs. Thank me later when you realize I do this in your best interest.

seems rather uncalled for in any civilized discussion, no?

Anyway, I just picked up my Flock unit from my dealer. I’m looking forward to getting things hooked up and configuring all my routing options!
Old 17th April 2019
  #88
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dbjp's Avatar
 

Very cross, is our mrcross.
Old 17th April 2019
  #89
Lives for gear
Mrcross has been extremely helpful, transparent and generous in his communication to me. I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding going on here. He is actually more honest and forthcoming with information about his product that any manufacturer I have encountered. You just have to deal with him privately to get certain detailed info. He is selling a boutique custom product so that is fair enough. If u are serious about finding out more, contact him. He is extremely good at communicating anything U need.
Old 17th April 2019
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondog007 View Post
Mrcross has been extremely helpful, transparent and generous in his communication to me. I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding going on here. He is actually more honest and forthcoming with information about his product that any manufacturer I have encountered. You just have to deal with him privately to get certain detailed info. He is selling a boutique custom product so that is fair enough. If u are serious about finding out more, contact him. He is extremely good at communicating anything U need.
I'm sure he is very helpful, and clearly he is very passionate . However, going on a thread about a competing product and calling people "idiots", and telling them to "f*ck off" and to "go play with themselves", is just not really a good look. There's perhaps better ways to express one's opinion.

Kinda makes me glad I bought the Flock...
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