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PSI A17-M vs Neumann KH 310 Studio Monitors
Old 1st February 2019
  #1
Here for the gear
 

PSI A17-M vs Neumann KH 310

Hi Guys!

I found lot of post about Neumann kh 310 vs PSI a21 but PSI a21 are 2,490 eu for one speaker on Thomann and Neumann 310 str 1759 eu - seems unfair to compare.

I wonder how they compare to the PSI A17 - 1625 for one (almost the same price).

I have Neumann kh 120 (without the sub) - amazing speakers - I love them -(little difficult to sub and low end and they have little bit of bathtub low mids).

I want to upgrade.
Budget - around 3000 eu for both speakers. If you think there are better options then these two. Name them!
My room is 460cmx340cm and 260cm (height) - treated with bass traps and rockwool.

I heard that PSI a17 are the best at the price range now and much better than KH 120. I know that KH 310 are amazing aswell but people often claims that they are more clinical and not very good if your room is not big enough. I also considered kh 120 with sub but many people claims that sub in a small room is terrible choice.




Thank you very much.
Old 1st February 2019
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahdes View Post
Hi Guys!

I found lot of post about Neumann kh 310 vs PSI a21 but PSI a21 are 2,490 eu for one speaker on Thomann and Neumann 310 str 1759 eu - seems unfair to compare.

I wonder how they compare to the PSI A17 - 1625 for one (almost same price).

I have Neumann kh 120 (without the sub) - amazing speakers - I love them -(little difficult to sub and low end and they have little bit of bathtub low mids).

I want to upgrade. I heard that PSI a21 are the best at the price range now and much better than KH 120. I know that KH 310 are amazing aswell but people often claims that they are more clinical and not very good if your room is not big enough. I also considered kh 120 with sub but many people claims that sub in a small room is terrible choice.

My room is 460cmx340cm and 260cm (height) - treated with bass traps and rockwool.

Thank you very much.
I use 0300's in a room your size, I have it fully treated with GIK traps and the 0300's sound great.

As for clinical, 0300's have no sound of their own. Ruler flat doesn't mean clinical or boring it just means honest.

I find it a mix sounds boring on my 0300's it's because .... the mix is boring!

= if a mix sounds great on the 0300's then it's great mix. Seems like exactly what you want from monitors.

The excitement is added my the writer/performer/arranger/mixer not the monitors.
Old 1st February 2019
  #3
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dickiefunk's Avatar
I also have the Neumann KH120’s. I’ve considered upgrading mine and both the KH310’s and PSI A17’s were strong contenders. Also Unity Audios new Rock Mini and Rock mkIII’s look very appealing.
However, I ended up adding an Eve Audio sub and I’m really liking the flexibility of this setup.
Old 1st February 2019
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dickiefunk View Post
I also have the Neumann KH120’s. I’ve considered upgrading mine and both the KH310’s and PSI A17’s were strong contenders. Also Unity Audios new Rock Mini and Rock mkIII’s look very appealing.
However, I ended up adding an Eve Audio sub and I’m really liking the flexibility of this setup.
As long as you carefully integrate a sub (especially if it's a 3rd party unit) then they can work well.

Don't know if you've seen this - worth a read - Bob Katz on sub-woofers.

Subwoofers - Digido.com
Old 1st February 2019
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahdes View Post
Hi Guys!

I found lot of post about Neumann kh 310 vs PSI a21 but PSI a21 are 2,490 eu for one speaker on Thomann and Neumann 310 str 1759 eu - seems unfair to compare.

I wonder how they compare to the PSI A17 - 1625 for one (almost the same price).

I have Neumann kh 120 (without the sub) - amazing speakers - I love them -(little difficult to sub and low end and they have little bit of bathtub low mids).

I want to upgrade.
Budget - around 3000 eu for both speakers. If you think there are better options then these two. Name them!
My room is 460cmx340cm and 260cm (height) - treated with bass traps and rockwool.

I heard that PSI a17 are the best at the price range now and much better than KH 120. I know that KH 310 are amazing aswell but people often claims that they are more clinical and not very good if your room is not big enough. I also considered kh 120 with sub but many people claims that sub in a small room is terrible choice.




Thank you very much.

PSI crushes KH310 imo, but I'm biased as I picked the PSI myself.
Old 1st February 2019
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahdes View Post
Hi Guys!

I found lot of post about Neumann kh 310 vs PSI a21 but PSI a21 are 2,490 eu for one speaker on Thomann and Neumann 310 str 1759 eu - seems unfair to compare.

I wonder how they compare to the PSI A17 - 1625 for one (almost the same price).

I have Neumann kh 120 (without the sub) - amazing speakers - I love them -(little difficult to sub and low end and they have little bit of bathtub low mids).

I want to upgrade.
Budget - around 3000 eu for both speakers. If you think there are better options then these two. Name them!
My room is 460cmx340cm and 260cm (height) - treated with bass traps and rockwool.

I heard that PSI a17 are the best at the price range now and much better than KH 120. I know that KH 310 are amazing aswell but people often claims that they are more clinical and not very good if your room is not big enough. I also considered kh 120 with sub but many people claims that sub in a small room is terrible choice.




Thank you very much.
Neither. Consider HEDD 20s, it's the new sheriff in town (for that kind of budget).

Above your budget there are the ATC 20s, wonderful in so many respects(but will not pack enough juice under 50Hz). ATC are the RollsRoyce in monitoring, so, if you can make an effort I'd suggest this route with all my heart. But again, HEDD 20s are IT for around 3400 euro.
Old 2nd February 2019
  #7
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Doc No's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatsNo View Post
PSI crushes KH310 imo, but I'm biased as I picked the PSI myself.
I had them side by side. Obviously you did something wrong. I tend to say the KH310 are less euphemistic and more revealing. The transients on the PSIs are slightly better defined.
Old 2nd February 2019
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc No View Post
I had them side by side. Obviously you did something wrong. I tend to say the KH310 are less euphemistic and more revealing. The transients on the PSIs are slightly better defined.
I didn't do anything wrong just because you disagree. If you work better on Neumann than PSI, then use that. It's really not fair to compare these though, as the a17 is a smaller monitor for a higher price.

For me PSI sounds real, KH310 sounds like a good speaker.
Old 2nd February 2019
  #9
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Doc No's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatsNo View Post
It's really not fair to compare these though, as the a17 is a smaller monitor for a higher price.


Ah, the first gearslutz-commandment: "If it is more expensive, it is better!"

So price is your measurement?
Old 3rd February 2019
  #10
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahdes View Post
Hi Guys!

I found lot of post about Neumann kh 310 vs PSI a21 but PSI a21 are 2,490 eu for one speaker on Thomann and Neumann 310 str 1759 eu - seems unfair to compare.

I wonder how they compare to the PSI A17 - 1625 for one (almost the same price).

I have Neumann kh 120 (without the sub) - amazing speakers - I love them -(little difficult to sub and low end and they have little bit of bathtub low mids).

I want to upgrade.
Budget - around 3000 eu for both speakers. If you think there are better options then these two. Name them!
My room is 460cmx340cm and 260cm (height) - treated with bass traps and rockwool.

I heard that PSI a17 are the best at the price range now and much better than KH 120. I know that KH 310 are amazing aswell but people often claims that they are more clinical and not very good if your room is not big enough. I also considered kh 120 with sub but many people claims that sub in a small room is terrible choice.




Thank you very much.
hello,

There is a time where 1 FCH = 1 Euro and a psi A21 was sold a the same price than a O300.

the exchange rate is not a criterion for improvement so the comparison between speaker is based on the performances and not by the price !!
Old 3rd February 2019
  #11
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MarcB's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
hello,

There is a time where 1 FCH = 1 Euro and a psi A21 was sold a the same price than a O300.

the exchange rate is not a criterion for improvement so the comparison between speaker is based on the performances and not by the price !!
Yeah , the price of PSI monitors has risen quite a fair bit over the years.

These are over 5000 euro each now. (red ones cost less)
Attached Thumbnails
PSI A17-M vs Neumann KH 310-psi.jpg  

Last edited by MarcB; 4th February 2019 at 08:01 PM..
Old 3rd February 2019
  #12
Lives for gear
The k+h o410 had the same price the a25 before the end of parity eur / fch . Now with thomman the kh420 cost 3600 eur and the a25 cost 4500 eur.


Folks have not the reflex to see the variation of currency. It's a money trap and the business know well how use it. The increase is quick and the decrease is too long or never come.
Old 4th February 2019
  #13
Of course price don't always scale with performance, but his choice of monitors 310 and A17 is because of price, they are similarily priced.
If he didn't factor in the price he would compare KH310 to ATC25 and PSI A23, but those are both much more expensive.

The KH120 which he already has is more of the direct competition for the A17.
So if he wants a bigger 120 with more bass extension, then go with KH310..

They are all good speakers, but I would be surprised if he demoed them all and didn't pick the PSI
Old 4th February 2019
  #14
Gear Addict
 

If you demo them all you'll pick the PSI. It's pretty awesome. Dead accurate but musical. The A17's are brilliant. I would say a cut above the KH120. The 300 isn't really comparable though. It's a much bigger speaker and a three way. I wouldn't consider the Hedd 20. Not in the same league at all. I had A17s and Kh120s. Both in full range configuration (with respective subs). A17 all the way. Depending on what kind of music you make though this may or may not be an option for you. If you need low end the A17s won't be enough by themselves. Unfortunately I think your room is small lengthwise. This might be a limiting factor. How low do you need to go?

If the answer is far below 40hz there might not be a solution. Although one thing comes to mind and that's the Geithain cardiod bass response series. I'd look there because I think that might actually help you. Saying that your room is almost 5 meters so the situation is not terrible.
Old 4th February 2019
  #15
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javahut's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf View Post
...I wouldn't consider the Hedd 20. Not in the same league at all.
And you know this how?
Old 4th February 2019
  #16
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by javahut View Post
And you know this how?
I heard them how else? I dont' even want to discuss them in the same sentence as the PSI. If you haven't experienced PSI, well there is nothing I can say that will convey what I mean. You need a frame of reference and the only way you'll get that is to hear them side by side. PSI outclass them in every area and it's not just the sound, which is, well amazing, but build quality also (reflected in the lengthy warranty). Really do yourself a favour and demo them. It's the only way really.
Old 4th February 2019
  #17
Lives for gear
On audiofanzine, there are a guy who sell a studer a3 at the price of a A21: 4000 euro.

I will sell a pair of kef c20 at 4001 euro.
Old 4th February 2019
  #18
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MarcB's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf View Post
but build quality also (reflected in the lengthy warranty).
Nothing a bit of glue didn't fix , but still...



My JBL LSR 3625P sound pretty much the same voicing as my A25-m when I alter the dip switches to cut @ 100hz for the wall reinforcement and raise the treble by 2db. So much that when I listen to none-bass heavy tracks I sometimes don't know what speakers I'm listening to without looking at the monitor controller illuminated buttons.

I could happily swap out and not miss much with the LSRs and a pair of well placed subs if ear shattering volume isn't required.

Last edited by MarcB; 4th February 2019 at 08:21 PM..
Old 4th February 2019
  #19
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Doc No's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcB View Post


;-)


Old 4th February 2019
  #20
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf View Post
If you demo them all you'll pick the PSI. It's pretty awesome. Dead accurate but musical. The A17's are brilliant. I would say a cut above the KH120. The 300 isn't really comparable though. It's a much bigger speaker and a three way. I wouldn't consider the Hedd 20. Not in the same league at all. I had A17s and Kh120s. Both in full range configuration (with respective subs). A17 all the way. Depending on what kind of music you make though this may or may not be an option for you. If you need low end the A17s won't be enough by themselves. Unfortunately I think your room is small lengthwise. This might be a limiting factor. How low do you need to go?

If the answer is far below 40hz there might not be a solution. Although one thing comes to mind and that's the Geithain cardiod bass response series. I'd look there because I think that might actually help you. Saying that your room is almost 5 meters so the situation is not terrible.
Thank you ! I'm prog rock/metal guy. I'm not considering to buy either of those speakers with sub (no budget). Do you think a17 are useless without sub in the low end?(KH 120 sounds bit boxy without sub) I know KH 310 should have enough low end on it's own, but I dont know if they have same amount of clarity and mid range information as A17.
Old 4th February 2019
  #21
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatsNo View Post
Of course price don't always scale with performance, but his choice of monitors 310 and A17 is because of price, they are similarily priced.
If he didn't factor in the price he would compare KH310 to ATC25 and PSI A23, but those are both much more expensive.

The KH120 which he already has is more of the direct competition for the A17.
So if he wants a bigger 120 with more bass extension, then go with KH310..

They are all good speakers, but I would be surprised if he demoed them all and didn't pick the PSI
Thank you !
and do you think A17 has enough low end without sub? I know KH 310 should be pretty flat at full range, but many people claims that mid range clarity on A17 is better- I'm mixing prog rock/metal stuff.
Old 4th February 2019
  #22
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Doc No's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahdes View Post
Thank you !
and do you think A17 has enough low end without sub? I know KH 310 should be pretty flat at full range, but many people claims that mid range clarity on A17 is better- I'm mixing prog rock/metal stuff.
Don't listen to opinions on gearslutz. Demo the monitors at your place. Different ears, different hears!
Old 5th February 2019
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc No View Post
Don't listen to opinions on gearslutz. Demo the monitors at your place. Different ears, different hears!
Thanks to those opinions I ended up with trully wonderful monitors a few years ago. I couldn't demo on my place, which I obviously encourage people to do, but by simply sharing their experience I was able to figure out what would work for me. Your advice is absolutely terrible, we all are in this place for opinions.
Old 5th February 2019
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahdes View Post
Thank you ! I'm prog rock/metal guy. I'm not considering to buy either of those speakers with sub (no budget). Do you think a17 are useless without sub in the low end?(KH 120 sounds bit boxy without sub) I know KH 310 should have enough low end on it's own, but I dont know if they have same amount of clarity and mid range information as A17.
Ah ok. In that case you really shouldn't need anything below 40hz. I think in rock/metal tracks are mastered with nothing below 40 (high passed or EQd or whatever they do). The KH 120's are smaller. The driver is 5.25" and they'll go down to 52hz. Comparatively, the A17s will go down to 40hz (43hz quoted). The driver is about 6.7" I think. It's a much bigger speaker in that sense and yeah given that you're a prog rock guy the A17 will be just fine in terms of range.

Another great choice might be Geithain 904s. Very powerful and perfect phase response because of the point source driver arrangement. They are almost twice the weight of the A17s though so quite a bit bigger (16kg per speaker vs about 8 for the A17s). But you'll get more of everything with that. More power, more range, more level etc etc. Geithain also make amazing stuff. It's actually the only vendor I'd pick over PSI. The 904s are big enough to be a midrange I think but you can comfortably use them in nearfield situations.

I found this video while digging around for some PSI stuff:
YouTube
Old 6th February 2019
  #25
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Arksun's Avatar
All the PSI family share very similar sound, but I would say the difference between the A17 and A21 isn't just bass extension, the A21 just sounded like a slightly better more natural monitor all-round with a better sounding crossover point. In fact you really dont notice the crossover on the A21s, if anything its one of the strongest parts of its frequency range, the two drivers are just so well balanced.

When I was buying mine I just couldn't afford the A21's at all and was dead set on the A17's, but when I auditioned the A21's right after the A17's... well..... it was byebye bank account
Old 6th February 2019
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun View Post
All the PSI family share very similar sound, but I would say the difference between the A17 and A21 isn't just bass extension, the A21 just sounded like a slightly better more natural monitor all-round with a better sounding crossover point. In fact you really dont notice the crossover on the A21s, if anything its one of the strongest parts of its frequency range, the two drivers are just so well balanced.

When I was buying mine I just couldn't afford the A21's at all and was dead set on the A17's, but when I auditioned the A21's right after the A17's... well..... it was byebye bank account
I think it is understandable that they sounds that better. They cost cca €2 500 for one speaker and A17 is cca €1 500 on thomann.
€5000 is tooooo much for me. No matter how I would love to have those - it is too much. I'm pretty sure that A17 or Neumann KH 310 are great enough for making great sounding music and it will be great step from neumann 120 without sub.
Old 6th February 2019
  #27
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A two-way has always a little failure in the mid when the speaker can reproduce the bass with the production of Intermodulation distortion.
Except the ns10 which are no bass.

You want clarity in the mid : the ns10 or a three way.
Old 6th February 2019
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahdes View Post
I think it is understandable that they sounds that better. They cost cca €2 500 for one speaker and A17 is cca €1 500 on thomann.
€5000 is tooooo much for me. No matter how I would love to have those - it is too much. I'm pretty sure that A17 or Neumann KH 310 are great enough for making great sounding music and it will be great step from neumann 120 without sub.
You will be sure when you will listen side by side in your room.
Old 6th February 2019
  #29
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Jantex's Avatar
 

Really, don't take price into consideraition. PSI are great speakers and so are Neumann (K&H). It is not that one company makes better speakers, it is that both follow their vision of what a good speaker should be like and which goals they are following. Usually it is always a trade-off with speaker design.

If you want lower extension and SPL from same enclosure and power, time domain response will suffer. If you want good time domain performance in a given enclosure with particular driver size, you will sacrifice SPL and increase distortion....there ain't no free lunch.

Moving from KH120 to A17 makes no sense, it is more of a sidestep than real upgrade. Be aware, Switzerland is probably the most expensive country in the world and salaries are high there, so production costs are much much bigger. Besides Neumann is much larger company and can take advantage of the economy of scale with more units produced.

Choosing between A17 and KH310, I would opt for KH310 any day. A21 for KH310 it would be a more comparison and still I would be slightly undecided but would probably opt for KH310. Now that A23 will be released, that will be a better competitor to KH310, although I imagine it will be much much more expensive.

Look at ATC. They have good but crazy expensive products. SCM25 is much much more expensive than KH310, but I prefer KH310 actually. On the other hand, I would take SCM20s over KH310 to be honest, but would need a subwoofer to approach them in the low end department. I have owned KH310 and still think they are one of the best if not the best value/money speakers - and even objectively measured, they perform flawlessly....are flat and natural, sealed cabinet, deep and tight bass and very non-fatiguing.
Old 6th February 2019
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahdes View Post
Thank you !
and do you think A17 has enough low end without sub? I know KH 310 should be pretty flat at full range, but many people claims that mid range clarity on A17 is better- I'm mixing prog rock/metal stuff.

A17's go surprisingly deep, but I would say that they are useful down to about 40hz for me. You need to decide if you need the 20-40hz. As others are saying here the 310 is good, for me the PSI just sounds more real.
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