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Electricity and power conditioners etc... Boring stuff!
Old 23rd February 2019
  #61
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMac View Post
Do you think something like this is necessary?
Where is spec number that says how many joules it will block or absorb? Scams are promoted by avoiding spec numbers. Specification numbers are the only place where they cannot lie. So numbers get forgotten. Then naive consumers will recommend it.

Subjective claims make best lies because their target market only believes the subjective.

How many joules does it claim to 'block' or 'absorb'? Surges that are hundred or thousand joules are made irrelevant by what is already inside appliances. Effective protectors always answer this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? How many joules?
Old 25th February 2019
  #62
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PaulMac's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
Where is spec number that says how many joules it will block or absorb? Scams are promoted by avoiding spec numbers. Specification numbers are the only place where they cannot lie. So numbers get forgotten. Then naive consumers will recommend it.

Subjective claims make best lies because their target market only believes the subjective.

How many joules does it claim to 'block' or 'absorb'? Surges that are hundred or thousand joules are made irrelevant by what is already inside appliances. Effective protectors always answer this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? How many joules?

Point taken. I'm looking for a solution and essentially a way to test the problem though, because there is definitely a problem.
What would be ideal "specs"? Or are you refuting any claims that voltage regulation units or isolation transformers could do anything helpful whatsoever?
Old 25th February 2019
  #63
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Torus is legit. Bryston also sells a few of those models under their name. Their measurements are listed on Torus' website, including technical papers that may be of some help: Technical White Papers

This is from the Bryston webpage: "Meets IEEE c62.41-1991 and is built to withstand 6000 Volts, 3000 Amps for 1000 repeats"...I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for?

Contact them directly if you have any questions. They're quick and very helpful. I know from talking to people that Torus has protected their gear quite well during thunderstorms where everything not plugged into the Torus was gone. They also sell units with AVR if voltage is a problem.
Old 25th February 2019
  #64
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Just remember that protection spikes and brown outs, and the potential effect on noise and sound quality are all unrelated issues.
Old 25th February 2019
  #65
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PaulMac's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoom25 View Post
Torus is legit. Bryston also sells a few of those models under their name. Their measurements are listed on Torus' website, including technical papers that may be of some help: Technical White Papers

This is from the Bryston webpage: "Meets IEEE c62.41-1991 and is built to withstand 6000 Volts, 3000 Amps for 1000 repeats"...I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for?

Contact them directly if you have any questions. They're quick and very helpful. I know from talking to people that Torus has protected their gear quite well during thunderstorms where everything not plugged into the Torus was gone. They also sell units with AVR if voltage is a problem.
I was looking into the Torus units and they seem ideal other than the price!
It could be worth it though.

What unit do you use?
Old 25th February 2019
  #66
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMac View Post
I was looking into the Torus units and they seem ideal other than the price!
It could be worth it though.

What unit do you use?
Yes, they can be expensive, but they do all the right things. Unlike a lot of conditioners which can mess with power and transient draw, the Torus don't have that problem. These have big toroids and are very heavy. The Torus I have on a 15A circuit can provide 75A for 10 seconds, 150A for 1 second, and 300A for 1/2 cycle.

I have a 15A version for my nearfield Amphion setup. It's not a power hungry setup. For my bigger rigs, I'd have gone with the 20A version or perhaps even higher. Their 20A is the one that sells the most. I got my 15A model used so I didn't have to risk losing any money if I didn't like it.
Old 25th February 2019
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Just remember that protection spikes and brown outs, and the potential effect on noise and sound quality are all unrelated issues.
Totally. I don't have concerns about noise. Just "sound quality"!
Old 25th February 2019
  #68
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMac View Post
I'm looking for a solution and essentially a way to test the problem though, because there is definitely a problem.
Solutions always start by first identifying the problem - and doing nothing (yet) to solve it. For example, if a household door is sticking, then does someone plane down that door? Of course not. First the reason for that defect is located. Fixing it (rebuilding a foundation, replacing a cracked joist, etc) only happens after the defect is located.

Same applies to all electronics. Foundation of every electronic device is its power system. PSU is only one component of that system. So that is where an investigation starts. A power system defect can make any other good component act defective.

An RMS digital meter might say something - but not everything. No replacement exists for an oscilloscope. Because 120 AC voltages must even be over 200 volt square waves with 300 volt spikes - and DC voltages do not vary by even 0.2 volts. Both DC voltage and ripple voltage.

Until a power system is verified, then all other parts can act defective. So nobody tries to fix anything. First a defect is identified starting with the electronics's foundation.

Nothing on AC mains (short of a complete blackout or a 1000 volt spike) should affect those DC voltages. If DC voltages are affected, only then do we move on to identify the one defective(among many parts) inside a power supply 'system'.

Sorry. There is no simpler solution here.

Now if DC power (inside every component) is clean (because the power system has not failed and was properly designed), only then do we move on to other suspects. Noise can also be from any one component. For example, let's say A connects to B. And B connects to C. And C connects to A. (Even a safety ground, neutral, and hot wires must be treated as three completely independent connections.)

Disconnect a B to C connection and noise is diminished. Does that mean that noise is generated in B or C? Of course not. Noise could be in A. Noise current does not exist if it does not have both an incoming and a completely different outgoing path (a concept taught in elementary school science). So disconnecting B to C temporarily interrupted the A to B to C to A electric current loop.

Solution here is about identifying every wire that might be in that loop. Even a USB device is four separate wires. RCA connector is two. And yes, it can get challenging. Which explains why so many never even tired to discuss "finding a defective before fixing anything".

Believe me. Using the oscilloscope to verify DC voltages is the easy part. Tracing noise current loops can be challenging - mostly time consuming. For example, the B to C connection could be via multiple wires. Disconnect one wire and that loop still exists. But this is how every tech who knows his **** solves problems.

To have assistance, first every wire (every interconnecting cable and conductor - ie even a desktop can be a conductor) must be defined. Otherwise others cannot really provide informed assistance. Or recommend neat, inexpensive, and simple tools to help traced the defect.

One powerful too is that three prong to two prong AC plug adaptor. It violates human safety. But it a great tool to temporarily discover a B to C connection is via the safety ground wire. Since a safety ground wire cannot be filtered. And connects directly to DC voltages.
Old 26th February 2019
  #69
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PaulMac's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
Solutions always start by first identifying the problem - and doing nothing (yet) to solve it. For example, if a household door is sticking, then does someone plane down that door? Of course not. First the reason for that defect is located. Fixing it (rebuilding a foundation, replacing a cracked joist, etc) only happens after the defect is located.

Same applies to all electronics. Foundation of every electronic device is its power system. PSU is only one component of that system. So that is where an investigation starts. A power system defect can make any other good component act defective.

An RMS digital meter might say something - but not everything. No replacement exists for an oscilloscope. Because 120 AC voltages must even be over 200 volt square waves with 300 volt spikes - and DC voltages do not vary by even 0.2 volts. Both DC voltage and ripple voltage.

Until a power system is verified, then all other parts can act defective. So nobody tries to fix anything. First a defect is identified starting with the electronics's foundation.

Nothing on AC mains (short of a complete blackout or a 1000 volt spike) should affect those DC voltages. If DC voltages are affected, only then do we move on to identify the one defective(among many parts) inside a power supply 'system'.

Sorry. There is no simpler solution here.

Now if DC power (inside every component) is clean (because the power system has not failed and was properly designed), only then do we move on to other suspects. Noise can also be from any one component. For example, let's say A connects to B. And B connects to C. And C connects to A. (Even a safety ground, neutral, and hot wires must be treated as three completely independent connections.)

Disconnect a B to C connection and noise is diminished. Does that mean that noise is generated in B or C? Of course not. Noise could be in A. Noise current does not exist if it does not have both an incoming and a completely different outgoing path (a concept taught in elementary school science). So disconnecting B to C temporarily interrupted the A to B to C to A electric current loop.

Solution here is about identifying every wire that might be in that loop. Even a USB device is four separate wires. RCA connector is two. And yes, it can get challenging. Which explains why so many never even tired to discuss "finding a defective before fixing anything".

Believe me. Using the oscilloscope to verify DC voltages is the easy part. Tracing noise current loops can be challenging - mostly time consuming. For example, the B to C connection could be via multiple wires. Disconnect one wire and that loop still exists. But this is how every tech who knows his **** solves problems.

To have assistance, first every wire (every interconnecting cable and conductor - ie even a desktop can be a conductor) must be defined. Otherwise others cannot really provide informed assistance. Or recommend neat, inexpensive, and simple tools to help traced the defect.

One powerful too is that three prong to two prong AC plug adaptor. It violates human safety. But it a great tool to temporarily discover a B to C connection is via the safety ground wire. Since a safety ground wire cannot be filtered. And connects directly to DC voltages.
Thanks for the advice once more. It's helped a tonne!

So the sine wave my AC is giving is sometimes "clipped". I think an AC regenerator is the only fix for this, right?
Old 28th February 2019
  #70
Gear Nut
 

I've tried all kinds of stuff. I now use the Zero Surge units and couldn't be happier.

Home - Zero Surge
Old 28th February 2019
  #71
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtwrace View Post
I've tried all kinds of stuff. I now use the Zero Surge units and couldn't be happier.

Home - Zero Surge


It's a big problem in these forums that people hold opinions, with no supporting evidence, that clearly contradict the available evidences - that's called religion and it has no place in audio.
Earl Geddes - 2009


don't change anything
Old 28th February 2019
  #72
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMac View Post
So the sine wave my AC is giving is sometimes "clipped".
A clipped AC wave is nothing more than sine waves at higher frequencies. This harmonics must be eliminated by the filter, then converted to DC, and then more filters. Standard features.

AC regenerators typically have even more harmonics.

Once that DC voltage is filtered, then it is converted to well over 300 volt radio frequency spikes. That is power far 'dirtier' than anything on AC mains. And then more filters, galvanic isolation, and regulators convert those well over 300 volt spikes into the rock stable, low DC voltages that power semiconductors. So many filters, conversion to DC, then to AC, then to DC again, etc are why the power system make all that AC line noise irrelevant.

Amazing are how many features are found in an inexpensive power supply.
Old 1st March 2019
  #73
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PaulMac's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
A clipped AC wave is nothing more than sine waves at higher frequencies. This harmonics must be eliminated by the filter, then converted to DC, and then more filters. Standard features.

AC regenerators typically have even more harmonics.

Once that DC voltage is filtered, then it is converted to well over 300 volt radio frequency spikes. That is power far 'dirtier' than anything on AC mains. And then more filters, galvanic isolation, and regulators convert those well over 300 volt spikes into the rock stable, low DC voltages that power semiconductors. So many filters, conversion to DC, then to AC, then to DC again, etc are why the power system make all that AC line noise irrelevant.

Amazing are how many features are found in an inexpensive power supply.
Ok, point taken.
So you are essentially saying there shouldn't be a problem with high end gear? As soon as it's plugged in the power supply is already doing an alright job, assuming the wiring it's coming from doesn't produce ground hum?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #74
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PatrickFaith's Avatar
 

I just got a new grounding rod and multiple dedicated circuit breaker for specific equipment groups, best high end purchase i've made this year. I have a ton of both old transister/inducter & tube gear ... is so nice knowing exactly what is on each circuit and its all centrally grounded. I btw also got an oscilliscope 6 months ago, is nice quickly finding noise issues.
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