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Have you ever nailed a big elec guitar tone? What did you do? Condenser Microphones
Old 1 week ago
  #31
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CEB View Post
For me, the biggest, non-cheesy distorted guitar sounds ironically come from smaller combos.
Think in the vein of Autolux, Highly Suspect, etc.
ok let's listen what you suggest...




I can say that I like the vibe, the band... but the tone is very different to what I would use for my music or "big sounding" guitars.
They use the right tone for their work.
Old 1 week ago
  #32
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
This is why people are reluctant to post their work.
We are 8 billion people in the world.
If only a quota of 1/10000 likes something but the remaining 9999/10000 dislike it, I'm still happy for the percentual... it means 800'000 of people may like the "cheesy" distorted guitars
Old 1 week ago
  #33
CEB
Gear Head
 

I agree that Autolux is a particular band with a particular sound. (Also, I'd suggest people listen to their actual records, especially Future Perfect, and decide for themselves if they think those guitars sound huge or not.) As always, a part of perceived "bigness" is arrangement and a quiet-loud dynamic helps that out.

As you said before, your previous posts are referring to a certain kind of metal guitar sound. I consider most of those sounds very tied to their genre and yes, cheesy. That's just my taste - there is nothing "bad" about that sound. You have your definition of "big" and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with your examples. I just don't think it is a catch-all that works for anyone not doing that specific genre.

While there are some bands like Converge that get incredible sounds from 4x12s, for everybody else, I would suggest that playing the 4x12 game is often less expedient and less focused than something like a Fender Princeton/Deluxe with its front-end pushed, captured with one mic. Another point of disagreement I might have is that part of the perceived excitement of the guitars on some records is boosting the **** out of certain ranges, instead of cutting everywhere. People neuter the 300-500 hz range without realizing that if you balance the rest of the mix correctly, you get quite a bit of body by pushing these low-mid areas.
Old 1 week ago
  #34
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CEB View Post
People neuter the 300-500 hz range without realizing that if you balance the rest of the mix correctly, you get quite a bit of body by pushing these low-mid areas.
The master engineer would remove them using his global eq, for you if don't do it at first, in some audio systems and portables, those frequencies buildup "badly" for sure if a lot of commercial songs are prepared this way. Imho.
I would not push so much in that zone of the mix.
A bit can be good, but not so much or the mix will sound good only on your room/monitors coupled together but with some problems in other exotic systems.
Old 1 week ago
  #35
I get the big sound via active on board electronics. That gives the guitars a very clear top end and removes the boxy sound they get after running down a 20' cable. Loading from the passive volume and tone pots with the cable capacitance ends up creating a peaked top end that is ice picks to the ears. The response ends where the amp/speakers/pickups run up against the passive high impedance losses, sort of like a high mid EQ boost.

The active guitars avoid that sonic brickwall filter and have a clearer, less boxy tone, they sound huge in comparison.
Old 1 week ago
  #36
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
I get the big sound via active on board electronics. That gives the guitars a very clear top end and removes the boxy sound they get after running down a 20' cable. Loading from the passive volume and tone pots with the cable capacitance ends up creating a peaked top end that is ice picks to the ears. The response ends where the amp/speakers/pickups run up against the passive high impedance losses, sort of like a high mid EQ boost.

The active guitars avoid that sonic brickwall filter and have a clearer, less boxy tone, they sound huge in comparison.
Could you post an example? Also, why are you using a 20' cable?

And have you experimented with ultra-low-capacitance guitar cables? A local install guy who's thinking about bringing them to market left a couple here for us to evaluate, a 10' and a 30'. They're very stiff and inflexible but they work as advertised. In fact the 10-footer is too toppy for my taste.
Old 1 week ago
  #37
CEB
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimi777 View Post
The master engineer would remove them using his global eq, for you if don't do it at first, in some audio systems and portables, those frequencies buildup "badly".
I would not push so much in that zone of the mix.
A bit can be good, but not so much or the mix will sound good only on your room/monitors coupled together.
Which is why you balance the mix. The guitars are not the only thing boosted. Additive vs. subtractive EQ are two different sounds with different results as far as perceived attitude/aggression/excitement.
Old 1 week ago
  #38
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CEB View Post
Which is why you balance the mix. The guitars are not the only thing boosted. Additive vs. subtractive EQ are two different sounds with different results as far as perceived attitude/aggression/excitement.
Additive vs subtractive wasn't my concern.

However, I'm sure that you remove all the mud in a good way, and we are saying the same thing with different words .
Old 1 week ago
  #39
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimi777 View Post
Additive vs subtractive wasn't my concern.

However, I'm sure that you remove all the mud in a good way, and we are saying the same thing with different words .
One man's mud is another man's meat. I find myself leaving more and more of those low-mids in all the time. It's walking a fine line, though.
Old 1 week ago
  #40
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
This is why people are reluctant to post their work. Please post something less meagre of your own.
Fair enough:
YouTube
Old 1 week ago
  #41
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pief View Post
Fair enough:
YouTube
Mmm... seems nothing special to me.

I was honestly expecting to listen to the new James Hetfield since you said "preatty meagre"...

To be honest you should have more respect for the work of other musicians,
since you guitar have just the same sound that 1'000'000 others musicians have in this world.

Do you have a bad tone? No, I quite like it in your song.

Is your tone better than mine? No, they are simply different (even if they both are in the distortion territory)... I like mine.
Can be meagre for you, but gives money to me.
Old 1 week ago
  #42
Gear Maniac
 
nuemes's Avatar
 

These are all good replies. It sounds like there's some general agreement to mildly cut @400 for mud and mildly boost @2500 for clarity.

In this specific case I'd just recorded a mid-60's Magnatone MP3 (2x12 amp) with a SM57 and Samar VL37 next to each other about 2 feet out and found it somewhat small sounding - my fault for cutting the mids too much on the amp because I was concerned about eating into too much bass for the bass guitar at the time.

The fix ended up being keeping the Samar VL37 center as the main track, panning the SM57 at about 8 o'clock with low volume and then recording a new guitar track, essentially playing the same parts, with a Kemper EQ'd to make up for the missing low mids but with reduced highs to keep it from taking attention from the key track (VL37). Panned the Kemper at 4 o'clock with lower volume.

The guitar sounds full and the vibe from the Magnatone/VL37 remained the key sound.

Will try using a mic to catch reflections next time around.
Old 1 week ago
  #44
Lives for gear
 
chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimi777 View Post
ok let's listen what you suggest...




I can say that I like the vibe, the band... but the tone is very different to what I would use for my music or "big sounding" guitars.
They use the right tone for their work.
sounds small to me, not to mention amateur

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkybot View Post
^ It's not 1/2 as complicated as he makes it out to be. He calls for cutting grills off cabs which is not practical and totally idiotic.
Old 1 week ago
  #45
CEB
Gear Head
 

Again that is a live performance recorded by someone else - not sure why he linked to that when he could've actually linked to a song they recorded?

YouTube
Old 1 week ago
  #46
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimi777 View Post
Mmm... seems nothing special to me.

I was honestly expecting to listen to the new James Hetfield since you said "preatty meagre"...

To be honest you should have more respect for the work of other musicians,
since you guitar have just the same sound that 1'000'000 others musicians have in this world.

Do you have a bad tone? No, I quite like it in your song.

Is your tone better than mine? No, they are simply different (even if they both are in the distortion territory)... I like mine.
Can be meagre for you, but gives money to me.
Kimi...you should not view my comment as disrespectfull. I love music to much to disrespect the makers. Not my thing..

If Hetfield is what you have in mind as a reference...than we might need to refrase this topic to "heavy" instead of "fatt".

To me...they are not persee the same thing.
Fatt to me means sonic depth, transparant and obviously a fair amount of lowend, regardless of the amount of overdrive/distortion.

Its was the sonics i found lacking in your example. Perhaps because of the absence of a real cabinet?


Grtz..
Old 1 week ago
  #47
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pief View Post
Its was the sonics i found lacking in your example. Perhaps because of the absence of a real cabinet?
the real cabinet and the impulse have the same sound because the impulse is always deconvoluted from a real cabinet in a room. Maybe a small "%" of sonic difference... If you think not, you should make an a/b test (recording of course a custom IR with your cab and mic) in your studio and see if it is true.

The good thing of using IR is that you track the out full range signal from any preamp (analog, tube, or digital choose what you want) or simply using the send exit of an amp (that is just the out of its preamp part), then you can change the cab sound while mixing if you want another sound or you want "more room" reverb (choosing a IR signal recorded at X centimeters from the head instead the 0 distance) or play with multi-cab blending (es. 4x12+1x10).

If you don't like the sound, is only because I have chosen to have that exact tone using the settings and the bus equalizer and the overall mixed clip mix/balance (to be honest we can say pre-mixed because it should require more time to be mix ready...). Also that Schecter have pickups more middier compared to my other pricey ESPJap that is emg81/85 but I like it as it is, because is different. You play maybe with P90, they are a special type of single coil. They all are part of the equation.
Also other instruments in the mix, like the drum kick sound can influence your percepeption of the guitar tone once mixed.

I can have your exact tone. I can have the one of Dimebag Darrell that is very different (and I don't like). I can have the tone that you want.
And you also have the same freedom, both in the recording stage that in the mixing stage. But if you set a different one, is not meagre...is just another tone.

It only depends on the final result that you want. Because distortion territory has not a single texture of sound. They are 1000 shades of a "big" dual tracked tone. Big for the "modern" standards of course.
Jimi Hendrix had a big sound when was in its era, pushing his tube head into distortion.
Old 1 week ago
  #48
Gear Maniac
 

For example Pief, if you want, you can try to do a/b quick comparison switching between my "schectVII" clip sound and this video that I link below.
They sound different if you want to search all the sonic differences accurately, but the overall tone is not miles away distant in my opinion.
Petrucci has a lot of $$$ for production you know and he also has very nice hands and talent (is one of my favourite guitarist, specially for the lead solos but also the rhythm parts).
But hey, you can't say that this John Petrucci tone is "meagre"... because eh... it topped in the 19th position in the Billboard200 and people loved it.
Just read the people comments below the youtube video.

Old 1 week ago
  #49
Lives for gear
 

the sound i'm getting is mostly as good (or bad) as the guitar player and the room... - one can't really do much wrong with a u67 in the studio, but listening to an isolated track mostly doesn't tell much.
single or a combination of sm57, m88, md421, m160 or alike often work well, also live; in smaller venues, having all amps in line with the second line, all at reasonable levels often is more useful than a killer amp on 11 with any über-mic...
ir's? if you don't have any space/gear/cannot make some noise - much less fun though!
Old 1 week ago
  #50
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimi777 View Post
the real cabinet and the impulse have the same sound...
Really? If your thinking is based on personal experience, either your personal experience is very different from my own personal experience, or you need a lot more personal experience.

On the other hand, if your opinion is based on what you've read on the internet, well, I know better than to argue with the internet. Or to agree with it, for that matter.
Old 1 week ago
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Could you post an example? Also, why are you using a 20' cable?

And have you experimented with ultra-low-capacitance guitar cables? A local install guy who's thinking about bringing them to market left a couple here for us to evaluate, a 10' and a 30'. They're very stiff and inflexible but they work as advertised. In fact the 10-footer is too toppy for my taste.
Drop by the shop and I'll give you a CD. I use Mogami thin gauge guitar cables, it doesn't make any difference with the guitar cables when driven from a low impedance source, the cable effects are minimized. Sometimes I'll use 50 foot cables if I want to wander about.

The guitars all have a 50 ohm output impedance, they will drive a 100 foot cable easily without any losses. I use a 10k ohm Bourns conductive plastic volume pot, very smooth and quiet. The tone is exactly the same on "2" as on "10".

You can hear these preamps on Birds of Fire and later releases by John McLaughlin's Mahavishnu Orchestra and all of Frank Zappa's work from 1977 on. Bass versions can be heard on stuff from Nate Watts/Stevie Wonder/Alphonso Johnson/Byron Miller and others.

The preamps are very low noise with a 5 meg input impedance. That allows all the tops to be heard. Some have no-load tone pots so I can reduce the loading for a more traditional mushy guitar sound. Thy also drive the crap out of guitar amps as the levels are higher. That lets me set the amp gain lower = less noise. At 50 ohms output they even drive headphones.
Old 1 week ago
  #52
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Really? If your thinking is based on personal experience, either your personal experience is very different from my own personal experience, or you need a lot more personal experience.
Did you use the IR of your cab with your mic and the you have done an a/b micing it in the same exact position? I imagine that you did, but probably you were disappointed becouse you were in the search of the particular speaker breakthrough compression. Or working on a kind of "elegant" tone were the room reverb is part of the tone.
Something bluesy or mid-gain I imagine.
A territory of tone were nuances have their big role.
In that case of course you can hear the difference. The real cab in a real room is the best solution. with no compromise.

However, speaking only about the tones I use, to judge the result I use the musician ear and not the engineer ear. if it sounds like Mesa Recto is a Recto, if it sounds like a Marshall cab is a Marshall...
I mean that the Mesa IR won't never have the taste/shaping of Marshall with GreenBacks. I won't care about microdifferences (where usually a 57 on the grill with zero room reverb is the way)

I'm sure that for the kind of music I need (and Pief seems to need) they do the job and give more freedom in the mix stage (you can swap IR if you want another cab), if make an a/b with the above linked Dream Theather song and my previous clip you will see that they are similar in the tone (of course not identical...)
And when they sound similar my mission is completed. (Maybe you don't like this politic, but works for me)
Old 1 week ago
  #53
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimi777 View Post
... speaking only about the tones I use, to judge the result I use the musician ear and not the engineer ear.
And to your musician ear, the sim is close enough. Cool.
Old 1 week ago
  #54
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
And to your musician ear, the sim is close enough. Cool.
But IR is not a simulator. A simulator is a software. IR is not a software (they need a software to be read).

IR is a physical representation (with some implicit limitations, that I described above) of your exact cab/mic in your room launching a sine sweep from the amp in the room and doing a deconvolution (or something similar I'm not so informed about the physical process, maybe I'm using a wrong word or two, but is to give the idea)
It's a kind of digital photo of the interaction.

Also nice reverbs are done with IR capturing the "soul" of a real place.

It's not so uncommon today a guitarist studio made of some tube heads routed into a Torpedo Studio rack.

Now to see what other musicians think (I'm not convincing you, I'm only explaining my point of view, I hope in a pleasant way), you may read the users comment below this video, just to have an idea of what many musicians think about this "workflow" (and the freedom it gives). You should open the youtube page to read them I think with a double click or similar.

Old 1 week ago
  #55
Whenever I've gotten what I think was the right distorted electric guitar track I've followed the following things that I found through trial and error:

Use smaller, low wattage amps, and turn them up. That way you can use a more sensitive mic, and maybe use a different pickup pattern than cardioid.

Multi-track the guitars with differently voiced versions of the same part. So instead of trying to get the whole tone from a single part, split the part into a higher voiced part and a lower voiced part. Also vary the mic position for each part. My goal is to provide a sense of texture to the sound without things all sounding the same.

Use less distortion than you think you'll need. A little bit goes a long way to giving crunch and size, and most of the time people use too much and the track comes out small sounding. Especially use less distortion for lower pitched guitar parts. Super distorted lows sound muddy and I've always ended up cutting them and wondering why I ever recorded them in the first place.
Old 1 week ago
  #56
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimi777 View Post
For example Pief, if you want, you can try to do a/b quick comparison switching between my "schectVII" clip sound and this video that I link below.
They sound different if you want to search all the sonic differences accurately, but the overall tone is not miles away distant in my opinion.
Petrucci has a lot of $$$ for production you know and he also has very nice hands and talent (is one of my favourite guitarist, specially for the lead solos but also the rhythm parts).
But hey, you can't say that this John Petrucci tone is "meagre"... because eh... it topped in the 19th position in the Billboard200 and people loved it.
Just read the people comments below the youtube video.
Yeah...well. To be honoest, i also think this prettuci person sounds pretty flat.

It sounds like all guitarsound is upfront and there is nothing behind it? How heavy and large you may think it sounds... To me its paper thin somehow. Like a landscape of a big mountain...only to find its a flat piece if cardboard like a stage prop.

But i.m pretty sure its because of sims. Thats the main limitation of them today.

Come to think of it: would amp sims eat up less headroom in a mix than a real
cab with similar tone?
Anyone ever think about this?

Thanks for the insight though ! Appreciate it.
Old 1 week ago
  #57
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pief View Post
Yeah...well. To be honoest, i also think this prettuci person sounds pretty flat.

It sounds like all guitarsound is upfront and there is nothing behind it? How heavy and large you may think it sounds... To me its paper thin somehow. Like a landscape of a big mountain...only to find its a flat piece if cardboard like a stage prop.

Yes I agree that Petrucci tone there is bit upfront somewhat like you say.
But usually a lot of 7 or 8 strings songs are mixed like this.
So I try always to stick with the main industry production standards, because they know what people (loving hi-gain) want. An indirect marketing strategy that you can apply in the tone.

So I think that you have the same identical idea about this one... but it is also an another band known to sound "huge" among people. (For sure it's not music for the church.) In this case you are listening to a djenty 8 string guitar.
I'm not a fan of 8-guitars, but they are very funny for a jam...
Old 6 days ago
  #58
IME getting a great electric guitar sound is deceptively easy. So much of it relies on the player, but also the amp and guitar. It doesn’t matter if it’s a 15w or full on 50w or 100w, each have their place.

For genres like rock, punk etc, anything where layering rhythm tracks is appropriate - mixing different amps and guitars can really bring the track to life and eliminate a lot of the flat sameness that can be problematic, especially for heavily overdriven tones.

I also have found that too much distortion can add to a less potentially higher quality tone; it’s better IME to tightly layer two or more (depending on genre) less maxed out sounds that are leaning a bit more towards slightly crunchy. There will be a cumulative effective and it will create something more special than one amp only.

For genres with cleaner tones like Blues, Folk rock etc it’s not as big of a deal because clean or slightly crunchy sounds will layer more organically IME.
Old 5 days ago
  #59
Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanEldred View Post
IME getting a great electric guitar sound is deceptively easy. So much of it relies on the player, but also the amp and guitar. It doesn’t matter if it’s a 15w or full on 50w or 100w, each have their place.

For genres like rock, punk etc, anything where layering rhythm tracks is appropriate - mixing different amps and guitars can really bring the track to life and eliminate a lot of the flat sameness that can be problematic, especially for heavily overdriven tones.

I also have found that too much distortion can add to a less potentially higher quality tone; it’s better IME to tightly layer two or more (depending on genre) less maxed out sounds that are leaning a bit more towards slightly crunchy. There will be a cumulative effective and it will create something more special than one amp only.

For genres with cleaner tones like Blues, Folk rock etc it’s not as big of a deal because clean or slightly crunchy sounds will layer more organically IME.
^this^

And get the speaker cabinet up off the floor. Test some different mics. You might be surprised by what you find. I use variously a Josephson e22s, an RCA BK-5 and a Royer R-122v on the new Diamond Head album and guitars sounded HUGE (I haven't heard the final mix because it wasn't done here)
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