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Kii Three vs. Genelec 8351 vs. ATC SCM20ASL My subjective feeling Studio Monitors
Old 27th November 2018
  #1
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Kii Three vs. Genelec 8351 vs. ATC SCM20ASL My subjective feeling

I finally got those beauties in the same position, this is a purely subjective comparison, my aim is to find out which brand I like the most(Genelec or ATC, kii is actually a reference), because I have to decide which brand to go for my little home theater.

The signal path:

PC win10 64bit running Tidal->usb out to Mutec MC3+usb->

1.Co-axial out to Kii three controller

2.AES3 out to Genelec 8351 AES digital in

3.optical out to Brooklyn DAC optical in->xlr out to ATC20

ATC & Kii are all using Sorbothane for isolation, the monitor stands are all filled with silicon glue to stop vibration. 8351 is on top of ATC20 because that's the only way I can put it.

8351 is calibrated by GLM, ATC & Kii are not calibrated. Kii is set to exact phase & I apply -6dB bass boundary EQ on right monitor because it's in the corner, left monitor is unchanged.

This room is not symmetrical and the monitors are not positioned symmetrically neither, because there are many restrictions.

My ear to those monitors distance are 1.9m, kii pair is spaced 1.9m, atc & 8351 pair are spaced 1.4m.

My ear is on the same height as ATC acoustic center, 8351 is tilted down to my ear, kii's acoustic center is above my ear 10-20cm.

My subjective feeling after several hours comparison:

They are all very good monitors.
If I only listen to one pair, any of them, I won't complain at all except for the bass light fact of ATC. But, they are also very different from each other. Generally I feel 8351 sounds a little bit better on most of the music, ATC20 sounds better on some simple female vocals(e.g. Jill Barber), and Kii sounds better on electric music.

This is still very, very preliminary, pls don't take it too seriously.I would update this post after more listening.
Attached Thumbnails
Kii Three vs. Genelec 8351 vs. ATC SCM20ASL My subjective feeling-l.jpg   Kii Three vs. Genelec 8351 vs. ATC SCM20ASL My subjective feeling-r.jpg  
Old 27th November 2018
  #2
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I can't really see much in the way of acoustic treatment so it's likely a little unfair biased to the Genelecs which are calibrated to the room. I own the 8351's and think they're fantastic but if you put any of these monitors in a treated room then they'll sound much better.
Old 27th November 2018
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theillusionist View Post
I can't really see much in the way of acoustic treatment so it's likely a little unfair biased to the Genelecs which are calibrated to the room. I own the 8351's and think they're fantastic but if you put any of these monitors in a treated room then they'll sound much better.
Yes I have to say it is indeed not fair at all. The room is totally untreated, and Kii's cardioid function could be impaired by very close sidewall and the ATC by its side.

I am expecting sonarwork's mic, I would try apply sonnarworks to ATC20 to make this test a little bit better.
Old 27th November 2018
  #4
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In all honesty I wouldn’t bother much with sonarworks unless you have a treated room. It may change the eq of your speakers but does nothing for decay times across the spectrum.

Not having the speakers symmetrical in the room (same distance from left and right walls) will definitely not help as your reflection times will be different for each speaker and therefore the phase cancellation on each speaker will be different.

I would definitely look into room treatment before using any monitors of that standard
Old 27th November 2018
  #5
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You're not getting the best from those Kii's either, although being pushed up against an untreated wall like that will destroy any chance of getting good sound from a top monitor.

On a side note, as well as Kii's 'fit' into non optimal rooms due to the active wave cancelling (and boundary settings etc), if you spend the time setting them up properly they absolutely sing. In my setup they open up even more when converging around 2' behind my ears.

I've tested those speakers you have, along with Unity, Focus, PMC etc and found the Kii's to be levels above (for my room, with my tastes). D&D also up there.

Get that room sorted! All the best :¬)

Last edited by b0se; 28th November 2018 at 12:01 AM..
Old 27th November 2018
  #6
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Hey DB117,

Yeah that positioning of the Kii's is just not going to give you anywhere near the optimum of what they really provide.

The side speakers need lots of room.

.
Old 28th November 2018
  #7
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I know guys, it's far from an optimal fair test, however that's the best I can do for now. At least all those monitors are in the same non-optimal situation. I have to make my decision on this compromise.
Old 28th November 2018
  #8
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Move all the other speakers out of the way and listen to the Kii's by themselves. I had to do this when I was auditioning both the Kii's and the D&D 8c's. They each wanted to have some breathing room around them. It's all important.

.
Old 28th November 2018
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Weaver View Post
Move all the other speakers out of the way and listen to the Kii's by themselves. I had to do this when I was auditioning both the Kii's and the D&D 8c's. They each wanted to have some breathing room around them. It's all important.

.
Absolutely. The kii stood there alone (now it's the atc20 position)for a long time, so I know how they should sound
Old 28th November 2018
  #10
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@ DB117 - Great bunch of monitors!

You can absolutely make judgements even if there are compromises in the setup at the moment.

Could you please do us a favour and explain how you feel about the mid and treble/high frequencies
regarding earfatigue - sharp/edgy/bright vs open/neutral but still detailed etc?

While there are a lot of good options out there regarding analytical monitors I often feel they suffer from
the fact that they loose some musicality and are thereby not fully inspirational...
A combination of both would be fantastic.

Last edited by ABBA; 28th November 2018 at 11:11 AM..
Old 28th November 2018
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Weaver View Post
Hey DB117,

Yeah that positioning of the Kii's is just not going to give you anywhere near the optimum of what they really provide.

The side speakers need lots of room.

.
Massive +1 to this.
I don't think you will get the best out of any of those monitors set up in that manner.
Old 28th November 2018
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABBA View Post
@ DB117 - Great bunch of monitors!

You can absolutely make judgements even if there are compromises in the setup at the moment.

Could you please do us a favour and explain how you feel abouth the mid and treble/high frequencies
regarding earfatigue - sharp/edgy/bright vs open/neutral but still detailed etc?

While there are a lot of good options out there regarding analytical monitors I often feel they suffer from
the fact that they loose some musicality and are thereby not fully inspirational...
A combination of both would be fantastic.
Yea we'll see, however I am not a pro so I may not get results pros want to see, and I don't think I have the "golden ears", many times I know there are differences but I don't know how to describe it, I'll try my best.
Old 28th November 2018
  #13
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I had ATCs SCM20, have 8351s since they were released and worked numerous times with Kiis now. SCM20s cannot compare to the other two as they are not as full range as Genelecs and Kiis. Even SCM25s don't produce as great low end (they are actually are the ATCs which I like the least), so you would need to step to SCM45s or 50s to get a more comparable speaker as far as bandwidth is concerned, but ATCs with 50 and above gete much more expensive.

I think Genelecs ans Kiis are great speakers, with different design aspects. Kiis have some of the most controlled low end I had a chance to hear, but are less dynamic with slightly less precise stereo image and worse dispersion IMHO. Genelecs will be more affected by your room, but have some of the best cohesion I have had a chance to hear in speakers. I admit the low end on the Kiis have a great potential to be better in the majority of the rooms and it definitely extends even lower, but IMHO Kiis sound slightly compressed and lack some headroom on their own.

I find it interesting how Barefoots lost all the appeal in the last few years with the rising hype of Amphions. Last week I have been working on Barefoot mm27 mk1 and found them actually brutally honest for mixing duties. They pack enormous headroom and transients really slam at you - out of all these speakers they sound the most like really good FOH speakers. They won't compress and if your room can handle their low end, they have some qualities that none of the speakers mentioned here have. They are not as flat, much more midrange forward, but they really do sound like modern NS10 with extended powerful low end. I actually find mixing on them extremely easy, because the midrange is so focused and in your face and transients clear as a whistle, but I wouldn't use them as a hi-fi speaker.

Last edited by Jantex; 28th November 2018 at 10:46 AM..
Old 28th November 2018
  #14
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I accidentally proved my earlier analyse, during the comparison sometimes I made 8351 & ATC20 sound at the same time, and the vocal sound(because we humans are more sensitive to vocals) instantly degraded, the vocals would sounds hollow and funny, that's exactly the results of 2 identical HF/MF drivers half meter apart should sound like. And this proved I can't use 2 separate smaller center speakers instead of a big enough one.

As why 2 stereo monitors wont make this kind of sound, I think there are 2 reasons:
1. Always the 2 channels contents are different,
2. When the contents are not different we would hear sound degrading compare to mono, we are just used to it.

If I make Kii and 8351/atc sound together it would be unbearable because the kii has huge latency.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
Comb filtering is in effect interference, there would be a distribution pattern on space with two point source interference. On that pattern there would be stripes, how far away the stripes are determines if it would affect the sound quality. If the stripes are say 2 meters apart and the listener is in the middle line of the 2 source then it is fine. That’s why 2 subs is fine.

What determine how far away for those interference stripes (say x)are 3 facters: how far away are you from the source (L), the wavelength the souce produced(w), and the distance between the two sources(d).

Then x=L*w/d
See if L=3m and w is almost equal or much bigger than d, then x would be greater than 3m hence no effect on sound quality. This is why you can see dual mids/dual woofer in a single one monitor but never see 2 tweeters in one monitor. I am on cellphone so I will leave it here, i am sure you can figure the rest out
Old 28th November 2018
  #15
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I hope I've understood this right, you're thinking of using multiple monitor setups? As in you may have a stereo pair and then a center speaker and some others around the room?

If that's the case then you could look into more Genelecs. The GLM software lets you calibrate multiple speakers. It sorts out all your phase alignment between the speakers by delaying some speakers so they align to the measurements you take with the microphone.

Still, I would rather have a treated room and a pair of cheap HS7's than an untreated room with 8351's. Honestly treat your room first and then start comparing monitors. If you do plan on treating the room later then you may well pick the wrong set of monitors now as you have no idea how they sound in a treated room.
Old 28th November 2018
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theillusionist View Post
I hope I've understood this right, you're thinking of using multiple monitor setups? As in you may have a stereo pair and then a center speaker and some others around the room?

If that's the case then you could look into more Genelecs. The GLM software lets you calibrate multiple speakers. It sorts out all your phase alignment between the speakers by delaying some speakers so they align to the measurements you take with the microphone.

Still, I would rather have a treated room and a pair of cheap HS7's than an untreated room with 8351's. Honestly treat your room first and then start comparing monitors. If you do plan on treating the room later then you may well pick the wrong set of monitors now as you have no idea how they sound in a treated room.
Agreed on all points.

@ DB117 - have you been taking measurements as you go? Crucial.

REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software
Old 28th November 2018
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
Agreed on all points.
Agree as well
Old 28th November 2018
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theillusionist View Post
If that's the case then you could look into more Genelecs. The GLM software lets you calibrate multiple speakers. It sorts out all your phase alignment between the speakers by delaying some speakers so they align to the measurements you take with the microphone.
Yes I am building a home theater and right now I want to decide which brand to go, my first choice is still genelecs because of the reasons you listed. The theater would be fully treated. But the room I'm testing those monitors in is untreated.
Need advice for Home Theater acoustic designing

Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
Agreed on all points.

@ DB117 - have you been taking measurements as you go? Crucial.

REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software
Yes I bought a sonnarworks mic on black friday sale and it's on the way.
Old 28th November 2018
  #19
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My overall point is that you're never going to figure it out properly until the room is treated so you've jumped the gun a bit buy getting all the monitors and sonarworks before you treat the room which will take some time to complete. If I were you I'd completely abandon the monitor choice, 100% focus on treating the room and then look at the monitors.

You simply can't make an informed decision right now as things stand. It'd be choosing between 3 different projectors and screen setups in a room with a glass ceiling in the middle of the day. You would have no clue which projector would perform best in a darkened room. You could pick your favourite one at the time which would likely be the brightest, but then it could be washed out in comparison to the others in the dark.

In regards to acoustics, have a search through that forum. I know nobody has replied yet but there are likely other people who have asked similar questions in the past. If you're looking at paying for it to be done you could look at GIK acoustics or something who would design it all for you.
Old 28th November 2018
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theillusionist View Post
You simply can't make an informed decision right now as things stand. It'd be choosing between 3 different projectors and screen setups in a room with a glass ceiling in the middle of the day. You would have no clue which projector would perform best in a darkened room. You could pick your favourite one at the time which would likely be the brightest, but then it could be washed out in comparison to the others in the dark.
Yea I know what you guys are suggesting, totally cool.

For my situation I have to decide the brand first because only after I decide the brand I can know how to hang the ceiling speakers, should I leave CAT5 lines/socket on the wall/ceiling(for genelec calibration), should I use monitor stands(for ATC20 as surround) or I can just use wall bracket(for genelec 8341/40)...You know it's complicated.

And after many hifi monitor audition I actually found that the monitor is way bigger than the room. Dr.Floyd Toole also suggested people can listen a good/bad speaker "through the room", I totally agree with him.

So that's why I emphasize all my monitors are in the same "bad" situation, you know, controlled variables.

And lastly, it's fun to do it. I would be thrilled if someone can do this kind of shootout and post it online, it would be informative and save me a lot money. So I guess people may find my post useful too(or not but at least they get fun, we are in a gear forum anyway ).

So chill.
Old 28th November 2018
  #21
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FYI Sonarworks will create a custom profile for you, but you can't do much with it. It's a finishing tool.

REW is considerably better at helping you place and arrange your monitors, you can make small adjustments between measurements and easily iterate through the results. Start with REW, get your plots as good as you can (treat your room), then try Sonarworks. It's not a magic wand (but can help).

Old 28th November 2018
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
FYI Sonarworks will create a custom profile for you, but you can't do much with it. It's a finishing tool.

REW is considerably better at helping you place and arrange your monitors, you can make small adjustments between measurements and easily iterate through the results. Start with REW, get your plots as good as you can (treat your room), then try Sonarworks. It's not a magic wand (but can help).

Thanks man. Surely I would use REW, I actually have a calibration suite from XTZ but it's pretty dated, gonna try REW after I receive the sonnarworks mic.

Today I found vocals on ATC20 are really charming, very distinctive sound, which sort of has a "in your face" feel. Kii feels more 3D, more spacious, the singer is far away from you, but ATC20 singer is right in front of you and very smooth, very sweet. 8351 is in kind of in between those two.

And 8351 before/after GLM calibration has only minor differences, not day and night. It does get better but mainly less LF boom, GLM won't mess with MF/HF.
Attached Thumbnails
Kii Three vs. Genelec 8351 vs. ATC SCM20ASL My subjective feeling-genelec-right.jpg  
Old 28th November 2018
  #23
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Quote:
ATC20 singer is right in front of you and very smooth, very sweet
Old 28th November 2018
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
And 8351 before/after GLM calibration has only minor differences, not day and night. It does get better but mainly less LF boom, GLM won't mess with MF/HF.
That IS a massive difference.
That's cutting up to 10 dB!

And no, it doesn't mess with HF because that would be a bad idea. Higher frequencies should be dealt with by treating the room because it is so very dependent on even small movements of the listener's position.

The GLM software did the right thing and eq'd what it could. It didn't attempt the huge 10dB dip at 100Hz because that is a group delay that no eq can fix due to a reflection of the bass from the wall behind the speaker. Only fixing the wall or moving the speaker will fix that.
Old 28th November 2018
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
I had ATCs SCM20, have 8351s since they were released and worked numerous times with Kiis now. SCM20s cannot compare to the other two as they are not as full range as Genelecs and Kiis. Even SCM25s don't produce as great low end (they are actually are the ATCs which I like the least), so you would need to step to SCM45s or 50s to get a more comparable speaker as far as bandwidth is concerned, but ATCs with 50 and above gete much more expensive.

I think Genelecs ans Kiis are great speakers, with different design aspects. Kiis have some of the most controlled low end I had a chance to hear, but are less dynamic with slightly less precise stereo image and worse dispersion IMHO. Genelecs will be more affected by your room, but have some of the best cohesion I have had a chance to hear in speakers. I admit the low end on the Kiis have a great potential to be better in the majority of the rooms and it definitely extends even lower, but IMHO Kiis sound slightly compressed and lack some headroom on their own.

I find it interesting how Barefoots lost all the appeal in the last few years with the rising hype of Amphions. Last week I have been working on Barefoot mm27 mk1 and found them actually brutally honest for mixing duties. They pack enormous headroom and transients really slam at you - out of all these speakers they sound the most like really good FOH speakers. They won't compress and if your room can handle their low end, they have some qualities that none of the speakers mentioned here have. They are not as flat, much more midrange forward, but they really do sound like modern NS10 with extended powerful low end. I actually find mixing on them extremely easy, because the midrange is so focused and in your face and transients clear as a whistle, but I wouldn't use them as a hi-fi speaker.

Thought they had a sort of hardness to them, a sort of slight rigidness at first. But after a proper weight ratio balance of Sorborthane sandwiched in between some solid plates it was much more apparent than I heard on other monitors for some reason, they were more sensitive to this.
This was remedied, it got shot of this issue and I realised they’re much more touchy than other monitors regarding isolation for some reason, you could hear it almost like a mild distortion in the mids coming through on some material. Possibly what your hearing as a slight compression as you say.
Over time the bass becomes more relaxed in use over the year with the Sorborthane certainly helps & more natural to the ear. But still keeping there precision and extremely fast speed from top to bottom.


If you could possibly try to explain how? in what way do you find the Genelec 8351 image is a bit better? That is really interesting to me.
I ask because it was one of the reasons why I got the Kii’s in the first plaice.
To me the imaging of the Kii’s is pinpoint, deep and projecting out in to the room, no little cloud area’s (unless it’s intentional).
I can easily locate sounds in time & space. If as you say the imaging is a little better on the 8351, I first think to my self how’s that possible and then secondly think when I get a chance to test them out I will, to see what there about and to see if what you say is a reality to me as well.
Old 28th November 2018
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
but ATC20 singer is right in front of you and very smooth, very sweet.
Funny you say that...it was the exact same impression I had on my ATC 20s when I played the very first song, Billie Jean. Couldn't believe it, felt like I was at a MJ concert and he was playing in front of me. It's probably the 1st reason I am in love with my monitors and ATC in general as a philosophy of doing technology and business in the same time...they feel very personal, very intimate, sensual in a sense I can't explain.
Old 29th November 2018
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
That IS a massive difference.
That's cutting up to 10 dB!

And no, it doesn't mess with HF because that would be a bad idea. Higher frequencies should be dealt with by treating the room because it is so very dependent on even small movements of the listener's position.

The GLM software did the right thing and eq'd what it could. It didn't attempt the huge 10dB dip at 100Hz because that is a group delay that no eq can fix due to a reflection of the bass from the wall behind the speaker. Only fixing the wall or moving the speaker will fix that.
I am aware of that. And they didn't fix the null because that would cut the LF headroom a lot, not because the origin of the null( the peak is actually from the same origin as the null).

I understand for pros the 10dB difference is huge because you are making the art/music, and even a minor difference would be crucial not even mention a 10dB one! But, for music listening, a 10dB boost in LF is actually not that significant(compare to, say a flat response from a bad monitor, or distortion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreiPiatra View Post
Funny you say that...it was the exact same impression I had on my ATC 20s when I played the very first song, Billie Jean. Couldn't believe it, felt like I was at a MJ concert and he was playing in front of me. It's probably the 1st reason I am in love with my monitors and ATC in general as a philosophy of doing technology and business in the same time...they feel very personal, very intimate, sensual in a sense I can't explain.
Yes this! exactly, the vocal from ATC20 is like magic, and it takes time to find out(the first time I listened to ATC150 I did not notice it, only smooth mids).

Now I am wondering, since vocals(and sometimes other lead instrument too, like lead violin)are so prominent on ATC20, and far less so on Kiis(actually on Kiis you would notice all the instruments together, the sound stage is huge, my attention is not particularly drawn to vocals on kiis), how can you make faithful mix on anyone of them? I mean they couldn't all be the standard right? So either one of them is not faithful or both of them aren't faithful.

I can imagine if it was me to mix on ATC20 I would lower the vocal channel and do the opposite if mix on kiis. So naturally the mix on ATC20 would appear "vocal light" on Kiis, am I understanding it right?

Edit: please don't take this as ATC20 being better, it's not. It's just different. For now I think 8351 & kii are more alike to each other, while ATC20 being another kind, which may not be a good thing especially if we assume there should be a "correct" sound.

And it could be due to frequency response, I'll measure it after I got the mic.
Old 29th November 2018
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
I am aware of that. And they didn't fix the null because that would cut the LF headroom a lot, not because the origin of the null( the peak is actually from the same origin as the null).
Someone created a simple graphic of how this works in the Studio Design forum. I'll try to see if I can find it since it simplifies explaining what is happening. You can't drive (increase level) into a null due to excess group delay because it won't result in anything. Much like you can't cut into a peak due to a excess group delay. The problem will still exist and they are only superficially linked due to position. What you do create (by driving level) is an increased differences from the overall frequency response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
I understand for pros the 10dB difference is huge because you are making the art/music, and even a minor difference would be crucial not even mention a 10dB one! But, for music listening, a 10dB boost in LF is actually not that significant(compare to, say a flat response from a bad monitor, or distortion)
10dB for anyone is large.
If you don't get the magnitude of this, imagine having two speakers playing 61Hz of coherent signal (perfectly in-phase) at the listening position. Now turn one speaker off. Completely off. That's a loss of only 6 dB. Your cut shows near 12dB cut.

If you're saying to yourself "well two perfectly coherent signals at 61Hz don't happen" -- bad news for you. A kick drum or a bass guitar can play that low and often are center panned which means coherent. GLM did a major correction there. Often with eq correction, you limit to 6dB or up to 10dB correction and never let it go further than that.

For professionals, 1-3dB is of issue when eq'ing a mix. When you get 6-10dB, that's an issue anyone should be able to hear. Quite frankly, when even non-professional speaker makers (or some professional ones who refuse to give full specs) list limits, they are listing the -10dB point. The point things are so utterly useless from their manufacturing viewpoint to sell to even consumers.


Professional speakers (most, not all -- really hating to have to make the exception for one speaker maker), use -3dB from flat as their cut off point.

Last edited by pentagon; 29th November 2018 at 10:03 AM.. Reason: +"view"
Old 29th November 2018
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie-1 View Post
Thought they had a sort of hardness to them, a sort of slight rigidness at first. But after a proper weight ratio balance of Sorborthane sandwiched in between some solid plates it was much more apparent than I heard on other monitors for some reason, they were more sensitive to this.
This was remedied, it got shot of this issue and I realised they’re much more touchy than other monitors regarding isolation for some reason, you could hear it almost like a mild distortion in the mids coming through on some material. Possibly what your hearing as a slight compression as you say.
Over time the bass becomes more relaxed in use over the year with the Sorborthane certainly helps & more natural to the ear. But still keeping there precision and extremely fast speed from top to bottom.


If you could possibly try to explain how? in what way do you find the Genelec 8351 image is a bit better? That is really interesting to me.
I ask because it was one of the reasons why I got the Kii’s in the first plaice.
To me the imaging of the Kii’s is pinpoint, deep and projecting out in to the room, no little cloud area’s (unless it’s intentional).
I can easily locate sounds in time & space. If as you say the imaging is a little better on the 8351, I first think to my self how’s that possible and then secondly think when I get a chance to test them out I will, to see what there about and to see if what you say is a reality to me as well.
Don't get me wrong. All the speakers OP has currently in his room are superb speakers. Kiis have wonderful imaging, but I believe it might have something to do with extremely controlled directivity in both directions and coaxial source of Genelecs 8351. Why I am saying "it might" is because I haven't done any comparable measurements and also don't know what kind of measruements could provide me with sufficient data to back up my claim other than almost perfect radiation patern in the xy axis of Genelecs. While I agree with everything you say about Kiis, I can say that it is even more emphasized and by that I mean even better localization of sound. But again, this is only my subjective perception while A/B-ing both. Nevertheless, both are great and I could easily work with any of them without any issues.

Same goes for ATC SCM20, only that i would definitely need a subwoofer (like I had it in the past while working with them).
Old 29th November 2018
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
You can't drive (increase level) into a null due to excess group delay because it won't result in anything. Much like you can't cut into a peak due to a excess group delay. The problem will still exist and they are only superficially linked due to position. What you do create (by driving level) is an increased differences from the overall frequency response.
I'm afraid I cant agree with you on this one. The interference pattern on a specific frequency is static, when the source amplitude change, the amplitude of
everywhere else changes accordingly, linearly. if you double the source amplitude, the peak & null amplitude somewhere else would also double.

That's why home theater guys love to use EQ for subwoofers, according to what I've read it is indeed effective.(but it would make group delay/LF boom more serious,that's the price to pay other than LF headroom shrinkage)

No one do this on MF/HF is because the interference pattern is much denser, the peaks & nulls are so close that if you move the calibrating mic just a little bit the frequency response would be different, thus EQing it is not practical(you are just EQing that particular small point position of the mic, which would make elsewhere even worse). But for LF the space between peaks & nulls are often more than 0.5 meter, sometimes even more than several meters, that's why we can EQ some particular position and just ignore everywhere else.

All above is theoretical because I don't have subwoofer EQ experience, but I believe it's correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
10dB for anyone is large.
If you don't get the magnitude of this, imagine having two speakers playing 61Hz of coherent signal (perfectly in-phase) at the listening position. Now turn one speaker off. Completely off. That's a loss of only 6 dB. Your cut shows near 12dB cut.

If you're saying to yourself "well two perfectly coherent signals at 61Hz don't happen" -- bad news for you. A kick drum or a bass guitar can play that low and often are center panned which means coherent. GLM did a major correction there. Often with eq correction, you limit to 6dB or up to 10dB correction and never let it go further than that.

For professionals, 1-3dB is of issue when eq'ing a mix. When you get 6-10dB, that's an issue anyone should be able to hear. Quite frankly, when even non-professional speaker makers (or some professional ones who refuse to give full specs) list limits, they are listing the -10dB point. The point things are so utterly useless from their manufacturing viewpoint to sell to even consumers.


Professional speakers (most, not all -- really hating to have to make the exception for one speaker maker), use -3dB from flat as their cut off point.
I totally agree with you on this one. You misunderstood me, when I say a -10dB null is not significant I am comparing this with changing it to another monitor.

When I compared 8351 with GLM calibration on vs. off, there is indeed audible difference, and it would be very clear if you listen to pink noise. But, if you compare it with music material, the significance of the difference would be depending on what you listen to, if the music does not contain the null frequency, then you won't be able to tell the difference.

However, changing from 8351 to ATC20(level matched), the difference is so obvious that even the children could tell. That's what I am saying, GLM calibration or not, compare to monitor change, is small.
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