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Kii Three vs. Genelec 8351 vs. ATC SCM20ASL My subjective feeling Studio Monitors
Old 2nd March 2019
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
And since last month I've been choosing a car, I tested many car audio including:
Porche panamera
Porche cayenne
Porche macan
BMW 740i
BMW 730I
BMW X5
Mercedes S350
Mercedes GLE400
Volvo XC90
Tesla Model X

Of all those cars I tested, I found the B+W audio from Volvo xc90(and model x) is by far the best, and that's one of the reasons I bought it. Slightly inferior would be JBL and Harman kardon(cant remember which is from which though), and worst would be Burmester & Bose.

I wonder do you guys have the same opinions? Especially for B+W, do you also recon it as the best car audio?
The valid test is abx in the same car, at the time and on a straight line.
Old 4th March 2019
  #182
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IkennaFuNkEn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
This is where a picture worth more than a thousand words, please see attached, from 30Hz-50Hz Kii & 8351 have the same output, while atc is smaller(but after sonarworks boost it would be much better), but below 30Hz Kii has much more output than 8351(to "smear" the song), and below 25Hz atc20 without sonar boost also output more than 8351.

In fact regarding LF response I think atc20 is much more like Kii, just with lower output. 8351 is another kind of beast.

The whole point is, if it's "more LF output" that make 8351 sounds a litter bit loose compare to atc20 & kii, then Kii with much more LF output should be worse, the truth is kii is not worse, it is actually better.

Now pls remember all those differences I am talking about is not night vs day, in fact you have to find the right music to appreciate the difference, for most of the music the difference between 8351 & atc20 is actually quite small. And I think it's because good monitors generally sounds alike.


BTW, I just did a lab test of my hearing, and found my hearing capability is actually superior(at least without any hearing loss), I can hear 0dB sound without a sweat.

Turns out I don't have dumb ears at all (ok I know this is different from how can I hear the nuances in music)
Why do all the monitors dip at 100hz. I thought glm was suppose to make everything flat
Old 4th March 2019
  #183
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Jantex's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IkennaFuNkEn View Post
Why do all the monitors dip at 100hz. I thought glm was suppose to make everything flat
Because of the room mode due to the room dimensions. When there is negative interference no eq can help it. Only room treatment and careful positioning.
Old 5th March 2019
  #184
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IkennaFuNkEn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
Because of the room mode due to the room dimensions. When there is negative interference no eq can help it. Only room treatment and careful positioning.
Excuse my ignorance, I was under the impression it fixed stuff like that... what is the benefit of glm if it doesn’t fix dips and peaks?
Old 5th March 2019
  #185
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electricsound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IkennaFuNkEn View Post
Excuse my ignorance, I was under the impression it fixed stuff like that... what is the benefit of glm if it doesn’t fix dips and peaks?
it fixes peaks but not dips
Old 5th March 2019
  #186
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DB117's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IkennaFuNkEn View Post
Excuse my ignorance, I was under the impression it fixed stuff like that... what is the benefit of glm if it doesn’t fix dips and peaks?
Try Sonarworks.
Have a look at the FR graph I posted, sonarworks is much better than GLM on dips. GLM doesn't solve dips because that would affect power output, however if don't use the monitors at extremely high level you can use sonarworks to fix the dips. It works very well.

And further ATC20+bagend Isub18+sonarworks after discount(you get more discount from atc than genelecs) would be roughly in the same level with just a single pair of 8351 but has a much better sound.( your ears should be at least 2m from atc20 though)
Old 5th March 2019
  #187
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Jantex's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IkennaFuNkEn View Post
Excuse my ignorance, I was under the impression it fixed stuff like that... what is the benefit of glm if it doesn’t fix dips and peaks?
It does fix peaks, but doesn’t touch dips. Because filling the dips would only increase distortion and cause ringing without any positive effect. So you must position the speaker so that you try to avoid any major dips in the response.
Old 5th March 2019
  #188
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Jantex's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
Try Sonarworks.
Have a look at the FR graph I posted, sonarworks is much better than GLM on dips. GLM doesn't solve dips because that would affect power output, however if don't use the monitors at extremely high level you can use sonarworks to fix the dips. It works very well.

And further ATC20+bagend Isub18+sonarworks after discount(you get more discount from atc than genelecs) would be roughly in the same level with just a single pair of 8351 but has a much better sound.( your ears should be at least 2m from atc20 though)
SCM20s don’t sound better. Had them for more than 5 years and while they were good, 8351s are on another level. When you pair them with Genelec sub they become the best nearfield monitoring system there is and I habe tried and worked on many.
Old 5th March 2019
  #189
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DB117's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
SCM20s don’t sound better. Had them for more than 5 years and while they were good, 8351s are on another level. When you pair them with Genelec sub they become the best nearfield monitoring system there is and I habe tried and worked on many.
No what I said is atc20+bagend+sonarworks is much better than 8351+glm.

Without experience on the comparison I would definitely trust your conclusion, however I have compared them in various ways in the same room for a very long time so I would trust my ears.
Old 5th March 2019
  #190
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IkennaFuNkEn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
No what I said is atc20+bagend+sonarworks is much better than 8351+glm.

Without experience on the comparison I would definitely trust your conclusion, however I have compared them in various ways in the same room for a very long time so I would trust my ears.
Bagend E-trap? How many of those would you need ?
Old 5th March 2019
  #191
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DB117's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IkennaFuNkEn View Post
Bagend E-trap? How many of those would you need ?
ISUB18, it's a subwoofer.
Old 5th March 2019
  #192
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Jantex's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
No what I said is atc20+bagend+sonarworks is much better than 8351+glm.

Without experience on the comparison I would definitely trust your conclusion, however I have compared them in various ways in the same room for a very long time so I would trust my ears.
It is correct to trust your ears. But it depends on many factors. What to you means "sounds better". If you are bass junky, maybe enhanced low end might make it for you. If you prefer mellow sounding stuff, you might like recessed high end. Besides as mentioned, room is the major contributor.

I don't know the bagend sub, but I have used Sonarworks many times and IMHO GLM does a much much better job. It actually does the job the way a room correction should do it. Correct frequencies up to somwhere the average schroeded frequency in a room. Sonarworks always corrects the whole spectrum and above 400Hz all the correction sounds pretty awful in my opinion. So to get most out of GLM, your room and speaker positioning must be good to begin with.

Second, I absolutely believe that a sub added to SCM20s might produce more extended low end and therefore give you a better extension. Still, I prefer the midrange clarity and cohesion of 8351s.

Third, 8351s might be impossible to integrate with an analog sub, due to their latency, so pairing them with analog sub doesn't make them any justice and actually makes many things worse. Therefore Genelec develops their own subwoofers which matches their latency and their 24dB/oct crossover filters.
Old 5th March 2019
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
It is correct to trust your ears



the weakest sense of human.

Old 5th March 2019
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
No what I said is atc20+bagend+sonarworks is much better than 8351+glm.

Without experience on the comparison I would definitely trust your conclusion, however I have compared them in various ways in the same room for a very long time so I would trust my ears.
still need to compare with method :

In MONO (why , all pro should have the answer)
One speaker in the room
All the speakers (acoustical axis) at the same height
With your worst mixe or the sound of the voice of member of your family, daily noises, claps door...

Holy Floyd Toole found strange that pro use their better mixes, in their room and choose a speaker than reproduce the defect of the couple Speaker-Room

Search a speaker that said the truth or said "you are handsome" ?
Old 5th March 2019
  #195
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Jantex's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
still need to compare with method :

In MONO (why , all pro should have the answer)
One speaker in the room
All the speakers (acoustical axis) at the same height
With your worst mixe or the sound of the voice of member of your family, daily noises, claps door...

Holy Floyd Toole found strange that pro use their better mixes, in their room and choose a speaker than reproduce the defect of the couple Speaker-Room

Search a speaker that said the truth or said "you are handsome" ?
You are contradicting yourself. You put facepalm where I said that “it is correct to use your ears” when in the next post you are saying that someone should use the voice of their family members, claps. So how should one assess them if ears are supposed to be such a bad sensing organ?

How do you mix and master without using your ears?
Old 5th March 2019
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
You are contradicting yourself. You put facepalm where I said that “it is correct to use your ears” when in the next post you are saying that someone should use the voice of their family members, claps. So how should one assess them if ears are supposed to be such a bad sensing organ?

How do you mix and master without using your ears?
bis

For the music, i trust in my brain and the ears linked to him.
For the sound, i trust in the measures as imperfect as they are. My KH 420 hab been bought without listening only with the measurements and i am not ready to change.

But if you want to listen speaker before the Mastercard Clap, i'm sure you do not use your eyes or your tongue, you use your ears.

and it's better to test with a glass of cognac than pretend to test.
Old 5th March 2019
  #197
Gear Maniac
 
DB117's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
It is correct to trust your ears. But it depends on many factors. What to you means "sounds better". If you are bass junky, maybe enhanced low end might make it for you. If you prefer mellow sounding stuff, you might like recessed high end. Besides as mentioned, room is the major contributor.
The monitors under test is in the same room and same location.
Sound quality has a part which could be measured, I posted the FR graph which is just that measure. It also has a part which could not be measured, and we can only subjectively judge it, on that part I also think atc20 is better, slightly more detailed, somewhat less harsh. Again this is very subjective, I respect anyone with a contrary opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
I don't know the bagend sub, but I have used Sonarworks many times and IMHO GLM does a much much better job. It actually does the job the way a room correction should do it. Correct frequencies up to somwhere the average schroeded frequency in a room. Sonarworks always corrects the whole spectrum and above 400Hz all the correction sounds pretty awful in my opinion. So to get most out of GLM, your room and speaker positioning must be good to begin with.
Sonarworks is better. Pls see the FR graph I posted, it is very clear.
If you don't mind you can also try a sweep yourself, it has to be with a sub though, before I got the ISUB18, I also cant tell which is better between GLM and Sonarworks.

To A/B test 2 monitors within reasonable time window, it is nearly impossible to put them in exactly the same position(unless you have the equipments from JBL lab), a quick change is more important or you just cant tell the differences, our brain cant remember every detail in the sound for longer time(say 30 seconds).

Still I rarely see a FR graph here, if you have the data to support your opinion(or just to show your excellent room response), why not post a FR graph?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
Third, 8351s might be impossible to integrate with an analog sub, due to their latency, so pairing them with analog sub doesn't make them any justice and actually makes many things worse. Therefore Genelec develops their own subwoofers which matches their latency and their 24dB/oct crossover filters.
Yes, this is also what I suspected.
Old 5th March 2019
  #198
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Jantex's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
The monitors under test is in the same room and same location.
Sound quality has a part which could be measured, I posted the FR graph which is just that measure. It also has a part which could not be measured, and we can only subjectively judge it, on that part I also think atc20 is better, slightly more detailed, somewhat less harsh. Again this is very subjective, I respect anyone with a contrary opinion.
What you show in your measurements is only a single variable of what determines sound quality, that is frequency response at a given position. While it is a parameter of sound quality, distortion plays a huge role together with waterfall and phase response (which is less important in a single point measurement, but your hearing system consists of two ears attached to your head, which are not located at the central spot. But I agree, looking at your graph, frequency measurement at your measurement position indeed looks better once you used both correction systems. I still claim GLM does a better job at what can actually be done, that is controlling the lower part of the spectrum. With both systems you increased distortion boosting the dips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
Sonarworks is better. Pls see the FR graph I posted, it is very clear.
If you don't mind you can also try a sweep yourself, it has to be with a sub though, before I got the ISUB18, I also cant tell which is better between GLM and Sonarworks.

To A/B test 2 monitors within reasonable time window, it is nearly impossible to put them in exactly the same position(unless you have the equipments from JBL lab), a quick change is more important or you just cant tell the differences, our brain cant remember every detail in the sound for longer time(say 30 seconds).

Still I rarely see a FR graph here, if you have the data to support your opinion(or just to show your excellent room response), why not post a FR graph?


Yes, this is also what I suspected.
The resonance issues visible from your waterfall graphs with 8351s are a consequence of not time aligned subwoofer reproducing the same spectrum. I have posted my FR response in my room somewhere in the forum. Will repost it in this thread.
Old 12th April 2019
  #199
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
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Old 13th April 2019
  #200
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octatonic's Avatar
Multiple sets of high end monitors and a new car?

I am betting either a job a an accountant for a cartel or a rich relative died recently.
I'm not jealous... not at all.
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