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Highest possible resolution recording & mixing Digital Converters
Old 5 days ago
  #121
Lives for gear
 
IanBSC's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSwaltz View Post
Well, if the budget is there for playback, more power to you! It’s just interesting that you refer to this as “live sound.” To me, live sound means PAs, big speakers, broadcasting to a large group of people. These are not good conditions for ultra high fidelity playback, and there is no way anyone will be able to tell the difference between 96 and 192 on such a system. On mastering grade monitors, through a mastering grade DAC, in a room with mastering grade acoustics? Different conversation entirely. But that’s not “live sound.” It seems like you’ll need ultra high end speakers. How are they going to handle temperature/humidity/potential precipitation from being outdoors?
If the system is comparable to the Funktion One that used to be at the main room at Space (Ibiza), listeners would be able to hear the difference. There are some incredible PA systems out there, usually geared for electronic music and festivals.
Old 5 days ago
  #122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxplayerz View Post
That's not going to be very stable. No way I'd bet the farm on avid.
Actually my current Avid system is rock solid.
And HDX will be even better.
Old 5 days ago
  #123
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by anguswoodhead View Post
Actually my current Avid system is rock solid.
And HDX will be even better.
I've never been able to do any slow tools sessions without some error posting stopping playback.
Even pro tools expert videos post errors on their rig.
Old 5 days ago
  #124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxplayerz View Post
I've never been able to do any slow tools sessions without some error posting stopping playback.
Even pro tools expert videos post errors on their rig.
You running Mac or PC?
I had an old HD6 system which was awesome.
Running HD12.5 with Orion 32+ converters now
Again rick solid.
I have 32 gb ram
1tb SSD system drive etc
Old 5 days ago
  #125
Lives for gear
 
Adebar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
I'm not sure this is true but even if it is, doubling the sample rate halves the latency. That is the real advantage for live work.

Alistair
It is true. The real great live desks all run at 96k by default.

The latency is an advantage but you can do monitoring with latencies of a few samples already at 48k and they are short enough for live already. So latency is not the big most reason for high end live desk to run at 96k.
Old 5 days ago
  #126
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adebar View Post
It is true. The real great live desks all run at 96k by default.

The latency is an advantage but you can do monitoring with latencies of a few samples already at 48k and they are short enough for live already. So latency is not the big most reason for high end live desk to run at 96k.
not my experience: 96khz doesn't sound any different/better but puts heavy load on recording pc's - and 'real great live desks' are broadcast desks, many of which were designed for/get operated at 48khz. some of them can do 96khz yet the only benefit is (slightly) reduced latency - which is a HUGE issue though when doing inears (and the reason why many high profile acts continued using analog desks for monitor mixing up until recently).

happy 48khz user here...
Old 5 days ago
  #127
Question...
We’re locked in with an HDX MTRX DAD system
Tracking and mixing at 32/192
I run a Cranesong Avocet II
Looking at Kii Audio Three monitors that have AES inputs
Can I go digitally from Pro-Tools - HDX - DAD - Avocet - Kii
All AES / digitally?
Old 5 days ago
  #128
Lives for gear
 

Skip the Avocet. Pointless if you are using a MTRX. ProMon/DADman is built into the MTRX license.

(and yes, you can keep it AES3/digital that way)
Old 5 days ago
  #129
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Adebar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
not my experience: 96khz doesn't sound any different/better but puts heavy load on recording pc's - and 'real great live desks' are broadcast desks, many of which were designed for/get operated at 48khz. some of them can do 96khz yet the only benefit is (slightly) reduced latency - which is a HUGE issue though when doing inears (and the reason why many high profile acts continued using analog desks for monitor mixing up until recently).

happy 48khz user here...
OK, not only the big live desks, also the big broadcast desk can all do 96k and as an example Berlin Philharmonie switched recently to 96k with the Atrus.

Berlin Philharmonie now with 96 kHz thanks to Stage Tec - Stage Tec - professional audio mixing consoles and digital audio routing - made in Berlin

Another big broadcast desks are from Lawo. The mc66 offers 96k at least for 10 years.

Digico
DiGiCo S31 : One step beyond
Old 5 days ago
  #130
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adebar View Post
It is true. The real great live desks all run at 96k by default.
That was not what I was questioning. You wrote "top acts switched only to digital when 96k was available." That was what I was responding to.

Alistair
Old 5 days ago
  #131
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by anguswoodhead View Post
Tracking and mixing at 32/192
Recording at 32 bit is pointless as your converters only deliver 24 bit worth of data. I would say that 192 KHz is also pointless from a sonic point of view but it does have the advantage of very low latency (as long as the rig can handle the load of course).

Quote:
Looking at Kii Audio Three monitors that have AES inputs
The Kii's have two monitoring modes. Low latency (with the resulting phase shifts due to the use of minimum phase EQing/filtering) or high latency mode (90 ms) which isn't appropriate for monitoring live stuff IMO.

For your purposes I would look at monitors without DSP processing for monitoring. Personally I am partial to PSI Audio monitors but there are of course plenty of other high quality options available.

Alistair
Old 5 days ago
  #132
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adebar View Post
OK, not only the big live desks, also the big broadcast desk can all do 96k and as an example Berlin Philharmonie switched recently to 96k with the Atrus.

Berlin Philharmonie now with 96 kHz thanks to Stage Tec - Stage Tec - professional audio mixing consoles and digital audio routing - made in Berlin

Another big broadcast desks are from Lawo. The mc66 offers 96k at least for 10 years.

Digico
DiGiCo S31 : One step beyond
autsch, just to mention the cheapo soundtracs together with lawo or stagetec... - frequent user of the latter two and owner of two studers: i run them on 48khz nevertheless :-)

---

of course 96khz is getting asked more and more but imo mostly due to ill-informed claims following some marketing hype. my main reason for objecting it though comes from working on projects with very high channel/track count: it's a huge waste of resources i cannot justify.

redundant recording on different media beyond 128 tracks is a pita! i'm actually turning down projects when i get the impression that people are more after specs rather than willing just even to start a discussion about aesthetics (moving a mic an inch or swapping for another model/technique does make a difference in sound, using 96khz doesn't).

also, in many venues i come across, the signal path is far from being 96khz thoughout so i would have to bring multichannel sampling rate converters (or go through multiple stages of conversion). and then, the signals end up in horn loaded speaker systems which barely go beyond 16khz anyway and often mess up the low end due to restictions of placement of subwoofers.

reasonable design of speaker systems, proper installation/alignment, phase coherency, spatial resolution, high dynamics (without distortion), terrific room acoustics, ideal hearing position, skilled operators, nice backstage area, even better load in area, enough power, good food, enough to drink, sleep etc.: yes please - high sampling: i dunno...

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 5 days ago at 10:25 AM.. Reason: edited
Old 5 days ago
  #133
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Adebar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
That was not what I was questioning. You wrote "top acts switched only to digital when 96k was available." That was what I was responding to.

Alistair
Sorry, missed your point here.
Old 5 days ago
  #134
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Adebar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
autsch, just to mention the cheapo soundtracs up with lawo or stagetec... - frequent user of the latter two and owner of two studers: i run them on 48khz nevertheless :-)

---
Yes, you are right. This was not a good example ;-)
I´m also a frequent user of Lawo and for music productions I would choose other desks or DAWs.

The only thing I want to say is. When I mix in 96k or 192k for me the difference to a transparent analog summing is smaller than at 48k.
Tracking and mixing at 96k or above for me has advantages in a more open sound.

Delivery is another story.


Quote:
reasonable design of speaker systems, proper installation/alignment, phase coherency, spatial resolution, high dynamics (without distortion), terrific room acoustics, ideal hearing position, skilled operators, nice backstage area, even better load in area, enough power, good food, enough to drink, sleep etc.: yes please - high sampling: i dunno...
YES! All of that.
Hi Sampling: If all the other points are right there I take that too every time I can get it.
Old 4 days ago
  #135
mymixisbetterthanyours!
 

My 2 cents:

You're focussing on the wrong things.
For live playback it won't matter much which high-end converter you're using.

All money that is available should be spent on specifying, installing and tuning the best playback system that is available.

And there are people whose only job that is. Hire the best one you can afford and have him/her travel to all locations to oversee the installation and tuning of the system.
Get in touch with the high-end live systems companies, they can help you find the best engineers that are certified on their systems. Meyer sound, L'acoustics, dB Audio come to mind.

You can go the route of Scorsese for 'Shine a Light' and fly out Bob Clearmountain to every location additionally.
Will ceratinly bring more to the table than any fancy gear discussion here.
Old 4 days ago
  #136
Lives for gear
 

Focus on the weak part of the chain. As said above it’s the speakers and tuning as you are stuck with location acoustics and likely general speaker positions. You will be stuck with some locations speaker system. Next focus on the person mixing the show unless it’s all backing tracks and stage theatrics. Pick a guy/gal that doesn’t go sub crazy as they apparently are hard to find.
Old 4 days ago
  #137
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dbjp's Avatar
 

Guys, someone else is in charge of the playback at venues. He’s only looking out for what he’s being paid and budgeted to do at his own place, which is to record at the highest possible resolution.
Old 4 days ago
  #138
Gear Addict
 

Slow tools is 32 bit plugin processing.
So for 64 bit you could go with reaper or cubase both of which are 64 bit processed plugins.
Both of those are also more stable than slow tools.
Old 4 days ago
  #139
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxplayerz View Post
Slow tools is 32 bit plugin processing.
So for 64 bit you could go with reaper or cubase both of which are 64 bit processed plugins.
Both of those are also more stable than slow tools.
In all DAWs, it is the plugin developers that determine the processing bit depth, not the DAW makers. The DAWs determine the summing bit depth and that is now 64 bit for Pro Tools.

Also, for this type of project, I would go with a universally recognised brand like Avid Pro Tools, not Reaper. This has nothing to do with technical aspects or the ability of the DAWs. It is about politics, perception and covering one's back in case something does go wrong.

Alistair
Old 4 days ago
  #140
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
In all DAWs, it is the plugin developers that determine the processing bit depth, not the DAW makers. The DAWs determine the summing bit depth and that is now 64 bit for Pro Tools.

Also, for this type of project, I would go with a universally recognised brand like Avid Pro Tools, not Reaper. This has nothing to do with technical aspects or the ability of the DAWs. It is about politics, perception and covering one's back in case something does go wrong.

Alistair
No that is not correct the processing is determined by the daw and in Pro Tools the plug-in processing is 32 bit. If you're unfamiliar with this just look at the spec sheet on the slow tools website. Then you can go look at the reaper site and see that the plugins included in Reaper as well as plug-in processing engine is completely 64-bit.
Cubase is also 64-bit plug-in processing as of 9.5.
So technically either one of those programs would be better than Pro Tools as far as specifications go. Also in my experience they are much more reliable than Pro Tools.
Old 4 days ago
  #141
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxplayerz View Post
No that is not correct the processing is determined by the daw and in Pro Tools the plug-in processing is 32 bit. If you're unfamiliar with this just look at the spec sheet on the slow tools website. Then you can go look at the reaper site and see that the plugins included in Reaper as well as plug-in processing engine is completely 64-bit.
Cubase is also 64-bit plug-in processing as of 9.5.
So technically either one of those programs would be better than Pro Tools as far as specifications go. Also in my experience they are much more reliable than Pro Tools.
Rubbish. A plugin coder can use any arbitrary precision they want. 4 bit. 16 bit. 32, 64, 80 bit extended precision, etc. They can use floating point maths or fixed point maths or whatever tickles their fancy.

Of you don't know anything about coding, please don't comment as you are just spreading misinformation.

Alistair
Old 4 days ago
  #142
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Rubbish. A plugin coder can use any arbitrary precision they want. 4 bit. 16 bit. 32, 64, 80 bit extended precision, etc. They can use floating point maths or fixed point maths or whatever tickles their fancy.

Of you don't know anything about coding, please don't comment as you are just spreading misinformation.

Alistair
What u want a picture of the specs?
Clearly you don't understand the difference between host processing capabilities and plug-in processing capabilities. Pro Tools as a plug-in host only supports 32-bit processing it's clearly defined in their spec sheet on the website. The others Reaper and Cubase both support 64-bit plug-in engines.

"The Pro Tools TDM mix engine (supported until 2011) employed 24-bit fixed-point arithmetic for plug-in processing and 48-bit for mixing; current HDX hardware systems, HD Native and native systems use 32-bit floating point resolution for plug-ins and 64-bit floating point summing[1]."
Old 4 days ago
  #143
Lives for gear
I was working in the ADR industry that most use Avid Pro Tools so no option there. I know you could debates other DAW are better than ProTools and all, but by the end of the day we must stay with the mainstream.
Old 4 days ago
  #144
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by asiandude View Post
...I know you could debates other DAW are better than ProTools and all, but by the end of the day we must stay with the mainstream.
not my experience: i'm doing live mixing/recording, broadcasts and mastering and every area has it's own preferred system, none of which is pt.
Old 3 days ago
  #145
Here for the gear
 

Metric Halo ULN-8
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