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Best console under 20k for production?
Old 18th March 2019
  #241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Slapping an EQ across the mix buss only tells me that mix isn't ready for prime time. Rework it without the EQ until it is. There are also many different styles of music besides pop/rock. Many of those won't benefit from that sort of treatment.
In the end, I think you guys, both being respected and learned engineers, are saying the same thing... but from different ends of the same ruler. Proving yet AGAIN on this very same thread that to get to a finished mastered track there are many polarizing ways to achieve the same result.

Reminds me of an experience I had where I GA’d on a traditional jazz LP where the chief engineer insisted to us all over and over that the best engineers get it right with the right mic and placement and even EQ is a band-aid tool and barely touched the eq nor dynamic section of the desk. He produced almost every iconic jazz record out of the 60’s and 70’s here in nyc so I don’t think he’s a slouch. He had one of those motarized ball pinion head mic mounts that controled the shouckmount via powered xlr in the tie-lines down to the millimeter. Took him a full day to set the mics just right with that thing. Then I remember I immediately worked on Guns N’ Roses Chinese democracy LP in the same A room (quite the opposite vibe) where the engineer barley looked where the speaker cone was or stopped to measure the distance from the drum head. CE had interns set them up and he never even touched them if I rememeber. He just eq-d the sh** outta everything and sound replaced half the session using a crazy technique I’ve never seen again. Both records came out at the same time months later, both sounded great, BUT both engineers would slap their forehead at each others technique tho.

I think to say one way is right or wrong is just asinine, what if they told Hendrix he was holding his guitar “wrong”? C’mon... y’all are smarter than to deny the beauty of a different approach than your own. I’m surprised it’s even a debate if you both make great records... which you do, so... aren’t you both just saying there’s other ways of achieving great records?

The only thing I’d add however is that to say masterbuss treatment is not commonly used by working top tier professionals would be erroneous. I’d point out that even the commercial LFC’s (like Otari, Neotek, neve, ssl etc...) have iconic masterbuss topology in their center section for good reason. Mainly being that everyone uses it. It’s infaliably the norm. Outboard buss compressors are used on stems and individual tracks regularly by almost everyone (often during the entire session which I do not subscribe to), maybe more now than in the past? Sure. not only all genres of music but all audio production fields such as film folley, sound design, ADR, SFX, etc, even pre-pro rooms have buss comps in them. even natural tape compression from say a 1/4” mastering tape deck is still technically pre-mastering masterbuss treatment. most modern engineers do in fact “slap” buss comps and a passive or bax eq across their 2 buss. Some like fast like the spectrasonics some like slow vari-mu (like me and my pair of altec 436c’s with Daven output xformers). While it’s totally a legit debate if it’s needed or not, it’s not a debate if it’s commonplace. Coversley, to say it is “correct” to do so is also erroneous (again, Tao de Ching!). Anyway, great thread thanks all, loving all the perspectives

Last edited by jml designs; 18th March 2019 at 09:09 AM.. Reason: Clarification
Old 18th March 2019
  #242
Quote:
Originally Posted by jml designs View Post
In the end, I think you guys, both being respected and learned engineers, are saying the same thing... but from different ends of the same ruler. Proving yet AGAIN on this very same thread that to get to a finished mastered track there are many polarizing ways to achieve the same result.
Thanks for the props, but I'm not sure we are! I'm saying most guys use an EQ on the mix buss; Jim's saying that's because their mixes need a band aid. I find that kinda odd. Esp since these are guys who's primary living is mixing audio, not making, fixing or modding gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jml designs View Post
Reminds me of a record I GA’d on where the chief engineer insisted to us all over and over that the best engineers get it right with the right mic and placement and even EQ is a band-aid if a tool and tried not to use eq AT ALL. He produced almost every big jazz record out of the 60’s and 70’s here in nyc so I don’t think he’s a slouch. Kinda overboard if you ask me, eq is a color on a paint palette just like any other outboard gear but they were amazing sounding records nonetheless. He had one of those motarized ball and pinion head mic mounts that controled the placement via powered xlr tie-lines down to the millimeter and took 2 days to lock in the placement of the rooms before we even pulled up a session file.
If we all had the luxury of 2 days setup time, I think we'd spend a lot more time on mic placement (though how you keep perspective is beyond me! or the patience of the musos..). There's no arguing with the process though - if that's what works for that person, that works. It is fair to say that approach will ONLY work with some styles - those intending to be as true to the performance as possible.


Quote:
So to say one way is right or wrong is just asinine, what if they told Hendrix he was holding his guitar “wrong”? C’mon... y’all are smarter than to deny the beauty of a different approach than your own.
Absolutely. I'm just saying what is common practice, and to say that means the mix "isn't ready" IS asinine.

Quote:
The only thing I’d add however is that to say masterbuss treatment is not commonly used by working top tier professionals would be erroneous. I’d point out that even the commercial LFC’s (being Otari, Neotek, neve, ssl etc...) have iconic masterbuss topology in their center section for good reason. Cause everyone uses it. Outboard buss compressors are used on stems and individual tracks regularly by almost everyone. Even my overdub and ADR work is all required by clients to have it. Clients being Disney, Nickelodeon, Netflix etc. This is standard across the board in not only all genres but all audio production such as folley, sound design and ADR. And don’t forget that even natural tape compression from say a 1/4” mastering tape deck is still technically masterbuss treatment. In fact, most modern engineers do in fact “slap” something like pultecs and a stereo busscomp across their 2buss as common practice, often from day 1 to finish.
Exactly.

Quote:
I don’t until the end but that’s just me.
Ironically - if you're not going to do it until the end, perhaps that processing IS best left until mastering?! Essentially you're making a premaster at this point. In this case, I'd kind of agree with Jim - you've made your mix, if something isn't right rework the individual channels!
Old 18th March 2019
  #243
Deleted be25781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
But it was only getting older, dustier, and not being used. It was time to do it....
Did you replace it or are you itb now?

I had a smaller Orion, sold it for the custom SSL. To be honest it´s not that much of an upgrade. You can make massive sounding mixes with these things, clean as can be too.

Other stuff I would be looking at would be the newer Trident stuff, and maybe a kickass high end Calrec S2 console. Chose SSL because of the records I grew up with, not a name thing at all.

Wish I could fit an 80 series Trident in here..
Old 18th March 2019
  #244
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted be25781 View Post
Did you replace it or are you itb now?
I have a new location, new (smaller) CRM, I'm not tracking larger ensembles as much and mixing more. Going to a hybrid mix situation with 96 i/o of DA.AD and lots of outboard inserted into my mixes made more sense to me.

I did keep a pair of rack mounted D&R Visions in a swinging wall though for my "analog console" fix though...

I do miss seeing her from time to time....
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