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Best console under 20k for production?
Old 28th February 2019
  #211
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRoy View Post
Nice choices. Yeah, I remember those Altecs. Also remember seeing a pair of restored ones on the local Craigslist recently for $1500. Just checked, ad is still up. Huuuuge!
Gonna coin a new abreviation for this one, “jtfu.” It means jump the f*** up. To be used like this:
Dude if you see a PAIR of restored 436c’s up for only 1500 you better jtfu and grab them... that’s INSANE. I just sold a pair on Reverb for $5500 look at the listing under joshua’s Gaggle of gear. I sold another pair 2 months ago for $4500 you can see it there too in my shops history. I am about to pull the trigger on a third pair this week for $3250. Needless to say 1500 for two even in shambles is unheard of please pm me the listing so I can grab them immediately - thanks!

Ps I bought a pair in 2000 for $800. Man how quick this stuff catches wildfire.
Old 28th February 2019
  #212
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Wiggy Neve Slut's Avatar
 

I can say enough good things about my little Focusrite (Audient) 2802. Bags of inputs pretty damn decent summing and buss compressor with DAW control.

Stick a good EQ over mix and it sounds farking awesome.. have my massive passive in mine and it’s sick!
Old 28th February 2019
  #213
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EvilRoy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jml designs View Post
Gonna coin a new abreviation for this one, “jtfu.” It means jump the f*** up. To be used like this:
Dude if you see a PAIR of restored 436c’s up for only 1500 you better jtfu and grab them... that’s INSANE. I just sold a pair on Reverb for $5500 look at the listing under joshua’s Gaggle of gear. I sold another pair 2 months ago for $4500 you can see it there too in my shops history. I am about to pull the trigger on a third pair this week for $3250. Needless to say 1500 for two even in shambles is unheard of please pm me the listing so I can grab them immediately - thanks!

Ps I bought a pair in 2000 for $800. Man how quick this stuff catches wildfire.
Didn't really want to move everything out my studio so they could fit. Didn't see them in use as near fields much either. Didn't have $1500 on me. Didn't think they would fit in the Z4. Someone else jtfu'd them.

I'm a recovering Craigslistoholic. There's barely enough room left in my studio left for a human being. Sometimes, you just gotta say to yourself "I'm gonna let someone else have this one."
Old 28th February 2019
  #214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggy Neve Slut View Post
I can say enough good things about my little Focusrite (Audient) 2802. Bags of inputs pretty damn decent summing and buss compressor with DAW control.

Stick a good EQ over mix and it sounds farking awesome.. have my massive passive in mine and it’s sick!
So it doesn't sound so great without the external Band-Aid applied?
Old 28th February 2019
  #215
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggy Neve Slut View Post
I can say enough good things about my little Focusrite (Audient) 2802.
If you said, "... and it sounds great without any outboard EQ on the mix bus," that would be enough good things. :-)
Old 28th February 2019
  #216
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Wiggy Neve Slut's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
If you said, "... and it sounds great without any outboard EQ on the mix bus," that would be enough good things. :-)
No sounds great! This takes it up another level! Even neves and ssl which are revered often have the same technique applied too.

Would love to let Jim mod it if he was local as a large percentage of these consoles can be improved with some mods here n there and easily
Old 7th March 2019
  #217
Best studios on the planet usually have some coveted EQ’s living on the 2buss, I wouldn’t say that’s a “band-aid” per se. I think he’s saying is he’s found a complementative set of tools to achieve what he believes is a great sounding signal flow (Manleys massive passive tube eq -> 2802).

Good vari-mu compression on a good board’s mixbuss is a stellar look and an age old combination... oldest. Would love to hear that combo. Post some mixes!
Old 7th March 2019
  #218
Back in the 1970's and 80's I never recall seeing an external EQ placed across the mix buss. That, if any EQ was saved for the mastering house.
Old 7th March 2019
  #219
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Back in the 1970's and 80's I never recall seeing an external EQ placed across the mix buss. That, if any EQ was saved for the mastering house.
Wow, people are doing things differently 40-50 years later...
Old 7th March 2019
  #220
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Everybody knows Fruity Loops is the best software for mixing ever
Old 8th March 2019
  #221
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Back then before the loudness wars got nuts, it was about leaving the mix with enough dynamic range for Mastering to apply their tools and still have dynamic range. You have to remember what the broadcasters and radio stations were doing at the time for compression on their end. The mix with more dynamic range usually sounded better to the end user, just as a lot of that material does today with insane levels of compression via broadcast / streaming.
Old 9th March 2019
  #222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Back in the 1970's and 80's I never recall seeing an external EQ placed across the mix buss. That, if any EQ was saved for the mastering house.
Mix eq is different to mastering eq in intention - ima yes you’re awareness of that Jim!

In all my years assisting (2001 to roughly 2007-8) I never saw an engineer NOT mix into eq and compression.

Personally I don’t really understand why people would “save” something for mastering. I’d rather the mastering engineer didn’t do any eq - it means I did my job well!
Old 9th March 2019
  #223
Was just at Figure 8 Studios in Manhattan this week and the chief mastering engineer told me his pet peeve is when people give him tracks that have mixbuss treatment already added. Can’t be removed once it’s printed and greatly limits his ability to do his job. Having said that I’ve heard the opposite from other talented mastering engineers, that the closer you can get a mix to what you want, the better for the mastering house. Further proving that there’s no one right way to do these things, good ears and open mindedness reign supreme.

I for one DO treat my stems and or 2buss before sending to mastering. I’m also a big fan of analog summing (via LFC or summing mixers, same result) and have converted even the most staunch non believers In AB scenarios. Getting as close to zero dB is not usually a concern of mine as far as loudness war goes. For each mix, I know what I want them to sound like and am extremely specific in what I want a mastering house to give me back. That’s just me tho, clearly everyone is different. Look at Fab Dupont, dude is using a transfer console deck on his rough mixes and he’s no slouch. Electric garden studios runs every mix they make through a pair of 436c’s and the chief engineer just won a Grammy for D’Angelo’s most recent LP (I worked on that record with him at electric lady, dude is a brilliant engineer and was mentored by the great Russel Elevado who also treats his 2 buss). I have a 1930’s Fairchild lathe compressors I use on vocals all the time. Nowhere near it’s original intent. Love it. So again, If it sounds good it is. If you get stuck on “by the book”, you’re missing out on a multiverse of beautiful accidents and new sounds. And that’s why we’re here right, not to shoot out mic pre’s but to make better music and connect with the human soul?

Tao de Ching translates to “the way called the way is often not the way.”
The basic principal of Taoism... and audio engineering
Old 12th March 2019
  #224
Quote:
Originally Posted by jml designs View Post
Was just at Figure 8 Studios in Manhattan this week and the chief mastering engineer told me his pet peeve is when people give him tracks that have mixbuss treatment already added. Can’t be removed once it’s printed and greatly limits his ability to do his job. Having said that I’ve heard the opposite from other talented mastering engineers, that the closer you can get a mix to what you want, the better for the mastering house. Further proving that there’s no one right way to do these things, good ears and open mindedness reign supreme.

I for one DO treat my stems and or 2buss before sending to mastering. I’m also a big fan of analog summing (via LFC or summing mixers, same result) and have converted even the most staunch non believers In AB scenarios. Getting as close to zero dB is not usually a concern of mine as far as loudness war goes. For each mix, I know what I want them to sound like and am extremely specific in what I want a mastering house to give me back. That’s just me tho, clearly everyone is different. Look at Fab Dupont, dude is using a transfer console deck on his rough mixes and he’s no slouch. Electric garden studios runs every mix they make through a pair of 436c’s and the chief engineer just won a Grammy for D’Angelo’s most recent LP (I worked on that record with him at electric lady, dude is a brilliant engineer and was mentored by the great Russel Elevado who also treats his 2 buss). I have a 1930’s Fairchild lathe compressors I use on vocals all the time. Nowhere near it’s original intent. Love it. So again, If it sounds good it is. If you get stuck on “by the book”, you’re missing out on a multiverse of beautiful accidents and new sounds. And that’s why we’re here right, not to shoot out mic pre’s but to make better music and connect with the human soul?

Tao de Ching translates to “the way called the way is often not the way.”
The basic principal of Taoism... and audio engineering
I've never worked with a mix engineer (name or not) I rated who didn't.

I suspect your mastering guy got annoyed when things are overcompressed/badly compressed at the mixbuss. After all - if it already sounds great, why would he need to do anything?

If you know what you're doing, then go ahead! I'm very much of the opinion that the master should enhance the mix, not re-invent it.
Old 12th March 2019
  #225
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
If you know what you're doing, then go ahead! I'm very much of the opinion that the master should enhance the mix, not re-invent it.
YES YES YES!!! I once rejected a master because it felt and sounded like the engineer tried to remix the song with EQs and compressors. He ended up stripping all of his processing but the limiter for what was released. I think he even has a quote from me saying something like "it sounds like my mix but bigger" on his site. He's gone on to do some pretty big things.
Old 17th March 2019
  #226
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Darius1's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRoy View Post
There's not much you can't get with $20k these days. Forget SSL, big API, top of the line Neve, Trident, 9098 etc.
Wait what? You're being silly. Here's my baby:

Old 17th March 2019
  #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius1 View Post
Wait what? You're being silly. Here's my baby:

Where do u get one?
Old 17th March 2019
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxplayerz View Post
Where do u get one?
You collect a bunch of channels and you throw it in a chassis.
Old 17th March 2019
  #229
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fred2bern's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxplayerz View Post
Where do u get one?
You could give a look at Recplaystore.com, or studio-dealers.com for example.

Fred

Last edited by fred2bern; 17th March 2019 at 04:04 PM..
Old 17th March 2019
  #230
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If you keep an eye out, you'll occasionally see smaller ones SSL made for trade shows when they couldn't cart around a full sized console. I've seen 8 channel 9k's with a master section, that was pretty cool!
Old 17th March 2019
  #231
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Mix eq is different to mastering eq in intention - ima yes you’re awareness of that Jim!

In all my years assisting (2001 to roughly 2007-8) I never saw an engineer NOT mix into eq and compression.

Personally I don’t really understand why people would “save” something for mastering. I’d rather the mastering engineer didn’t do any eq - it means I did my job well!
Slapping an EQ across the mix buss only tells me that mix isn't ready for prime time. Rework it without the EQ until it is. There are also many different styles of music besides pop/rock. Many of those won't benefit from that sort of treatment.
Old 17th March 2019
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
For those who may still be contemplating the question posed in this thread....

An amazing option IMO.

Mitsubishi Westar 52-Ch Quad Eight Mixing Console Neve Flying Fader Mixer Desk | eBay

I am in no way affiliated, but with the modularity, flying faders, incredible Quad 8 sonics and easy maintenance, this is a contender.
We share an affinity for D&R, among other things, so I'm interested to hear more about your opinions re: Mitsubishi era Quad Eight. Have you spent much time on one? What are the strengths/weaknesses?
Old 17th March 2019
  #233
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehrenebbage View Post
We share an affinity for D&R, among other things, so I'm interested to hear more about your opinions re: Mitsubishi era Quad Eight. Have you spent much time on one? What are the strengths/weaknesses?

Hey Ehren - man, it's been soooooooooooo many years. I don't think I could really put a quality answer to your question. I do tend to like the Q8 variant products. I was just pointing it out to those looking for consoles - REAL consoles - under $20k.

Finding good consoles is getting more and more difficult to find due to their age and for so many of them being abused for decades. Finding a good one is a gem. I almost had to GIVE away my D&R OrionX last year. But it was only getting older, dustier, and not being used. It was time to do it....
Old 17th March 2019
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Hey Ehren - man, it's been soooooooooooo many years. I don't think I could really put a quality answer to your question. I do tend to like the Q8 variant products. I was just pointing it out to those looking for consoles - REAL consoles - under $20k.

Finding good consoles is getting more and more difficult to find due to their age and for so many of them being abused for decades. Finding a good one is a gem. I almost had to GIVE away my D&R OrionX last year. But it was only getting older, dustier, and not being used. It was time to do it....
Thanks! Yeah, it's actually hard to find info about them other than 'they're not as good as pre-Mitsubishi.'

I've been kicking myself for not reaching out to you about your D&R...sold mine when we moved cross country and I wish I'd held on to it.
Old 17th March 2019
  #235
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehrenebbage View Post
I've been kicking myself for not reaching out to you about your D&R...sold mine when we moved cross country and I wish I'd held on to it.
That makes me sad....would have loved for you to have had her.......
Old 18th March 2019
  #236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Slapping an EQ across the mix buss only tells me that mix isn't ready for prime time. Rework it without the EQ until it is. There are also many different styles of music besides pop/rock. Many of those won't benefit from that sort of treatment.
Well, I’d agree if it was “slapping it across”.

But anyone who knows what they’re doing puts it on from close to the start and works with it.

I would have thought even you would agree that a single eq change on the mix buss is probably better with respect to phase shift etc than a bunch of eq changes on individual channels.

That’s the thinking anyway. It’s not just pop and rock, just about every genre I’ve worked or assisted working engineers, people think this way.

It’s not valid to dismiss the working methods of successful, full time pros. Disrespectful and nonsensical. No-one is saying you HAVE to do it personally.
Old 18th March 2019
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
That makes me sad....would have loved for you to have had her.......
Alas, I guess it wasn't meant to be : )
Old 18th March 2019
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I would have thought even you would agree that a single eq change on the mix buss is probably better with respect to phase shift etc than a bunch of eq changes on individual channels.
If I have a more acoustic/folky song where I'm using a lot of ribbons or darker mic's, I've found it's better to do some broad EQ stuff on the master buss with something like a Pultec as opposed to nitpicking and carving up a lot of individual tracks. It just sounds better to me and cuts down on potential noise issues as well. I prefer to do this on the drum buss as well for a lot of minimal mic setups, you can definitely run into phase problems when you EQ each mic separately because you intentionally set up the mics for a lot of bleeding. I've seen a lot of other really good engineers do this too. I'm kind of surprised to hear Jim say that's "wrong". It's just a different approach...
Old 18th March 2019
  #239
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Originally Posted by EvilRoy View Post
"Track on a Neve, mix on an SSL" was what I kept in mind when shopping for a mixer last year. I can see why many prefer a big iron loaded desk for tracking but I was looking for clean and transparent. I can track through outboard iron or process later, although I wouldn't thumb my nose at a Neve. $20k gives you lots of choices on the vintage market, but it's best not to get too locked in to any particular model in case a great deal passes you by on a different one. There's not much you can't get with $20k these days. Forget SSL, big API, top of the line Neve, Trident, 9098 etc. but you can still land a smaller Neve, Trident or a top of the line Soundcraft Jade, Neotek, D&R, DDA, Studer, Calrec, MCI, Amek etc. Don't hold your breath waiting for a $500 Harrison.

I almost went with a Neve VR60 for $10k, gorgeous desk. It needed work and is high maintenance so I thought the initial cost was deceiving. I wound up getting a loaded 32 frame D&R Cinemix last year for $11k. 84 db gain on mic pres, 24 bus, 64 mono w. 64x4 band sweep, 10 stereo with 4 band fixed, 10hz-200khz vca out, moving faders, 5.1 master section with automated joysticks, surround stems matrix, like new. Same sonic ballpark as a Neotek. I was lucky enough to pick up enough dynamics cards to cover all the monos for $500. I can recall them with a button push. It's far more mixer than I was looking for and probably a little above market value due to the condition, but I jumped on it. Unlike a lot of old automation systems, this one speaks midi. Currently porting the vst2 plugin for it to run inside Logic. D&R was made in The Netherlands and sold many more in Europe, bit of a rarity over here. $20k most certainly buys a nice console.

Oh wow, I had no idea the prices have come down so much. In the early 90's I interned in a studio that had a Neve VR-72 with flying fader automation. Beautiful console. The guy paid over a hundred thousand for it.
Old 18th March 2019
  #240
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Trident 78 for sure!
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