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Dear Neumann Condenser Microphones
Old 2nd September 2018
  #1
Gear Nut
Dear Neumann

Great job with the FET47 and 67!.... Now can we PLEASE get to the KM84?
Old 2nd September 2018
  #2

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6_Three View Post
Great job with the FET47 and 67!.... Now can we PLEASE get to the KM84?
Old 3rd September 2018
  #3
Gear Nut
Whatt do you think the street price would be?
Old 3rd September 2018
  #4
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mattcollen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6_Three View Post
Whatt do you think the street price would be?
1k to $1,200 USD is my guess.
Old 3rd September 2018
  #5
Lives for gear
 

Why not a KM54 or KM56?
Old 3rd September 2018
  #6
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toledo3's Avatar
 

I think the main thing that would add to the price over a km184 is the transformer.

The diaphragm in both is the same; it’s the capsule housing, particularly the rear vent difference that causes the high frequency lift difference between the two assemblies (aside from electronic differences with the circuits).

They’ve also been consistently making full replacement heads for km84s, and you can still order them. It really would be a nice next reissue to just go ahead and start making the whole thing again.
Old 3rd September 2018
  #7
Well they are slowly doing it right!? They might just hold on, scouting the waters with the u47fet and u67 and see how it plays out.

Why wouldn't they capatilize on their own herritage? Everyone else is doing it in the business right? Hahah. A u47 would make more sense though since it's the most famous one. WIth or without the vf14, it really doesn't matter to most people. A good tube and a real m7 and a high quality build around 6-10k would be interesting to allot of people (well a few atleast )
Old 3rd September 2018
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattcollen View Post
1k to $1,200 USD is my guess.
More like 1500$

Otherwise they would just play out the 184 and i don't think they would discontinue that one since it's cheaper to build.


My bet is still on the u47, it would be more attractive to the general market.
Old 3rd September 2018
  #9
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mattcollen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by crille_mannen View Post
Well they are slowly doing it right!? They might just hold on, scouting the waters with the u47fet and u67 and see how it plays out.

Why wouldn't they capatilize on their own herritage? Everyone else is doing it in the business right? Hahah. A u47 would make more sense though since it's the most famous one. WIth or without the vf14, it really doesn't matter to most people. A good tube and a real m7 and a high quality build around 6-10k would be interesting to allot of people (well a few atleast )
Wouldn’t they likely use a K47/49 instead of the M7, since it replaced the m7 before production stopped?
Old 3rd September 2018
  #10
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toledo3's Avatar
 

And I would be GLAD about it having a k47, personally.

I’d like to see what Neumann would come up with for alternate tubes, nowdays. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think an M49 would be a great step into that. It’s possible to get substitute tubes in the the basic circuit with little shift in frequency response. There were also three+ revisions, two different capsule types used, so it’s a true case of many sounding different from one another already.
Old 3rd September 2018
  #11
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by crille_mannen View Post

Why wouldn't they capatilize on their own herritage?
I think one reason most companies(in and out of the music gear business) don't do this is they don't want the reissues stepping on their own current(and perhaps more profitable) product lines. This could be one reason why the u67 flew. The $7K price tag wouldn't take away from u87 sales at around half the price, for example.

If I follow this same logic for a KM84, we'd have to go to a price point of $1,800 or more.

Last edited by u87allen; 3rd September 2018 at 06:47 PM..
Old 3rd September 2018
  #12
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It seems it'll be easier & cost effective for the KM84.

For the U47 & M49, it's a completely different undertaking! On both the only thing still being made is the capsule. It's the most important thing but the magic of these 2 mics is the synergy between the 3 main parts (capsule + tube + transformer) & the rest of the "package".

I don't know if the VF-14 & AC-701 can be recreated or matched. Then there's the outlawed elements that go into the transformers. Although they did a phenomenal job on the U67 tranny!

Maybe they can come out with NEW tube mics made close to these designs & call it something else (U-49 & M-47)?
Old 3rd September 2018
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by u87allen View Post
I think one reason most companies(in and out of the music gear business) don't do this is they don't want the reissues stepping on their own current product lines. This could be one reason why the u67 flew. The $7K price tag wouldn't take away from u87 sales(at around half the price), for example.

If I follow this same logic for a KM84, we'd have to go to a price point of $1,800 or more.

Well that was sort of my point aswell! Which it's more likely for Neumann to re-release a top tier mic like u47, m49.

I don't think a tube is so magical that it can't be reproduced to a point that it won't matter. Heyne's biggest Diss was the about the capsule on the new u67 all other things where topnotch.

Can Telefunken charge their crazy prices and stay alive so could neumann have a full blown classic line. But I'm sure Neumann/sennheiser now all about margins and what and what not Is worth producing.
Old 3rd September 2018
  #14
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toledo3's Avatar
 

The m49 did initially have the MSC2 submini before the ac701k. And though people focus on the VF14k - rightfully - the nuvistor valve WAS a stock Neumann retrofit design.

In any event, I’d still be interested in them doing a valve mic based around their k47 capsule that has the classic build approach. Even if it was something new, just based around the same EF86 they’re using.

I think M49 are the lowest hanging fruit with their classic tube LDC compared to the 47/48, because you can use a 5840 and similar, or go up to tubes like UC92, maybe EC92, and not have it be radically different frequency response wise in the end.

In any event, they have a lot of tools at their disposal measurement wise, and great engineers available. Would be intreresting for them to revisit the territory.
Old 3rd September 2018
  #15
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toledo3's Avatar
 

Why would they really care if they just made less km184? There was a solid premise behind the design change but sometimes things don’t work out for everyone. The companents are marginally more expensive with the 84. Very marginally. I would actually be surprised for them to hit people over the head that much for it, and also be so out of line with the vintage market, but you never know. 2G is well OVER the price of vintage. You can get a U47fet at a street price that’s well UNDER vintage cost.

The 67 and 87 prices make a lot of sense, difference wise. There is a whole other piece of hardware involved; the high quality PSU. And then the additional price of the cabling, modest addition of tube price, and it’s not crazy that it winds up at the price it does. It’s not just so they don’t lose sales on the 87!

It’s all hypothetical anyway. :-)
Old 3rd September 2018
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 View Post
Why would they really care if they just made less km184, and had less sitting on the shelves from people not wanting to buy them as much? There was a solid premise behind the design change but sometimes things don’t work out for everyone. The companents are marginally more expensive. Very marginally. I would actually be surprised for them to hit people over the head that much for it, and also be so out of line with the vintage market, but you never know. 2G is well OVER the price of vintage. You can get a U47fet at a street price that’s well UNDER vintage cost.

The 67 and 87 prices make a lot of sense, difference wise. There is a whole other piece of hardware involved; the high quality PSU. And then the additional price of the cabling, modest addition of tube price, and it’s not crazy that it winds up at the price it does. It’s not just so they don’t lose sales on the 87!

It’s all hypothetical anyway. :-)
Well it's just not about the actual components prices, say if a km84 takes 1h longer to assemble that adds up if you're doing productions in a large scale.

It still have to be quite allot more expensive then the Km184 for it to make sense making both.

I'm with you though, the km84 is far superior and is one of my favorites
Old 3rd September 2018
  #17
Lives for gear
 

All this is how I came to appreciate the Bock microphones more and more.
The "built to a sound" slogan, isn't just a slogan.

Just like Wes Dooley/AEA Ribbons, those two mic guys are the real deal. Mr. Neumann would've been proud. Funny how you never hear anyone trying to mod their Bock/Soundelux or AEA microphones.

In fairness (if you cherry pick), there are still some classics in the current
Neumann line (as you guys know!)

I totally agree, KM84 and U47 (as best they can) etc. reissues, is a great idea.
Chris
Old 3rd September 2018
  #18
Gear Nut
"THEY" would sell far more KM 84's than the bigger mics, and easier to produce as well.
Old 3rd September 2018
  #19
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If they ever reissued the KM86, THEE "Motown vocal microphone", that'd be way cool too! Chris
Old 3rd September 2018
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6_Three View Post
"THEY" would sell far more KM 84's than the bigger mics, and easier to produce as well.
I'm not sure how many studio owners wanting to shell out 3k for a Sdc pair. I would bet that market is quite small. Which im quite sure a pair will end up around.

The whole highend market is super small. But its more about Neumann showing that they are THE top mic brand releasing their reissues. I bet the tlm line etc is where the big bucks lie.
Old 3rd September 2018
  #21
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the only thing 'superior' in the km84 is the smoother hf behaviour - other than this, i much prefer the km184, especially the digital version...
Old 3rd September 2018
  #22
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 View Post
Why would they really care if they just made less km184? There was a solid premise behind the design change but sometimes things don’t work out for everyone. The companents are marginally more expensive with the 84. Very marginally. I would actually be surprised for them to hit people over the head that much for it, and also be so out of line with the vintage market, but you never know. 2G is well OVER the price of vintage. You can get a U47fet at a street price that’s well UNDER vintage cost.

The 67 and 87 prices make a lot of sense, difference wise. There is a whole other piece of hardware involved; the high quality PSU. And then the additional price of the cabling, modest addition of tube price, and it’s not crazy that it winds up at the price it does. It’s not just so they don’t lose sales on the 87!

It’s all hypothetical anyway. :-)
Well, I admit I'm just speculating on their motivations as I know little to nothing about the internal workings of Neumann. But it's a pretty common practice in many industries to intentionally make different product lines not overlap(Corvette has to have a better 0-60 number than a Camaro so we don't lose any of those people that would by the more expensive Corvette for its 0-60 time) with each other so as to maximize sales. Of course this rule is broken here and there. And I'm not even going to argue the thinking is sound. But this strategy certainly exists and is used widely.
Old 4th September 2018
  #23
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Plush's Avatar
The modern successor to the KM84 is the Beyerdynamic MC930.
Old 4th September 2018
  #24
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

I think in general, if people are going to own one Neumann, it's going to be a big one. Not a KM-anything.

Also, while I love the KM84, a couple years ago when I rented a couple 84's for a Christmas church thing, I think it was a mistake. Everything else was modern transformerless Neumanns, and as spots the 84's were a bit of a mismatch. I wouldn't be surprised if pro classical recordists (who do it a lot more than I do) feel the same way.
Old 4th September 2018
  #25
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skybluerental's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I think in general, if people are going to own one Neumann, it's going to be a big one. Not a KM-anything.

Also, while I love the KM84, a couple years ago when I rented a couple 84's for a Christmas church thing, I think it was a mistake. Everything else was modern transformerless Neumanns, and as spots the 84's were a bit of a mismatch. I wouldn't be surprised if pro classical recordists (who do it a lot more than I do) feel the same way.
I record classical string ensembles from time to time and have in the past owned KM184s and now own KM 84s.

In my opinion the KM 84s are FAR superior mics in almost any application.
KM 84s are more natural, smoother and need almost no EQ most of the time.

By contrast KM 184s are slightly edgy in the upper mids and more strident.
They do not have the beautiful, balanced buttery top end like KM 84s.

I cant think of one source I would rather have a KM 184 to record aside from maybe bee farts because of its hotter output.
Old 4th September 2018
  #26
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skybluerental View Post
I cant think of one source I would rather have a KM 184 to record aside from maybe bee farts because of its hotter output.
I don't think I said anything about 184's, and there's no bee gigs on the calendar, but that's good to know.
Old 4th September 2018
  #27
Lives for gear
In defense of the 184, it made an acoustic guitar sit in busy mix better than any other mic I own. Even though I typically hate it for solo acoustic.
Old 4th September 2018
  #28
Gear Nut
Still, I think it would be a great option to bring back, as the KM84 IS the standard that most modern mics are compared to.
Old 4th September 2018
  #29
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6_Three View Post
Still, I think it would be a great option to bring back, as the KM84 IS the standard that most modern mics are compared to.
Most modern cardioid pencil condensers, maybe. Even back then, though, I would've rather had a Schoeps.
Old 4th September 2018
  #30
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Don't know about the Beyer, but definitely Schoeps (CMC5/6x) or DPA/B+K
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