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Old 2nd August 2018
  #1
Gear Head
 

Hi end monitors

Hi all! I’ve started the process of upgrading my monitors... thinking about it! As always choosing monitors is no easy task. I’ve had my heart set on ATC SCM25s, but I would love some alternatives to think about. Not worried about opinions, just some suggestions. I’ll be upgrading from 0300s

Obviously at this price range the micromains cannot be ignored. I’ve worked on them plenty of times and find them to be a very reliable speaker, plenty loud too! I’ll check out PMCs offerings at this price range too, just anyone feel free to shout some other brands I may have missed! Cheers
Old 2nd August 2018
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackanory View Post
Hi all! I’ve started the process of upgrading my monitors... thinking about it! As always choosing monitors is no easy task. I’ve had my heart set on ATC SCM25s, but I would love some alternatives to think about. Not worried about opinions, just some suggestions. I’ll be upgrading from 0300s

Obviously at this price range the micromains cannot be ignored. I’ve worked on them plenty of times and find them to be a very reliable speaker, plenty loud too! I’ll check out PMCs offerings at this price range too, just anyone feel free to shout some other brands I may have missed! Cheers
Haven't mentioned which country you are in... normally I'd not bring that up but certain brands vary wildly in price based on country and of them, for ATC, PMC, and Barefoot that's definitely true. A lesser Barefoot speaker in the US falls in the price class of a larger ATC and PMC over the pond, for instance (import tariffs, taxes, currency exchanges, distributor tax/cut, etc.)

Are you looking around US$8k? (or what is the ballpark for your local currency?)

Also at what distance are you going to position these (ballpark it) from you? 1-3ft, 3ft to 5ft, etc.
Old 2nd August 2018
  #3
Gear Head
 

Thanks for the quick reply! I’m in London. The SCM25s retail here for abojt 7k GBP. Barefoots depends on the era but I don’t mind buying used. 10k is too much but 7 ish is doable!
Old 2nd August 2018
  #4
Gear Head
 

And to clarify I’m using them strictly at a near field distance of a few feet.
Old 2nd August 2018
  #5
mrc
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If you never heard a lipinski system, you should before deciding. The 505 paired with 2 proper subs could be a killer system.
Old 2nd August 2018
  #6
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Around 7k GBP/pair,
PMC don't offer anything to compete with the ATC 25a (there's the twotwo8 in that price range which really doesn't compete)
The Barefoots in your price range (mm45 and mm35) don't compete either. (here's where the country factor comes in as if you could be looking at mm27/26, there'd be some competition)
Genelec 8260A is worth a listen at $6.5k GBP/pair
Quested V3110 and V2108 at or less than $6.5k GBP/pair are worth a listen. (3-way vs 2-way)
Old 2nd August 2018
  #7
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If you are looking at Genelec 8380a, then definitely take a look at 8351a / 8341a (aka "The Ones") as well. Their whole "point-source" or co-axial thing can make a big difference at near-field listening distances, and Genelec's SAM and GLM software and hardware tools include built-in room compensation / calibration, AES inputs, and the SAM kit comes with a mic and optional ($85) remote volume knob. It's pretty killer. I'm listening at 2m and the point-source thing was a very noticeable difference compared to my 2-way Dynaudio AIR15 setup. The room calibration thing is like having SonarWorks built into the speakers, which of course can be bypassed, but can really help in a troublesome or less than ideally treated room. I do like to use a subwoofer for low end extension though, and that might push the price of The Ones beyond what you want to spend. Still, they're worth a look perhaps.
Old 2nd August 2018
  #8
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Thanks for all the suggestions everyone, it all helps !
Old 2nd August 2018
  #9
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To be clear, the Genelec 8260A is coaxial as well (mid and tweeter), uses GLM kit/AutoCal/SAM, and can play louder and lower than the 8351/8341. It makes it a better all-arounder for full frequency response.
Old 3rd August 2018
  #10
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charlieclouser's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
To be clear, the Genelec 8260A is coaxial as well (mid and tweeter), uses GLM kit/AutoCal/SAM, and can play louder and lower than the 8351/8341. It makes it a better all-arounder for full frequency response.
That's why I put "point source" in my description as well, to make clear that the important difference between 8260a and "The Ones" is that The Ones, in theory, have the sound sources' axes aligned, as opposed to the more traditional tweeter-above-woofer setup on the 8260a and other two-way setups. In Genelec's marketing and documentation they use the term co-axial to signify this important difference, and do not refer to conventional two-way designs as co-axial. In Genelec-speak, co-axial seems to mean "shared axes".

Some users have praised this type of design and claimed that it improves stereo imaging and depth over conventional designs, but what I noticed most was not stereo stuff as much as a wider and higher sweet spot - moving my head around doesn't result in the feeling of moving in and out of the line of fire of the tweeters as much as it does with conventional two or three-way designs, especially at close distances. Maybe this is because of the "wave guide" stuff that Genelec is doing with the aluminum cabinet, maybe it's because of the "point source" thing, but whatever.... to me, that was a very noticeable difference.
Old 3rd August 2018
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlieclouser View Post
That's why I put "point source" in my description as well, to make clear that the important difference between 8260a and "The Ones" is that The Ones, in theory, have the sound sources' axes aligned, as opposed to the more traditional tweeter-above-woofer setup on the 8260a and other two-way setups. In Genelec's marketing and documentation they use the term co-axial to signify this important difference, and do not refer to conventional two-way designs as co-axial. In Genelec-speak, co-axial seems to mean "shared axes".

Some users have praised this type of design and claimed that it improves stereo imaging and depth over conventional designs, but what I noticed most was not stereo stuff as much as a wider and higher sweet spot - moving my head around doesn't result in the feeling of moving in and out of the line of fire of the tweeters as much as it does with conventional two or three-way designs, especially at close distances. Maybe this is because of the "wave guide" stuff that Genelec is doing with the aluminum cabinet, maybe it's because of the "point source" thing, but whatever.... to me, that was a very noticeable difference.
Important thing that you get with coaxial point source design are much more controlled directivity and less skewed reflections, which contribute alot to the perception of natural sound, because reflections are more evenly frequency distributed along all if the axis abd therefore sound comes to you less coloured.
Old 3rd August 2018
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlieclouser View Post
That's why I put "point source" in my description as well, to make clear that the important difference between 8260a and "The Ones" is that The Ones, in theory, have the sound sources' axes aligned, as opposed to the more traditional tweeter-above-woofer setup on the 8260a and other two-way setups. In Genelec's marketing and documentation they use the term co-axial to signify this important difference, and do not refer to conventional two-way designs as co-axial. In Genelec-speak, co-axial seems to mean "shared axes".
Side-stepping marketing/branding of "The Ones", the 8260A is a 3-way speaker. There are two drivers in that "tweeter" position.

In many ways, the difference in design between "the Ones" and the 8260A is only the woofer design with the Ones having above and below elliptical woofers and the 8260A having one woofer below. But in neither case does the woofer(s) share the axis with the tweeter and mid (and, quite frankly, it doesn't matter acoustically due to the crossover frequency - 490Hz - and the distance between drivers.)

I think we may be on slightly different wavelengths here in describing Genelec's coaxial speakers but the Ones and the 8260A are in the same category more than they are not. At the end of the day, the 8260A and the 8351 use the exact same HF/MF coaxial driver. (120 mm Coax Al-cone with 19 mm Coax Al-dome)




If you want the 8351 with more low-end reach (and overall output), you want the 8260A. Possibly no subs will be required after that (of course room volume will still be a deciding factor)
Old 3rd August 2018
  #13
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AlexK's Avatar
 

SCM20s + a sub can be a really amazing combo.
Old 3rd August 2018
  #14
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackanory View Post
Thanks for the quick reply! I’m in London. The SCM25s retail here for abojt 7k GBP. Barefoots depends on the era but I don’t mind buying used. 10k is too much but 7 ish is doable!
Go along to KMR or The Studio Shop - both have good monitors in that price bracket to try.

The Geithain 944K are in that price bracket (on demo in The Studio Shop and at KMR on request - KMR have larger and smaller models on demo).

There is a good PMC in that price bracket (I think both KMR and Te Studio Shop have these).

The ATC is also a goodie.

Go along and listen and then try your very short list in your own space - both KMR and The Studio Shop can arrange this.
Old 3rd August 2018
  #15
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octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackanory View Post
Hi all! I’ve started the process of upgrading my monitors... thinking about it! As always choosing monitors is no easy task. I’ve had my heart set on ATC SCM25s, but I would love some alternatives to think about. Not worried about opinions, just some suggestions. I’ll be upgrading from 0300s

Obviously at this price range the micromains cannot be ignored. I’ve worked on them plenty of times and find them to be a very reliable speaker, plenty loud too! I’ll check out PMCs offerings at this price range too, just anyone feel free to shout some other brands I may have missed! Cheers
I went an auditioned the SCM25's as well as all of the other options from 7-10k and ended up buying the Kii Three's.
Old 3rd August 2018
  #16
Gear Head
 

Again thanks for the suggestions! Yes I will be taking a trip to KMR, they even let you oh take them home for a week which helps! The Kii’s afe too pricy for me... 7k is a stretch but doable.
Old 3rd August 2018
  #17
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackanory View Post
Again thanks for the suggestions! Yes I will be taking a trip to KMR, they even let you oh take them home for a week which helps! The Kii’s are too pricy for me... 7k is a stretch but doable.
£7k? Then D&D 8c's should be just within your reach (assuming we're speaking ex. VAT prices here). At least audition them or you will regret it, I'm afraid. I use mine as nearfields too.
Old 3rd August 2018
  #18
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Pindos's Avatar
 

Hi Jackanory,
the ATC SMC25s are awesome speakers, and if you are also going to check PMC, you will see they don't have a similar sized three way speaker, which makes comparing a bit hard. The AML2 were great and could compete depending on the room they were in, but they were 2 way, and not available anymore. I haven't heard the two two 8 but they are totally different than the AML's so I can't say anything sensible about that. The smaller two two's I have heard, they are no match for the SMC25s.
I have heard the IB1s next to the ATC's in the same room though, and although IB1's are physically larger, they are more in the same ballpark. If they will work in your room at nearfield distance, you should try out yourself. With the IB1 and SMC25 next to each other you hear clearly the different characters of the two brands. They are both fantastic, but you will surely prefer one over the other as they are quite different in character.
Good luck,

Michiel
Old 7th August 2018
  #19
I was confronted with the same decision ca. 3 years ago and had a friend and HighEnd distributor who lent me ATC25, Neumann 410, Genelec 8260, Baerefood 27 and Genelec 8531 for a whole week.

After several days of A/B/C/D/E listening comparisons (by using 2 daisy chained ULN-8 DA as my switching device) in two rooms (15 sqm/ 36 sqm) I decided clearly for the 8531 and 8260. They were by far the most precise and very pleasant in sound for my ears. Especially the mid/high range was fantastic, the bass on the 8531 was incredibly crisp and tight. And yes , I love the form factor and its super heavy rock solid design. I used both with Genelec´s SAM room calibration set in my -already well prepared- listening rooms.

However, everyone has different ears and listening habits that develop over the years and decades. I also know some people that the Genelecs mentioned here were a bit too clinical and preferred ATC ( but not the 25, because its not full range) .

In terms of the overall package, especially because of the really good - not perfect - calibration possibilities of the Genelec SAM series, I find the 8260 and 8351 extremely good. I've never looked for another monitor since I made my decision. 8260 and 8351 are highly professional, great-sounding monitors that are fun and very precise.

btw: I had Dynaudio Air 12 and Neumann KH300 before.
Old 8th August 2018
  #20
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charlieclouser's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensoniq View Post
I was confronted with the same decision ca. 3 years ago and had a friend and HighEnd distributor who lent me ATC25, Neumann 410, Genelec 8260, Baerefood 27 and Genelec 8531 for a whole week.

After several days of A/B/C/D/E listening comparisons (by using 2 daisy chained ULN-8 DA as my switching device) in two rooms (15 sqm/ 36 sqm) I decided clearly for the 8531 and 8260. They were by far the most precise and very pleasant in sound for my ears. Especially the mid/high range was fantastic, the bass on the 8531 was incredibly crisp and tight. And yes , I love the form factor and its super heavy rock solid design. I used both with Genelec´s SAM room calibration set in my -already well prepared- listening rooms.

However, everyone has different ears and listening habits that develop over the years and decades. I also know some people that the Genelecs mentioned here were a bit too clinical and preferred ATC ( but not the 25, because its not full range) .

In terms of the overall package, especially because of the really good - not perfect - calibration possibilities of the Genelec SAM series, I find the 8260 and 8351 extremely good. I've never looked for another monitor since I made my decision. 8260 and 8351 are highly professional, great-sounding monitors that are fun and very precise.

btw: I had Dynaudio Air 12 and Neumann KH300 before.
That is good to hear. I've been on Dynaudio AIR for years, and I had a similar reaction to the 8351a and SAM setup in my room. SAM really made a big difference and the calibration process was painless and quick.
Old 29th September 2018
  #21
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
£7k? Then D&D 8c's should be just within your reach (assuming we're speaking ex. VAT prices here). At least audition them or you will regret it, I'm afraid. I use mine as nearfields too.

Hi! Thanks for all your responses, all very helpful!!

I went down to KMR and they were refurbishing! Hahaha so I couldn’t demo anything. Another time...

Since then the Dutch & Ductch have been mentioned a few times by friends also. I also really really like the look of them. Not that it matters loads... but they’re beautiful.

The only thing that concerns me (like many) is the latency...... does this translate into a real world problem? I don’t actually intend to do much tracking with them, but I do utilise a fair bit of acustica plugins which add a fair amount to system latency anyway, combine this with further latency on my speakers will this become noticeable during automation?

Also my other question is a monitor controller. Does such a thing exist for the 8c? Digital controllers seem thin on the ground and shelling out for the crane song seems like a waste when buying monitors with their own dac!
Old 29th September 2018
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackanory View Post
The only thing that concerns me (like many) is the latency...... does this translate into a real world problem? I don’t actually intend to do much tracking with them, but I do utilise a fair bit of acustica plugins which add a fair amount to system latency anyway, combine this with further latency on my speakers will this become noticeable during automation?
Latency is not an issue for me, so I cannot comment on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackanory View Post
Also my other question is a monitor controller. Does such a thing exist for the 8c? Digital controllers seem thin on the ground and shelling out for the crane song seems like a waste when buying monitors with their own dac!
What do you want from a monitor controller? In case you only need level control while using the built in DAC you can choose an external digital controller, such as Lake People DAT RS 05 (Lakepeople | Produktseite), digital level control from an ADDA converter/router such as Lynx Hilo, or control through the web app on a phone or tablet. Otherwise you can choose analog level control as well. Conversion in the 8c's is very transparent.
Old 30th September 2018
  #23
Gear Head
 

Thanks for throwing me some suggestions!!

Well the avocet would be perfect. So besides level it would be nice to have an alt monitor selection, mono, phase and L/R mute switches. I mean the entire functionality of the avocet is spot on but I just feel it would be a waste of money as obviously it has very high quality DA as well as a very high quality analog side... which would all be unused with monitors like the D&D...

Perhaps it will be better for me to look at remotes for something like the RME interfaces (as I also need to upgrade my interface)?
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