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Focal Clear vs Sennheiser HD800S
Old 20th April 2019
  #31
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b0se's Avatar
Hi DG,

Did you try Sonarworks? Makes a big difference. Although judging by your opening statement (preferences) it doesn't surprise me that the Senns are your pick (without calibration).

That's a good amp. I've been through quite a few over the years and settled on, and love, the Violectric V281.
Old 20th April 2019
  #32
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I can't even believe how much better Sonarworks makes the HD800's sound, especially in the higher latency, linear phase mode. I listened to dozens of tracks across genres for a few weeks while trying the demo, and once your ears adjust to the stark difference, there's really no going back - not a single track sounded better without it. They sound bad without Sonarworks, in comparison...I'm a convert for sure.
Old 20th April 2019
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
Hi DG,

Did you try Sonarworks? Makes a big difference. Although judging by your opening statement (preferences) it doesn't surprise me that the Senns are your pick (without calibration).

That's a good amp. I've been through quite a few over the years and settled on, and love, the Violectric V281.
One of the reasons I have not gone that route (yet) is the issue of a portable reference, not just for use within the DAW or at my home studio.

The Systemwide function adds latency at the operating system level and even then, you are only fixing that particular system. Additionally it does not currently support ASIO.

Systemwide vs Reference plug-in – Sonarworks FAQ

For the time being, I am going to attempt to calibrate my ears, because I can take those, and the headphones, wherever I go.

Thank you for the pointer to the Violectric V281, I will take a close look at that!
Old 20th April 2019
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by over-man View Post
I can't even believe how much better Sonarworks makes the HD800's sound, especially in the higher latency, linear phase mode. I listened to dozens of tracks across genres for a few weeks while trying the demo, and once your ears adjust to the stark difference, there's really no going back - not a single track sounded better without it. They sound bad without Sonarworks, in comparison...I'm a convert for sure.
Thanks for the feedback. I'm sure that I will eventually give it a try, but maybe I should wait for a portable headphone amp that has the Sonarworks style of compensation built in with DSP of some sort. Sounds like a product idea to me.
Old 20th April 2019
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalGrease View Post
Thanks for the feedback. I'm sure that I will eventually give it a try, but maybe I should wait for a portable headphone amp that has the Sonarworks style of compensation built in with DSP of some sort. Sounds like a product idea to me.
The SPL Phonitor 2 has hardware crossfeed emulation which works well. Very good amp. Preferred the V281 though, sound wise. It drives any headphone you connect to it wonderfully.
Old 20th April 2019
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalGrease View Post
One of the reasons I have not gone that route (yet) is the issue of a portable reference, not just for use within the DAW or at my home studio.

The Systemwide function adds latency at the operating system level and even then, you are only fixing that particular system. Additionally it does not currently support ASIO.

Systemwide vs Reference plug-in – Sonarworks FAQ

For the time being, I am going to attempt to calibrate my ears, because I can take those, and the headphones, wherever I go.

Thank you for the pointer to the Violectric V281, I will take a close look at that!
I understand your points, but there's only so much you can do to "calibrate" your ears when it comes to monitoring. It fundamentally changes the tone and feel of the headphones in a profound way that's hard to go back from. The texture of sounds comes more in line with proper monitors as well. While it's a shame that it can't be added to field recorders, etc., when I can I bring a laptop with Sonarworks installed along with me, then do a quick dump of files during soundcheck just to see what I'm working with. Beats not being able to accurately judge the sound of a mic when I'm making mic or placement decisions without proper studio monitors. On the question of latency, I've never seen a hit on my systems that would warrant not using Sonarworks, even when I'm rendering massive 360 videos at the same time I'm mixing. I do have pretty beefy systems though.
Old 21st April 2019
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by over-man View Post
I understand your points, but there's only so much you can do to "calibrate" your ears when it comes to monitoring. It fundamentally changes the tone and feel of the headphones in a profound way that's hard to go back from. The texture of sounds comes more in line with proper monitors as well. While it's a shame that it can't be added to field recorders, etc., when I can I bring a laptop with Sonarworks installed along with me, then do a quick dump of files during soundcheck just to see what I'm working with. Beats not being able to accurately judge the sound of a mic when I'm making mic or placement decisions without proper studio monitors. On the question of latency, I've never seen a hit on my systems that would warrant not using Sonarworks, even when I'm rendering massive 360 videos at the same time I'm mixing. I do have pretty beefy systems though.
To speak from the other side of the coin. Andrew Schepps has mixed entire records with Sony 7506 headphones and does not use or like sonarworks due to the changed frequency response and unnaturalness of the sound. There is no right way, you absolutely can learn and calibrate your ears to a headphone as Andrew Schepps has done. Funnily enough due to not being able to mix in a treated room I bought focal clears to mix with having not used them before and without using sonarworks or can opener. Mixed an album, took it to the mastering engineer who was using kii 3’s imagining there would be many problems and he barely made any changes at all. Each to their own.
Old 26th April 2019
  #38
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I own both as my main pair of headphones and go back and forth between them when mixing. Making a decision on which to pick is quite difficult as they are quite different. Driving both from the Sennheiser HDVD 800 amp both with balanced cables.
The HD800S are like a magnifying glass on everything except the bass. I don't love the correction of Sonarworks on the HD800s very much. Sounds too drastic and would probably prefer an EQ bass bump as some have described. As previously mentioned the 800s won't give you a great picture of the subs, however once learning to listen more instead of feel, it can really help make sure that the audible bass is present. I'm also now trying to get a grip on using something like Span to place my sub and just trust it as a helper.
On the other side the Focal Clear don't have any of the high end detail (check their freq graph to see its extreme dips in the high mids/ highs), so its the complete opposite, I can't really refine my higher mids and highs usually resulting in a little too much top end in my mixes. Also I find the low end slightly muddy. Although having said that, they sound much more amazing than any sub$1000 headphone closed or open and I've collected quite a few pairs...
I have done mixes I really like with both headphones. I like having both. If I had to choose one I'd be really hard pressed.
I probably would take the 800s just because of their amazing soundstage and imaging. But if you really need to have your subs don't get em. You'll be frustrated.
edit: Just Demo'ed https://goodhertz.co/canopener-studio This is fantastic for the 800s
Old 27th April 2019
  #39
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Resolution Mag headphones test. Focal Clear Pro named as their favourite
https://issuu.com/resolutionmag/docs..._april_2019/26
Old 27th April 2019
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazeltine View Post
I don't love the correction of Sonarworks on the HD800s very much. Sounds too drastic and would probably prefer an EQ bass bump as some have described.
Did you try Sonarworks with the "linear phase" mode engaged rather than the low-latency mode? I think it makes a big difference in the overall quality of sound. I'm starting to sound like a Sonarworks fanboy here, but the difference it makes on the H800s is so extremely positive for me, on every song in every genre, that it's hard to believe others don't have the same experience. We all hear differently though! From my perspective, it does things to the sound and texture of the headphones that I don't think any EQ bass bump could achieve.
Old 27th April 2019
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by over-man View Post
Did you try Sonarworks with the "linear phase" mode engaged rather than the low-latency mode? I think it makes a big difference in the overall quality of sound. I'm starting to sound like a Sonarworks fanboy here, but the difference it makes on the H800s is so extremely positive for me, on every song in every genre, that it's hard to believe others don't have the same experience. We all hear differently though! From my perspective, it does things to the sound and texture of the headphones that I don't think any EQ bass bump could achieve.
I have and I do own it. I find it works magically on the HD600/650 which I also have. I just find it changes the curve so much more than the 600/650.
Like for me it's the equivalent of using the speaker calibration on the NS-10s. They are famous weather they work for you or not for sounding a certain way. So I feel some corrections work better than others.
I have enjoyed the correction on the HD800S more when I've backed off on the mix knob to say around 60/40. And to your point I'll most likely definitely try it again one day as my perspective on what I hear changes.
Although must say I've purchased the Goodhertz since my last post and really enjoying that, till I change my mind again one day and again prefer Sonarworks.
Old 28th April 2019
  #42
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Update: RNHP vs Solaris vs Jotunheim

Edit:

Too many changes at once in my setup. The HD800S are still my personal favorite for headphones, but the headphone amp comparison is being revisited.
==================================
Revisited:

Multiple changes to my system. I have gone to dual monoblock amplifiers and have added multiple power filters to the system.

To make a long story even more tedious perhaps, the upshot is that I need to use a filter on each piece, each monoblock and even the headphone amp. Once I did that, I have audiophile nirvana. I am back at 192k and my ears have un-clenched.

Cross contamination of individual power supplies is a thing worth looking at.

==============
Another update: With so many changes in my system and the resulting increase in resolution, the Schiit Jotunheim is beginning to show some weakness. I had hoped to use it as a preamp/monitor controller as well as headphone amp. Unfortunately, the direct connection from the Apollo x16 to the speaker amps is noticeably more transparent. It looks as though I will need to be looking at the SPL or something similar in the future....

These power filters have really cleaned things up in my noisy environment.

For those interested in the (not connected to me in any way) power filters:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Last edited by DigitalGrease; 29th April 2019 at 10:45 PM.. Reason: Updated
Old 29th April 2019
  #43
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b0se's Avatar
Interesting that the Apollo/CC2 combo reaches Solaris levels at 96K. The CC2 worked wonders on the Trinnov ST2, although I've since moved to fully digital so the only conversion is via the Kii Three's. 96K is my preferred sample rate here too (LIO-8 3D, ST2 & CC2).

Glad you're enjoying the Schiit. Great bang for your buck it seems.
Old 29th April 2019
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by over-man View Post
I can't even believe how much better Sonarworks makes the HD800's sound, especially in the higher latency, linear phase mode. I listened to dozens of tracks across genres for a few weeks while trying the demo, and once your ears adjust to the stark difference, there's really no going back - not a single track sounded better without it. They sound bad without Sonarworks, in comparison...I'm a convert for sure.
I totally agree with you. The idea of using headphones for mixing without Sonarworks is absurd. None of them are flat anyway, so quality detail is more important and a custom calibration with good amp.
Old 29th April 2019
  #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
I totally agree with you. The idea of using headphones for mixing without Sonarworks is absurd. None of them are flat anyway, so quality detail is more important and a custom calibration with good amp.
Compare the frequency graph of any good headphone with the measurements of speakers in any average studio ...

IMHO even without Sonarworks, the headphones will play more linear than 90%
of monitors in a room - even with average acoustic treatment.

Thats a reason why I do a part of my mixing on headphones.
Usually on a HD800 - which I compensated a little by ear and measurements.

Though I love my HD800...Id like to have an alternative.
Already had the K812 and Aeon flow open...but wasnt quite happy with them.

Tempted to order the Focal Clear - thats why I came to this topic
Old 29th April 2019
  #46
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spaceman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazeltine View Post
...
The HD800S are like a magnifying glass on everything except the bass. I don't love the correction of Sonarworks on the HD800s very much. Sounds too drastic and would probably prefer an EQ bass bump as some have described. As previously mentioned the 800s won't give you a great picture of the subs, however once learning to listen more instead of feel, it can really help make sure that the audible bass is present. I'm also now trying to get a grip on using something like Span to place my sub and just trust it as a helper.
On the other side the Focal Clear don't have any of the high end detail (check their freq graph to see its extreme dips in the high mids/ highs), so its the complete opposite, I can't really refine my higher mids and highs usually resulting in a little too much top end in my mixes. ..
I own the 800 ( the original , not the S ) and use them with Sonarworks , and have tried the Clear which I liked a lot. Out of the box, the Clear sounded flatter, very close to an 800 with Sonarworks.
However, I agree with you on the magnifying glass aspect of the 800 without Sonarworks on, and to me this might be their advantage over something like the Clear.
They are like two headphones in one :
1-Use them with Sonarworks when you're mixing/mastering, and they will give you a "flatter" experience with still superb resolution.
2-Use them in "microscope" mode without Sonarworks when you need to pick up extra details and solve and repair all sorts of hiss/clicks/hums/etc that you wouldn't always be able to pick up with the Clears.
Old 29th April 2019
  #47
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b0se's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tremolux View Post
Tempted to order the Focal Clear - thats why I came to this topic
Lots of talk regarding the Clears that you may find interesting in the mastering headphone thread.

What are your favorite headphones in the mastering room.

Start from the back.
Old 29th April 2019
  #48
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by trubshaw View Post
Resolution Mag headphones test. Focal Clear Pro named as their favourite
https://issuu.com/resolutionmag/docs..._april_2019/26
But did they actually test the HD 800 ?

It says HD 800, but the picture shows black headphones - that is the HD 800S which are different headphones from the 800.
Old 30th April 2019
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
I totally agree with you. The idea of using headphones for mixing without Sonarworks is absurd. None of them are flat anyway, so quality detail is more important and a custom calibration with good amp.
It’s not absurd. This is exactly what Andrew Schepps does. No correction to headphones when mixing. I also found this myself having had an album mastered that was mixed on focal clears then mastered on kii 3’s and there were barely any changes.
Old 30th April 2019
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by kedbear View Post
It’s not absurd. This is exactly what Andrew Schepps does. No correction to headphones when mixing. I also found this myself having had an album mastered that was mixed on focal clears then mastered on kii 3’s and there were barely any changes.
I know my statement was strong but I guess I was speaking for myself...but I still think if you or Sheps had sonarworks custom calibrated for your phones and had the option of using it, it's highly likely you would use it...that you can get good results without is kudos to you, maybe you would get even better with sonarworks...sound like a fanboy I know...
Old 30th April 2019
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
I know my statement was strong but I guess I was speaking for myself...but I still think if you or Sheps had sonarworks custom calibrated for your phones and had the option of using it, it's highly likely you would use it...that you can get good results without is kudos to you, maybe you would get even better with sonarworks...sound like a fanboy I know...
Andrew Schepps has tried Sonarworks and crosstalk in headphones but stated he preferred it without, that he could hear the processing, and that his mixes translate really well to speakers after using the sony 7520. I also own Sonarworks but found that the change was so strong it didn't sit well with me. I also remember listening to a radiohead track off the new album with sonarworks on the clears and the snare just sounded wrong. Turned sonarworks off and the snare sounded natural again, so that kinda did it for me. I also found that the change sonarworks made to my speakers didn't sound like the change it made to my clears. The clears got a lot brighter with sonarworks, my speakers didn't really. I haven't been able to test sonarworked focal clears next to kii 3's but the fact the mastering engineer had so little to do on my entirely mixed on focal clears record speaks to the fact that something must be working so i'm reluctant to change it now! I haven't tested sonarworks thoroughly, i've not mixed through Sonarworks, i guess i just don't have much incentive to at the mo.
Old 30th April 2019
  #52
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It doesn't matter what someone else uses. FWIW AS got used to those cans years ago, long before Sonarworks was out, so it seems logical why he prefers them raw.
Old 30th April 2019
  #53
Quote:
Originally Posted by kedbear View Post
Andrew Schepps has tried Sonarworks and crosstalk in headphones but stated he preferred it without, that he could hear the processing, and that his mixes translate really well to speakers after using the sony 7520. I also own Sonarworks but found that the change was so strong it didn't sit well with me. I also remember listening to a radiohead track off the new album with sonarworks on the clears and the snare just sounded wrong. Turned sonarworks off and the snare sounded natural again, so that kinda did it for me. I also found that the change sonarworks made to my speakers didn't sound like the change it made to my clears. The clears got a lot brighter with sonarworks, my speakers didn't really. I haven't been able to test sonarworked focal clears next to kii 3's but the fact the mastering engineer had so little to do on my entirely mixed on focal clears record speaks to the fact that something must be working so i'm reluctant to change it now! I haven't tested sonarworks thoroughly, i've not mixed through Sonarworks, i guess i just don't have much incentive to at the mo.
I dont particularly like the sound of sonarworks and especially waves NX - but my mixes are a lot better when using them...thats the point - not whether you can hear the processing.

I have to be honest citing the opinion of uber mix celebrities with decades of experience and the highest skill-set in the world-I'm not sure it can be considered the gold standard of useful information for everybody now days.

Tiger Woods could probably play better golf with a stick than I could with an expensive club. This doesn't mean I should use a stick for golf. Plus Tiger Woods is increasingly sponsored by a forestry commission promoting woodland areas.
Old 30th April 2019
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
I dont particularly like the sound of sonarworks and especially waves NX - but my mixes are a lot better when using them...thats the point - not whether you can hear the processing.

I have to be honest citing the opinion of uber mix celebrities with decades of experience and the highest skill-set in the world-I'm not sure it can be considered the gold standard of useful information for everybody now days.

Tiger Woods could probably play better golf with a stick than I could with an expensive club. This doesn't mean I should use a stick for golf. Plus Tiger Woods is increasingly sponsored by a forestry commission promoting woodland areas.
Haha.

I just think it's an important part of the conversation, and i actually think it's really important in todays culture to mention Shepps approach. We can be so inclined to think we need the best gear, the best this and that. Andrew Schepps is refreshing because he has a pretty down to earth approach and goes against a fair bit of the 'pro advice' and opinions found on gearlsutz regarding what you need to make good mixes. Rather than going from headphone to headphone to headphone he has one $99 set that he has learnt and that's it, and i feel there's a lot to be said for that and value in bringing it up. There are a lot of people on here saying you can't mix with headphones and many reasons why it's not possible etc, but you can and people do and that's a fact.

I agree, hearing the processing isn't about whether we like it or not or whether we can hear it, it's about what helps you make the best mixes. For me if i'm listening to a snare and it sounds unnatural and doesn't translate with sonarworks it's making it harder to mix not easier. My uncorrected clears translated really well into mastering so for now that's good for me.
Old 3rd May 2019
  #55
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Got my LCD2s (rev 2) in 2014. Got Sonarworks Reference and Waves NX in 2017 plus I calibrated the LCD2s as well. That cost me $300 in total, but worth it, since calibration is down to +/- 0.9dB. That's mastering level calibration. Let's just say Sonarworks removes any coloration from the LCD2. It does remove some of its midrange warmth, but that doesn't matter if you're mixing as you need an accurate and exact image of what it is you're mixing. Waves NX simulates a well treated and expensive recording studio room rather well. I couldn't live without it.

I did want to do some room treatment lately, but if my mixes work well enough on the LCD2s then it's probably good enough and I can delegate the funds to building a nice demountable vocal booth with my powercage (the one I use to do squats/deadlifts/bench press with). I have plenty of space in the powercage, and I could actually build a decent vocal booth from that using 85mm thick insulation panels plus a skyline diffuser on one side.
Old 5th May 2019
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
Interesting that the Apollo/CC2 combo reaches Solaris levels at 96K. The CC2 worked wonders on the Trinnov ST2, although I've since moved to fully digital so the only conversion is via the Kii Three's. 96K is my preferred sample rate here too (LIO-8 3D, ST2 & CC2).

Glad you're enjoying the Schiit. Great bang for your buck it seems.
I have updated my earlier post regarding the Schiit Jotunheim, I had hoped to use it both as headphone amp and preamp/monitor controller for my main speakers, but the increased resolution in the system is showing some weakness in the Schiit. The direct monitor outputs of the Apollo x16 to the amplifiers is quite a bit clearer than the Schiit. At the price difference, I would hope so.

It looks like I will need to take a serious look at your suggestion of the SPL or similar in the future.....
Old 5th May 2019
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalGrease View Post
I have updated my earlier post regarding the Schiit Jotunheim, I had hoped to use it both as headphone amp and preamp/monitor controller for my main speakers, but the increased resolution in the system is showing some weakness in the Schiit. The direct monitor outputs of the Apollo x16 to the amplifiers is quite a bit clearer than the Schiit. At the price difference, I would hope so.

It looks like I will need to take a serious look at your suggestion of the SPL or similar in the future.....
If you're getting into SPL Phonitor 2 price ranges, be sure to check the Violectric V281 out. Better in every way imo. Built like a tank too.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #58
one more vote for Violectric.

I have the HPA V100 here and its working great with my HD800 - and any other Headphone

I did blind tests with several headphone amps - in the 500,- € range.
The HPA V100 was my favorite ...though the differences were very subtle between the amps.
Old 6 days ago
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by over-man View Post
I can't even believe how much better Sonarworks makes the HD800's sound, especially in the higher latency, linear phase mode. I listened to dozens of tracks across genres for a few weeks while trying the demo, and once your ears adjust to the stark difference, there's really no going back - not a single track sounded better without it. They sound bad without Sonarworks, in comparison...I'm a convert for sure.
I somehow landed in this thread while looking for info on good, custom fit, in-ear monitors, and just had to chime in the Sonarworks thing. First, to the OP, don't get either. Get some in-ear monitors. I have to say I don't understand why anyone would want to use open back headphones for mixing. They are the worst of all worlds. You have the issues of headphones having drivers that are not pointing at the back of your head, but toward the middle of the head, no matter how much they talk about angling the driver, plus you're still stuck with all the problems of room acoustics and if you're mixing in public, everyone around is hearing what you're doing while the outside noise is disturbing your hearing. This is a bizarre trend that I never understood. I can't think of a worse solution. Well, maybe a contraption with belts around your waist and head with a rod up your back and bars that extend from your waist and head belts out to a pair of monitors that are pointed at the back of your head. That would be equally as useless, but a lot more entertaining looking. It could be the 2010s equivalent of the 1980s boom box trend.

But, regarding Sonarworks Reference: First, the product is not great. The systemwide app (at least in the early iterations of Reference v4) cut the system volume in half, so it was pretty much worthless. But the fundamental flaw in the whole concept, whether you're using their average headphone curves, paying for a custom calibration curve for a particular set of cans, or using their microphone based monitor calibration systems is this: they are calibrating to an objective standard and each person has a unique hearing curve. What is needed is graphic EQ calibration plugin that works like the custom grey noise generator here:

https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/gr...eGenerator.php

I think that Chris Johnson at Airwindows would be able to write the cleanest plugin because he knows how to avoid phase issues and the beyond-Nyquist-folding-artifact issue that most other plugin writers ignore. If he were to team up with Chris "Monty" Montgomery, who knows insane things (I can't believe a site called "gearslutz" censored the word sh!t in my post!) like which frequencies the hairs in our ears are tuned to hear, so he would know how many bands and at which frequencies to tune them. Together they could write something that would be truly useful for creating a flat response that takes the equipment, environment, and—the most important and most ignored factor—the listener into consideration. Anything else is just a marketing scam, even if they have good intentions. The guys at Sonarworks are so nice, but they've missed the mark on two key issues. The objective vs. subjective issue and the package vs. profile pricing model. If they gave the host away and sold the profiles for $10 a piece, they would make a lot more money. They would add the consumer market to their customer base like what Waves have done with NX, and a lot of students and beginners with limited budgets could afford the product and keep buying new profiles as they upgrade their gear. Like I said, they are super nice guys, and I've talked with them about these issues, but, sadly, they are too far down their rabbit hole to see common sense.

I would love to get a bunch of gearslutz to write Chris Johnson at Airwindows and request this plugin. His plugins are great (especially DeEss), and donationware. Send him some love and ask him for something that really does what Sonarworks Reference attempts to do.
Old 6 days ago
  #60
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by xaosnox View Post
Like I said, they are super nice guys, and I've talked with them about these issues, but, sadly, they are too far down their rabbit hole to see common sense..

Well, a quick visit to their site shows that they listened, but still miss the mark. Their consumer product is €79! And it comes with a customisation tool, but it's not based around getting a flat frequency response unique to your hearing and devices. It's basically a super expensive EQ. Sad. They just don't get it. I don't think they'll be around long. Especially if we can get Chris to write us something useful.
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