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Looking for a specific Lexicon PCM sound in a new product Reverb/Delay Processors (HW)
Old 9th June 2018
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Looking for a specific Lexicon PCM sound in a new product

Hello all, I hope I'm posting this question in the right forum.

I've grown weary of buying classic gear on eBay or Reverb, due mostly to damaged equipment arriving via UPS/FedEx etc. Unfortunately, used Lexicons never show up locally.

To avoid this headache, lately I have been buying new gear from local shops. If they don't have it in stock and have to order it, I'd rather deal with the shop than the couriers.

So, I'm asking for suggestions for new gear that can get the PCM 80 sound heard here (Gothic Pad patch) at 2:09? *I don't know why the YT video below isn't starting at 2:09, apologies.*



Thank you to everyone that replies.
Old 9th June 2018
  #2
Lives for gear
There are only a few choices for current good rack gear that have the mixture of lush verb, tremlo, and delay.

M7
Eventide units, current flagship is FW8000 (They may have a new one out)
Lexicon 96

They would all be able to get that sound. None of them are cheap.

To keep your costs down, A use PCM80 is the right thing. it will cost you much more to get that sound new and current and racked in a single box.

Perhaps the Eventide eclipse will be good enough. I would suggest looking into the eclipse as a starting point.
Old 9th June 2018
  #3
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IanBSC's Avatar
Eventide's have a lot of presets similar to Gothic Pad. Bricasti cannot do that sound, and PCM92 can sort-of, but isn't great. They don't have a good preset like that, although they do have pitch shifting delays/reverbs/resonators.
Old 9th June 2018
  #4
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IanBSC's Avatar
Man, now I want a PCM80 and these presets.
Old 10th June 2018
  #5
Gear Nut
 

I think these are all PCM81 presets? You might have to play a while before you get them out of a PCM80. Sounds like there's a pitch-shift going on which would need an extra algorithm card for the PCM80.
Old 14th June 2018
  #6
Gear Nut
 
researchtriangle's Avatar
 

Snagged a p e r f e c t PCM81 on ebay a few months back for like $400 It showed up loose in a cardboard box with barely any shipping materials - when I opened it up I got that sinking feeling. Incredibly it's been flawless, other than having to spray some contact cleaner in the programmer knobs.

Having to return broken stuff is painful, but there are some things you can look for with PCM units. For example, a common issue is that the input meters will peg even when no signal is being passed. If the photos show the unit powered on with the meters in view, then you can verify that that won't be an issue. That being said, I'm still stuck with a PCM70 that has a sneaky issue on only a handful of presets, so maybe your fears are justified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IanBSC View Post
Eventide's have a lot of presets similar to Gothic Pad.
Also I'd say this is correct. I have an Orville and while there's a lot of PCM81 ground it doesn't seem to cover, the Gothic Pad thing does sound very Eventideish.

Last edited by researchtriangle; 14th June 2018 at 04:23 AM..
Old 14th June 2018
  #7
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The PCM 81 is a relatively low risk "vintage" purchase. As long as the screen is bright and clear, it should be good to go. I've had a number of PCM 80's and 81's and while a PCM 80 with the extended memory (40+ seconds of delay) and the Dual FX card is a very flexible beast, the 81 is probably easier to find. As someone else pointed out, the 81 does include some of the Pitch Card FX and therefore can do some sounds out of the box that you can't get on the 80 without the added cards.

I had a PCM 92 for a while and given the other reverbs I had around, it didn't see much use. I seemed to fall back on the 80 or 81 more than the 92 for a more modern Lexicon sound (versus the 480L) or the M7 for a cleaner more transparent reverb. YMMV. There's certainly a lot of folks that love the PCM 92/96/sw versions a lot.
Old 23rd June 2018
  #8
Here for the gear
 

I would like to thank everyone that replied, it is greatly appreciated - and the responses informative.

A PCM 81 just sold on eBay for ~$800. I was not the winner unfortunately. I wonder if this thread had garnered extra interest, essentially pricing myself out of the item?

I'll keep looking out for used units ~$500. If I can't find one, I'll go with the Eventide Eclipse.
Old 25th June 2018
  #9
Here for the gear
I personally like the Lexicon PCM91. I love the classic look of the blue display lights and just over all the way it looks and sounds!

The Lexicon PCM96 (NEW) is currently $2999 at Sweetwater. Very nice, but unfortunately out of your price range, and mine too. I just can't justify paying $3,000 when I already own the Lexicon PCM Native plugin, AND I own the Lexicon224 inside my UAD Apollos, AND I own all 5 of the Valhalla DSP plugins.

Since the Lexicon PCM80 is a "Digital" processor, it technically should not sound any different that the official Lexicon Native Plug-in. The plugin is currently $499 at Sweetwater, but I've seen it on sale on other websites for less (especially during Black Friday or Cyber Monday - if you're willing to wait until November).

Lexicon PCM Native Effects Plug-in Bundle | Sweetwater

If you already own the Universal Audio Apollo (which new are $2,500 ---- but you can find as low as $700 - $1,000 used). I bought 2 Apollo's myself, one new and 1 used and I personally really like the sound of the all the various high end plugins you can buy for it. But anyways you can get the Lexicon224 reverb plugin that is designed specifically for use inside the UAD Apollo. It may not have the exact effects of the PCM80, but it's an official Lexicon reverb and does sound really good.

Lower priced, but REALLY GOOD sounding, I also own all 5 of the Valhalla DSP reverb plug-ins and they are only $50 each - All of them sound GREAT! but again, not exactly as the Lexicon PCM80. You might be able to get close with lots of tweeking the parameters.

Valhalla DSP - Plugins

If you REALLY WANT the physical Lexicon PCM80, then my best suggestion is just save up a couple hundred MORE so that you can buy a real physical Lexicon PCM80 on Ebay in EXCELLENT CONDITION - Just save up the money and WAIT until you find one used in EXCELLENT condition. Ask the seller questions about it's condition. Look at the photos. When I look for vintage gear I typically look for wording like ... "smoke free studio" ... "only 1 owner" ... "no scratches" ... "still have original packaging" ... "works perfect no issues" ... And if it's everything I want then I'll just "BUY IT NOW" to avoid loosing that rare chance to buy the Excellent Condition gear! If you are all-around into vintage gear you may want to consider investing in a Weller wes51 soldering iron, and begin reading up (free) online tutorials how to fix electronics, which is not as difficult as you first think. It is possible with a little studying and a little patience for the average person to replace capacitors and other internal parts that can typically be found "NEW" on Ebay. I have replaced capacitors on vintage gear, so I know first hand that's it's not all that difficult. I may even purchase a Lexicon PCM91 just because I love those vintage blue display lights, but if I do I will wait until one shows up in EXCELLENT condition.
Old 25th June 2018
  #10
Lives for gear
or just get a Lex 300 and be able to do it ALL in one ...
Old 26th June 2018
  #11
Lives for gear
I had the PCM80 once. And my only other reverb was an M5000. I could never get the drums to sound like PCM70 reverb with the PCM80. So the M5000 became my drum verb and the 80 was used for vocal/guitar delays and whatever. Never quite had the verb I wanted. The 70, 300 & 480 all have the something extra you want on plate and reverb. The 70 is mono in, so you need two units and 4 returns if you want to use the PCM70 in stereo.
Old 26th June 2018
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanBSC View Post
Man, now I want a PCM80 and these presets.
Still have one, great patches....
Old 26th June 2018
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitsmith View Post
or just get a Lex 300 and be able to do it ALL in one ...
Oh no, the 300 has a much better reverb, but no crazy chorus stuff at the same time as the killer reverb.

The PCM 80 has 2 DSP's, one for modulation, and one for reverb.
Old 26th June 2018
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisewagon View Post
Oh no, the 300 has a much better reverb, but no crazy chorus stuff at the same time as the killer reverb.

The PCM 80 has 2 DSP's, one for modulation, and one for reverb.
sure it does - two completely independent engines - you can use them independently or chain them .... and use them for any algorithm you can think of using
Old 29th June 2018
  #15
Gear Nut
 
researchtriangle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Algebra Suicide View Post
A PCM 81 just sold on eBay for ~$800. I was not the winner unfortunately. I wonder if this thread had garnered extra interest, essentially pricing myself out of the item?
Also, depending on what your needs really are - PCM80 seems to consistently go for significantly less than PCM81.
Old 29th June 2018
  #16
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by researchtriangle View Post
Also, depending on what your needs really are - PCM80 seems to consistently go for significantly less than PCM81.
Because the extra cards are rare and a bit inconvenient.

Studiocare has a PCM81 for £645 inc VAT

Search results for: 'PCM81'
Old 5th July 2018
  #17
Gear Maniac
 

If you don't mind the software route, get the PCM Native - the algos are exactly the same as the hardware units. Instead of running on a DSP chip they simply run on your CPU. Don't buy new, buy used - used software can't get damaged by couriers. Here's one link on KVR which the seller has listed for $180. Some have sold for as low as $150 recently.

FS: Lexicon PCM bundle, Various Slate (Topic in the 'Sell & Buy (+Special Offers, Deals & Promos)' forum) | KVR Audio Forum
Old 5th July 2018
  #18
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[QUOTE=Algebra Suicide;13361626]Hello all, I hope I'm posting this question in the right forum.

I've grown weary of buying classic gear on eBay or Reverb, due mostly to damaged equipment arriving via UPS/FedEx etc. Unfortunately, used Lexicons never show up locally.

To avoid this headache, lately I have been buying new gear from local shops. If they don't have it in stock and have to order it, I'd rather deal with the shop than the couriers.

So, I'm asking for suggestions for new gear that can get the PCM 80 sound heard here.

Well you can ask Italo or?

I am going to tell you a little secret and from someone with multiple Reverb and FX units Vintage to Modern. The PCM 80/81 units come in 4 different versions and these are in the PCM-80 expandable to 42 seconds of Stereo Delay and Dual FX and Pitch FX cards (Not Vocal Pitch) are crucial in realising the full experience of the PCM-80 in the 81 there are different units. Honestly it matters not which one you get as the 81 has some Pitch/Pitch FX and other card Algorithms though only 20 seconds stereo delay. The 80’s 42 Stereo or 88 seconds of mono Stereo Delay is far more useful.

Better then that the Lexicon 41/42/93/95/97/60/70/80/81/90/91 range are Drop Tested! Yes you read correctly! They drop them prior to packing them 2-3 Feet off a table. Once they light up they’re signed off. The worst thing that could happen to a PCM-80/81 shippped from eBay is something becomes unseated. With 2 main PCB’s an auto switching power supply there’s not too much else to go wrong here.

There’s a great story on here how Gary Hall once dropped a PCM-42 three stories high to the road? Yeah, it survived with a few dings!

Just make 100% certain your unit being purchased has software 1.10 as then it will take any card. Do not buy version 1.01 cards except Vocal Pitch (they only came in 1.01) and these actually are amazing when used properly! I can not understand why these units never took off save - they’re the Professionals secret weapon! No the 80/90 and 91/81 are nothing the same as each other simply the 80 was to be called the Primetime 4

Sadly due to the Prime Time Cart in the 480L upgrade-that never happened had it of eventually been named the “PrimeTime 4” confusion wouldn’t be reign here.

PCM-91 does Algorithms from the 224XL- 200-300-480L which ones...well you must use your own judgment here as it uses a much faster processing chip and different Lexichip. Why ones at 20 bit (90/91) and the 80/81 At 24 bit go figure coding I’d say! Still AES and SPDIF and Analog in and two sets of Outputs...Magic!

PCM-80/81 does reverberation Algorithms from the 70/80 and from the PrimeTime to PCM 41/42 and more minus the full Reverb Engine. Add the cards you’ll get a huge reward be warned though if you loathe programming don’t get deep effects units. You’ll just sound like everyone else not Italo!

Personally I prefer the 91/81 as with hard AES, Analog, and S/PDIF spare Analog Outs x 2 and control functionality you’ve got 6 inputs and outputs remember this was when the Eventide 4000 was released and Lexicon were punching hard back. Competition often produces the best FX units!

Buy one off EBay or Reverb.com you’ll be protected no matter what! Don’t get too prickley here...I also have had an ex USA install company send me a pcm-81 in a huge cardboard box no packing...across the globe I plugged it in perfect, I looked inside perfect and it goes to show just how much these units can take Northern Hemisphere to Sothern!
Regards,
TheLastByte
Old 5th July 2018
  #19
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Algebra Suicide View Post
I would like to thank everyone that replied, it is greatly appreciated - and the responses informative.

A PCM 81 just sold on eBay for ~$800. I was not the winner unfortunately. I wonder if this thread had garnered extra interest, essentially pricing myself out of the item?

I'll keep looking out for used units ~$500. If I can't find one, I'll go with the Eventide Eclipse.
Nooooooo!
Don’t you’ll end up in a mess! Why? Every cool Algorithm is at 96kHz and the H3000 ones especially it’s had its day! I advise strongly don’t buy one, others will disagree though if you want the 3000 sounds they’re not here!
TLB
Old 9th July 2018
  #20
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastByte View Post
Well you can ask Italo or?
TheLastByte: I sincerely appreciate your extremely informative replies! I was unaware that the 'Gothic Pad' patch was actually a creation by Italo de Angelis, and not a Lexicon PCM81 preset. Such as the case, I have broadened my search to include the Lexicon PCM80, as it appears more often on eBay and Reverb. Of course, if the special algorithm cards are required for the proper functionality of Italo de Angelis' libraries, I will have to limit my search for strictly the PCM81. I would rather not have to purchase both a used PCM80 and the algorithm cards. I'm assuming that the PCM units accept MIDI sysex, and that is how you download the libraries created by Italo de Angelis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastByte View Post
Nooooooo!
Don’t you’ll end up in a mess! Why? Every cool Algorithm is at 96kHz and the H3000 ones especially it’s had its day! I advise strongly don’t buy one, others will disagree though if you want the 3000 sounds they’re not here!
TLB
If an Eventide Eclipse (or other aforementioned units) can get close enough to the 'Gothic Pad' preset, I would be happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
There are only a few choices for current good rack gear that have the mixture of lush verb, tremlo, and delay.

M7
Eventide units, current flagship is FW8000 (They may have a new one out)
Lexicon 96

They would all be able to get that sound. None of them are cheap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanBSC View Post
Eventide's have a lot of presets similar to Gothic Pad. Bricasti cannot do that sound, and PCM92 can sort-of, but isn't great. They don't have a good preset like that, although they do have pitch shifting delays/reverbs/resonators.
Thank you elegentdrum and IanBSC: I wasn't able to find any YT videos with either the Lexicon PCM92 or Bricasti Model 7 showcasing similar sounds to the 'Gothic Pad' preset in my initial post; however, it very well could be possible that both units can produce a similar sound. I am not against purchasing either one of those items if they are capable. Unfortunately, the closest music store to my present location has neither item in stock for me to test. So far, I am drawn to the Eventide products (notably the Eclipse), as they seem to have the "ethereal" vibe I'm aiming for:



Quote:
Originally Posted by 310electro View Post
The Lexicon PCM96 (NEW) is currently $2999 at Sweetwater. Very nice, but unfortunately out of your price range, and mine too. Since the Lexicon PCM80 is a "Digital" processor, it technically should not sound any different that the official Lexicon Native Plug-in.
Thank you 310electro: I was unaware of the Plug-In option. Very intriguing!


Quote:
Originally Posted by researchtriangle View Post
Also, depending on what your needs really are - PCM80 seems to consistently go for significantly less than PCM81.
Thank you researchtriangle: Being that the 'Gothic Pad' patch in my initial post was actually created by Italo de Angelis rather than a Lexicon preset, I will definitely keep any eye out for the PCM80 (if algorithm cards are unnecessary)!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hired Goon View Post
If you don't mind the software route, get the PCM Native - the algos are exactly the same as the hardware units.
Thank you Hired Goon: Indeed, I may follow your suggestion.
Old 16th September 2018
  #21
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Algebra Suicide View Post
Hello all, I hope I'm posting this question in the right forum.

I've grown weary of buying classic gear on eBay or Reverb, due mostly to damaged equipment arriving via UPS/FedEx etc. Unfortunately, used Lexicons never show up locally.

To avoid this headache, lately I have been buying new gear from local shops. If they don't have it in stock and have to order it, I'd rather deal with the shop than the couriers.

So, I'm asking for suggestions for new gear that can get the PCM 80 sound heard here (Gothic Pad patch) at 2:09? *I don't know why the YT video below isn't starting at 2:09, apologies.*



Thank you to everyone that replies.


Maybe late to this party...

"Gothic Pad" is a bit of a twisted one. Most pitch/delays efx use the shifters' internal delays which obviously will cause pitch to raise or drop, with repetitions. This one doesn't as the shifters feed the delays and then a great Lexicon Plate reverb.
Can other units do exactly the same?
The big Eventide, yes, but you need Vsig work. Eclipse can't. The pedals... forget them.
Pcm92/96 can't... and no, their algorithms are not the same as the 8x/9x series. The plugs don't do this as well.
So? So your quick and cheap path is either a PCM80 w/Pitch FX card or a PCM81.

More about what's in the thread...
-Lexicon 300
sure, you can do amazing to extreme chorusing on it! The Dual Delays algorithm (actually an unique string of 6 series AND parallel delays never available on any other Lexicon) can do some unbelievable modulation efx.
They just need to be programmed.

The PCM80/81 is a stunning piece of processing hardware. What you hear in the presets doesn't make any justice to the machine. It has a spectacular series of internal parameters modulators and up to 8 pivot points in each single modulator>parameter patch (10 of them available in a preset!) that allow the user to create things impossible on any other unit... unless you go Orville/H8000. Glide modulation on the PCM is unique if deeply explored and a lot more stuff is in there.
For the prices these units go these days... it's nonsense to even look somewhere else. I added an 81 to my 80... and boy, those 2 together can do some amazing damaged beauty!

Old 16th September 2018
  #22
Lives for gear
 

Well yes and No!

That is a specific program and the PCM-80 actually is an almost synthesis of an effects unit almost unsurpassed since it’s intoduction and they sold thousands so of the 6 pcm 80 variations all six using 1.10 software do the same thing, whilst an H8000 will get you there it’s not going to at the crazy PCM-80 S/H prices. These units aren’t valued why? Programming is too deep! Ergo an H8000 is deeply powerful and minus Visig programming that heady!

Buy the Prime Time 6 PCM 80 install the 42 seconds of delay and your done! In 10 years these will be the PCM41/42 people lust after trust me on that! The H3000 exploded that way...so just wait, them Lex 300 is sleeping too! These a the most simple digital effects units made!



Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
There are only a few choices for current good rack gear that have the mixture of lush verb, tremlo, and delay.

M7
Eventide units, current flagship is FW8000 (They may have a new one out)
Lexicon 96

They would all be able to get that sound. None of them are cheap.

To keep your costs down, A use PCM80 is the right thing. it will cost you much more to get that sound new and current and racked in a single box.

Perhaps the Eventide eclipse will be good enough. I would suggest looking into the eclipse as a starting point.
Old 16th September 2018
  #23
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Masterful Information and again....people wonder why DAW systems can’t cut thru here, why...they (Plug In’s) can’t do what Italo is discussing and if they could you’d have a stereo paired track it would require so much processing...yet talk Digital Front End and honestly people go into the deepest minutiae regarding Clocking and Front End...In Mixing and Dynamics to Effects to Acoustics its the same....yet still vastly overlooked why? Shiny graphic GUI that look easy, nothing worthwhile is so simple or easy! Zero!

The Advice is here, yet....
Blah!
I’m breathless!
Thank you Italo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by italo de angelis View Post
Maybe late to this party...

"Gothic Pad" is a bit of a twisted one. Most pitch/delays efx use the shifters' internal delays which obviously will cause pitch to raise or drop, with repetitions. This one doesn't as the shifters feed the delays and then a great Lexicon Plate reverb.
Can other units do exactly the same?
The big Eventide, yes, but you need Vsig work. Eclipse can't. The pedals... forget them.
Pcm92/96 can't... and no, their algorithms are not the same as the 8x/9x series. The plugs don't do this as well.
So? So your quick and cheap path is either a PCM80 w/Pitch FX card or a PCM81.

More about what's in the thread...
-Lexicon 300
sure, you can do amazing to extreme chorusing on it! The Dual Delays algorithm (actually an unique string of 6 series AND parallel delays never available on any other Lexicon) can do some unbelievable modulation efx.
They just need to be programmed.

The PCM80/81 is a stunning piece of processing hardware. What you hear in the presets doesn't make any justice to the machine. It has a spectacular series of internal parameters modulators and up to 8 pivot points in each single modulator>parameter patch (10 of them available in a preset!) that allow the user to create things impossible on any other unit... unless you go Orville/H8000. Glide modulation on the PCM is unique if deeply explored and a lot more stuff is in there.
For the prices these units go these days... it's nonsense to even look somewhere else. I added an 81 to my 80... and boy, those 2 together can do some amazing damaged beauty!

Old 17th September 2018
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitsmith View Post
or just get a Lex 300 and be able to do it ALL in one ...
Don't tempt me dude
Old 20th September 2018
  #25
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by italo de angelis View Post
Maybe late to this party...

"Gothic Pad" is a bit of a twisted one. Most pitch/delays efx use the shifters' internal delays which obviously will cause pitch to raise or drop, with repetitions. This one doesn't as the shifters feed the delays and then a great Lexicon Plate reverb.
Can other units do exactly the same?
The big Eventide, yes, but you need Vsig work. Eclipse can't. The pedals... forget them.
Pcm92/96 can't... and no, their algorithms are not the same as the 8x/9x series. The plugs don't do this as well.
So? So your quick and cheap path is either a PCM80 w/Pitch FX card or a PCM81.
Thank you so much for your response. I knew I wanted that particular sound, then found out it was from a patch library you created - now I just need to buy a PCM 81!
Old 20th September 2018
  #26
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italo de angelis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Algebra Suicide View Post
Thank you so much for your response. I knew I wanted that particular sound, then found out it was from a patch library you created - now I just need to buy a PCM 81!

Well...
consider a Lex3000 can't do that, nor other expensive machines!
A PCM81 will get you there quickly... and you can get one pretty cheap these days! It'll do so many things you will question why you didn't get one sooner.
Trust me!
Old 20th September 2018
  #27
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by italo de angelis View Post
Well...
consider a Lex3000 can't do that, nor other expensive machines!
A PCM81 will get you there quickly... and you can get one pretty cheap these days! It'll do so many things you will question why you didn't get one sooner.
Trust me!
really? not just by adding some pitch shift and feedback?? sounds like it would be do-able ... i've done a few 'shimmer' type presets like that on my 300 ...
Old 21st September 2018
  #28
Lives for gear
 
italo de angelis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitsmith View Post
really? not just by adding some pitch shift and feedback?? sounds like it would be do-able ... i've done a few 'shimmer' type presets like that on my 300 ...
Yep.
Shimmer is exactly the opposite of my "Gothic Pad". Re read how it works and look at the algorithms signal flow in the 300 and the PCM81 Dual-Plate and you'll see the big difference. The 300 simply can't do it.
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