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Eventide H8000 vs H9000
Old 20th May 2019
  #31
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIEcho View Post
9. No new algorithms/presets -just a repackaging of other talented designer's work (of course, this is planned to change, but I'll wait).
Your analysis of the current situation with the H9000 is excellent. The only slight correction is that the 1.1 update did bring the new Instant Phaser, Flanger, and SP2016 algorithms.

For my H9000, I added the Dante and MADI cards so the routing issues are lessened, but you made a fair point there. Can't route the output of one FX Chain to the input of another currently. But you can create some crazy setups within a single FX Chain - much more than what a single H8000 could do.

I can see the arguments for sticking with the H8000s if you already have them. I didn't, so I jumped directly to the H9000 and expect things to improve over time. So far, so good.
Old 20th May 2019
  #32
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ionian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIEcho View Post
8. Many hardware revisions in a short time since it's release
I'd expect software revisions, but what has been changed on the hardware side?

Quote:
I could have a brand new, full-featured one for 4750, but am still opting out at this point.
It's obvious you have some kind of a connection to Eventide so seeing the cost price quoted makes me feel like not dropping the $7k for one when you see how much less it is at cost.

I've had money set aside for an H9000 but I've also had my eye on a pair of the mastering pultecs as well. I think I'll just go for those, instead.
Old 23rd May 2019
  #33
Here for the gear
 
AdamIEcho's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyborgssc View Post
Your analysis of the current situation with the H9000 is excellent. The only slight correction is that the 1.1 update did bring the new Instant Phaser, Flanger, and SP2016 algorithms.

For my H9000, I added the Dante and MADI cards so the routing issues are lessened, but you made a fair point there. Can't route the output of one FX Chain to the input of another currently. But you can create some crazy setups within a single FX Chain - much more than what a single H8000 could do.

I can see the arguments for sticking with the H8000s if you already have them. I didn't, so I jumped directly to the H9000 and expect things to improve over time. So far, so good.
Thank you.

Actually, as stated, it's in my best interest if the H9000 would blow the H8000FW out of the water, and I'd love to see that day.
Unfortunately, that day is *not* today, particularly where sonics are concerned.

On principle, it seems that in it's current state, the H9000 should've been offered to tried-and-true industry professionals at a significantly discounted rate, in exchange for feedback, and assistance in development. Basically, the way it's structured now, people are paying full retail to be beta testers.

In plain language, it's difficult not to see this is an early-adopter's "beta" release, somewhat marketed and (most importantly) priced as a full, prime-time premier.

That being said...
Your decision to purchase an H9000, not having had H8000s will definitely step things up for you, as this device is obviously not a doorstop by any stretch. Had you sold your H8000s for an H9000, the upgrade wouldn't be as clear as 7k should make it.

"oldgearguy" also has a point, however. At a certain point, being able to have less stuff and get more mixes completed without fussing around too much is essentially it's own form of currency. If he has a tactile and aesthetic connection with the H9000, and it's getting things done for him in a way his double-H8000FW and Eve/Net did (or better), that's worth celebrating. I don't see someone listening to the end product (with a myriad of other things to consider) and pinpointing the use of an H9000 over an H8000FW.

What also needs to be understood at the fundamental level, importance of the analog stage in a processor besides the math that takes place after it. This point was both articulated and driven home here on this forum by Italo, where he compared signal processed through a PCM-81, versus the same signal converted A to D via the Lexicon 300 on the front end.

I have both machines here and was able to re-conducted the test myself yielding the same outcome:
Going through the frond-end of the 300, and passing the audio post-A/D to the PCM via AES/EBU is "bigger"/greater than going through the PCM's A/D alone.

Listen to "Breathing Canyon" on the H3000, and then listen to it on the H8000FW... Same math, different analog stage, different outcome.

H3000 = character for days
H8000FW = clean, big, and open expression of the same algorithm

Problem with the 9000 is that the analog stage is *gutted*, so it's not about how it's analog gain stage sounds, as they've simplified that debate immensely by removing it...
There's only the math, bringing you dangerously close to plug-in territory. This is fine if you are into plug-ins, but once again, not, in my estimation, a "7k" type of "fine".

Having the ability to use the preamps to push on the effects is a nice touch in a variety of situations. For guitarists, they could go DI on the H8000FW, where here, they are directed to purchase a separate DI after spending 7k on this machine. Oh, and in case they were fans of the "Custom Scales" bit, they are also expected to pretend those didn't exist as well, because porting that over was just, "too much for too little" at the end of the day, where the administrators were concerned. Sorry if there's a bit of spice on that last statement, I am trying to keep this post in "black and white".

The H8000FW has a great front-end, whereas the H9000 requires one. At this point, you've got a -10/+4 option on the menu.
My Boss SE-70s have similar switches on the back.

H8000FWs are "anything-to-anything", where routing is concerned.
Here, you've already added on 2 cards, on top of the base price (of course MADI/Dante etc., are not options on the H8k).

As far as new algorithms, yes, I know they are forthcoming, and was aware of the 1.1 release.
However, this essentially supports my initial claim, as the new algorithms are the "Instant Phaser/Flanger" and "SP2016".

That's like getting a new president, and it's just Regan's taxidermied body, wheeled out on a, "Silence of the Lambs" inspired podium with a speaker in his chest that plays his "greatest hits". Sure, he's can now stay put as we try to hit a mini-golf ball into his mouth (in v.1, he would've moved, obviously, owing to his superior "analog stage"), but there's nothing essentially "new" about the message, nor much at all *practical* about spending time whacking golf balls at him. You can hit the ball into the clown's mouth at the end of mini-golf courses in any state already, without going through the above desecration of an ex-president's corpse, no-less the expenditure of time and money that such an undertaking necessitates.

I do hope that this will all be behind us in the relatively near future, and the H9000 will be the H8000FW's superior on all fronts, eradicating the need for whatever it is I just wrote to essentially close this response. I can only give you information, and share my perspective.

Whatever you use, use it well and make great things.
Companies won't simplify our lives -we need to do that ourselves.

Information is only that... It becomes knowledge when applied through personal experience.
That experience, over time, with practice becomes wisdom.

With wisdom, we understand, and see the simplicity in all things.

I'm working on it, just like everyone else here.

-Adam.

Last edited by AdamIEcho; 23rd May 2019 at 03:19 PM.. Reason: Better articulation of a point.
Old 23rd May 2019
  #34
Here for the gear
 
AdamIEcho's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
I'd expect software revisions, but what has been changed on the hardware side?



It's obvious you have some kind of a connection to Eventide so seeing the cost price quoted makes me feel like not dropping the $7k for one when you see how much less it is at cost.

I've had money set aside for an H9000 but I've also had my eye on a pair of the mastering pultecs as well. I think I'll just go for those, instead.
At the end of last year, the hardware was already on Revision "G".

I do not want to speak to those specifics, but the general information was up on the Eventide forum.

As far as connection with the company, I'd like to leave that off the table, and avoid having that add or detract from what I'm sharing here. I'm just here to discuss some facts, while remaining both objective about certain current realities, and at the same time, being supportive of the 9000's development.

It's success will be our success, and maybe seeing this conversation will give the right people the bug to fortify the platform.

Mean-time, give Steve your money, and he will give you a set of Mastering EQs from another dimension.
His head is in a good place, and he deserves every bit of success he's got with Pulse.

I will do the same, once I've raised enough to do so.

Speaking of which, it was the mention of the H8000FW I have listed on Reverb that got me into this discussion in the first place...
Anyone here who may purchase it, has my thanks for bringing me a step closer to the acquisition of an EQM-1S3 pair.

To wrap up for now, let me just say I hope my presence here has been an asset to the forum, as the forum has been an asset to my work.
I've been reading posts here for years, and have learned a great deal using the information presented to kick-start my own research into many items of interest.
Some of the people on this very thread have really brought a lot of good things to the table over time.

So, a general thanks to all -keep at the process of creation; it's a wonderful thing.

I'll keep an eye on this thread, and do my best to come in and out as time allows.

-Adam.
Old 23rd May 2019
  #35
Gear Nut
 
jondoe1972's Avatar
 

Eventide has stated on their own forum that customers were shipped an “F” or “G” revision. Revision “A” to “E” referred to their own internal pre-release prototypes.

The differences between “F” and “G” are minor and completely indistinguishable to the end customer. Supposedly the changes are more technician friendly.

Board revisions happen all the time, nothing untoward.
Old 23rd May 2019
  #36
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIEcho View Post
To wrap up for now, let me just say I hope my presence here has been an asset to the forum, as the forum has been an asset to my work.
I definitely appreciate it. This forum is at its best when people bring experience, facts and informed opinion. You're creating a model for this and I hope people take notice.

As for the question about price - the H9000 can be had much, much lower than $7K. Just ask around at your favorite retailers. No connection to Eventide is necessary to get better pricing.
Old 23rd May 2019
  #37
Lives for gear
 

i can see that/why some people who have a h8000 (or several units) hesitate a bit to move to the h9000: for me (owner of two h3500's and an orville), the step seems a bit more 'logical' - actually, the madi interface alone makes it worth upgrading! i don't long for additional presets, except maybe for multichannel rooms/reverbs, preferably up to 7.1.4 (which i doubt however there will ever be any...)
Old 1 week ago
  #38
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AdamIEcho's Avatar
2 H3500s and an Orville = Character and potential; an auditory "Valhalla".

Going to an H9000 from that will be like giving up your real life for a hologram.
It contains the ghosts of it's forebearers inside of a shiny new shell.

If you'll excuse my incredibly juvenile, base-level humor
(Sometimes the lowest way is the most direct way to get the point across)....

They have not yet made a P***y tight enough to ring a holographic d**k to a state of exalted ecstasy.
A real "you-know-what" makes babies, the way your current setup makes music.

I strongly advise you to keep your real magic wand and resist trading it for a laser pointer.

If the H9k was your first purchase, you'd love it.
If you're coming from the sonics of the 3500 and Orville, you will see first hand what you lost in the trade.

Only you can decide if it was worth it.
There is no "right" here, just the facts.

I'm loving my H3500/H8000FW setup to this very day.

The decision is not due to financial limitation -it is based purely on my own listening and experience with these machines over the last 10 years.

If switching works for you, great.
It would be the height of arrogance to debate personal taste, and the top of Mt. Arrogance is over-populated as it is.

Good luck with the decision -it would be great to hear what you went with in the end and how it worked out.
This is what keeps us growing and learning.

-Adam.
Old 1 week ago
  #39
Gear Head
 
pangea2003's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIEcho View Post
2 H3500s and an Orville = Character and potential; an auditory "Valhalla".

Going to an H9000 from that will be like giving up your real life for a hologram.
It contains the ghosts of it's forebearers inside of a shiny new shell.

If you'll excuse my incredibly juvenile, base-level humor
(Sometimes the lowest way is the most direct way to get the point across)....

They have not yet made a P***y tight enough to ring a holographic d**k to a state of exalted ecstasy.
A real "you-know-what" makes babies, the way your current setup makes music.

I strongly advise you to keep your real magic wand and resist trading it for a laser pointer.

If the H9k was your first purchase, you'd love it.
If you're coming from the sonics of the 3500 and Orville, you will see first hand what you lost in the trade.

Only you can decide if it was worth it.
There is no "right" here, just the facts.

I'm loving my H3500/H8000FW setup to this very day.

The decision is not due to financial limitation -it is based purely on my own listening and experience with these machines over the last 10 years.

If switching works for you, great.
It would be the height of arrogance to debate personal taste, and the top of Mt. Arrogance is over-populated as it is.

Good luck with the decision -it would be great to hear what you went with in the end and how it worked out.
This is what keeps us growing and learning.

-Adam.
Have you actually compared the sonics of the h9000 against the oldies??

Otherwise, excuse my also incredible juvenile, base-level humor
but 'talking' is quite cheap nowadays, and the internet is not helping much on this you know..
Old 1 week ago
  #40
Here for the gear
 
AdamIEcho's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pangea2003 View Post
Have you actually compared the sonics of the h9000 against the oldies??

Otherwise, excuse my also incredible juvenile, base-level humor
but 'talking' is quite cheap nowadays, and the internet is not helping much on this you know..
Hi pangea2003.

Yes, I have had the opportunity to do so.

The algorithms on the H9k run wonderfully clean and transparent. that is not where the difference lies, nor where I claim to be able to "hear" differences in millionths of kHz.

This is not about that.

In the previous machines, there is an analog stage which colors the signal on the way in.

On the H3000 family, you simply move an internal jumper for operation at either +4 or -10, and then you have a trim that can attenuate the signal in the "Levels" area.
On Orville/H8000, you have analog preamps with a digitally controlled range from -90 to +30.

Even though the H3000 family does not allow you to boost past 0dB, the Murata filters and Curtis chips invariable color the signal in a way which has kept H3000s active long after the advent of the DSP series, Eclipse, Orville/H8000, and now the H9000.

The Lexicon 480L has a similar analog stage which keeps people coming back despite the PC96, and of course, the Bricasti M7.

It's not just about the math, but the journey the signal takes -how voltage is controlled- through the circuit.

The Orville/H8000 family on the other hand doesn't necessarily add the same "vintage" color, but you have another factor to consider...
You can use the preamps to boost/cut and therefore shape the sound going in-to and out-from the on-board algorithms.
This will cause them to respond differently depending on your personal choices.

The H9000 has the analog stage removed, allowing only a digitally set -10/+4 option.

With no on-board preamp, a guitar cannot be plugged directly in, with the option to boost it's signal by up to 30dB.
If you look inside the H9k, there is more than enough room, so space is not the issue.

The marketing foible is selling the H9000 as (8) x H8000FWs in a single box.
They would be better off marketing this as something completely new, like the DSP series in relation to the H3000 series.

This way, people would keep:

1. their best H3000
2. their best Orville/H8000

and purchase -an H9000 as an addition to the family rather than a replacement.
The H9k definitely has it's place, especially with the new GUI and DAW integration.

The way it's presented, people are led to believe the others (at least the Orville/8000) can be sold to "trade-up" to an H9000, but that is simply inaccurate from a technical standpoint.
Some may be happy with the choice, and that's fine, but the facts should be laid out, regardless of $6999.99 being on the line.

If the company is going to build it (at least in theory) on the back of the H8000, it should be the H8000 + more.
With 8 H8000s, you can route them any way you want, including in series.
Presets, of course, can also be shared seamlessly, where there is no way to "dump" libraries from the H8k to the H9k (you will port them arduously over, to-and-from Vsig, one-by-one). -Of course, this is a non-issue if you never tweak/create your own, or purchase Italo's libraries.

So, it's not really (8) x H8000s in a box. It's a new device, an H9000, that contains most of the H8000 presets, some plug-ins, no preamps, and the promise of other stuff to come.

3 years in, you still can't route 4 FX Chains in series without an external mixer, plug a guitar directly into it without a DI, and you are expected to stream how much audio back and forth on USB2?

As Italo mentioned, we are being sold the ARM processor choice on the basis of it being "user replaceable" down the line, but the RAM is soldered in...

This project, brought properly into focus has immense potential to "tick all the boxes" (as a true 8 H8000FW machine), but as of now, that has not been realized.

Compared to other companies/products of its type, it reigns supreme.
Compared to its potential -I don't know what's going on just yet...

Sonically, if you have the opportunity -try them out side by side.

If you've got an H3000 and an Orville/H8000, try the following:

Load, "Breathing Canyon" on each machine and do a simple A/B listening test. Same math, different path.
Which is better? Depends on your application.

Do they sound different? NOTICEABLY.

H8k to H9k is not noticeably different as in the above example -they sound virtually identical, until you employ the Orville/H8000's on-board analog preamps.
Unfortunately, you cannot do the same on the H9000 -that has been removed in the upgrade.

Point being, despite the same code, one does not replace the other.

They are both top of their game at what they do.

The H9k needs to be sold on it's own merit, in it's own niche, with its own strengths.
If we compare it to the (8) Orvilles/H8000s fundamentally, it's got a way to grow.

It is not (8) H8000FWs... It's not even four parallel pairs of H8000FWs with a mixer.

So, let's just sell it as an H9000, and let people buy it as that.
It will not replace their H3000s, Orvilles and H8000s.

If they want to sell the "old" stuff and get an H9000 instead and are happy with one, that's a different story altogether.
They'll make a profit, and have everything they enjoy in a smaller footprint.

Personally, I'd love it to be a direct upgrade from the H8000FW (and hope they ultimately achieve that), as I've got 3 H8000FWs I can sell.
Put that in one box and add 5 more? Count me in.

My H3500 stays -period. If you've still got one, you know why.

I hope this clarifies my position on the whole thing.

-Adam.
Old 6 days ago
  #41
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oldgearguy's Avatar
 

@ AdamIEcho - the number of different use cases for Eventide's products means that your generalized comments will not apply to a lot of folks interested in Eventide's hardware.

I've owned their gear for a long time and have/had a black face/yellow button H3000, 3000 D/SX, Instant Flanger and Phaser, Omnipressor, SP-2016, and a pair of H8000FW's w. the Evenet remote.

I think we can agree that extensive editing on the 3000 series from the front panel could be challenging. If you're mainly tweaking pitch/delay times in presets, it may not be that big of a deal for you. The Evenet remote made editing on the 8000 easier and the 9000's front panel and/or Emote software makes that the easiest version yet.

I typically run synths/drum machines/samples through my Eventide gear, so the analog front end is less critical to what I want to hear. I have plenty of effects units from Lexicon, Publison, and others to color the sound if I want that. The 9000 gives me 8 analog I/O in 1 box with an easy to access routing and audio configuration (compared to the more convoluted 8000 approach).

The other big factor for me was that support for the 8000 is coming to an end due to lack of parts and simply a finite amount of resources at Eventide. They are a small company (under 70 employees I think) and I don't know how many of those are dedicated to the audio division. Supporting their other hw and sw products also means there's not a huge staff churning out new algorithms and feature (yet) for the 9000.
For me, the change in sound from the 8000 to the 9000 is very very slight and a change I'm happy with once I edited some of the FX chains and removed the additional blocks that seem to have been added to give the input some boost and/or EQ.

Overall, I bought the 9000 for the future. There's already been discussion and acknowledgement that routing from one chain to another internally is desireable and doable and on their roadmap. Same with new algorithms that leverage the full platform capabilities. I appreciate that I was able to pull a pair of 8000's from the rack, drop in a 9000, hook up the cables and continue using and editing and creating customized effects immediately and look forward to where they take this machine over the next few years.

Again - for your particular needs, it may not be the best path to take, but for others it may solve a bunch of their problems and be the right tool for the job.
Old 6 days ago
  #42
Here for the gear
 
AdamIEcho's Avatar
Hey there, "oldgearguy".

I actually referenced you in an earlier post in this thread.

I seriously look forward to being able to do what you have done.
We are on the same page throughout.

In my case, I'm hanging back a bit until things are more settled.

If this was seriously everything the H8000FW was and more, I was planning on getting 2 -one for the studio, one for live.
It's just, at this point, there's more of a give-and-take that I'm not prepared to accept in an "upgrade", and thus, chose to hang on to my H8000FW pair w. Eve/Net, and my "live" H8000FW.

Using the new GUI, freeing up space (and funds), and being able to have less heat issues are just the beginning of what interested me about the H9000.

Keeping the preamps in, and allowing for a transfer of custom presets would already have me in on it.
Going the extra mile and including all the H8K presets would be the least that I'd expect from something sold as (8) H8000FWs.
...or, as stated previously, just start fresh, without reference to their previous platform, encouraging the "addition" of a H9000.

Thunderbolt or even USB3 as standard seemed to be a no-brainer, so the decision to go with USB2 is baffling as of its release in 2016/17.

I'm still on Firewire, and am satisfied.

Do I think there will be a noticeable difference in a mix where sound is concerned?
No.

As you personally stated, there are workarounds, but I doubt anyone would turn their nose up at the H9K's sound anyway.
My comments are solely directed at those who think "trade-in/up", without consideration of certain points that may or may not affect their decision.

Anyone using anything from the H3K or H8K family solo, should just be aware that the H9K is not "everything-and-more", at least currently, but rather a handful of trade-offs that each person has to decide the value of for themselves.

If this new setup works for you, I think that's great.
In both my studio and live setups, there are just things I'd miss about the H8000FW after the trade.

I'm holding onto my optimism that it will at some point (hopefully soon) work for me.

Eventide still rules their niche, no doubt.
There are just some decisions made on this that leave one questioning at best, and suspicious at worst.

Of what?
That cost-cutting may be the true motivation behind the change-over to ARM, rather than the ostensible reasons we are being given.
Upgrade-able processors... Ok, but what about the soldered-in RAM then? I don't know -in my mind it doesn't jive...
I'm open to an honest answer that can square that away though.

I'm all for seeing this surpass the H8K in every way, but for now it's going to have to be Vsig, CF cards, and the little Blue & White Eve/Net screen for me.

I don't want to persuade/dissuade, just clarify the facts to inform those on the fence.
All of this buying and selling takes time, and the more informed we are, the better, so we can get to doing what we really love -making music.

For those who never owned an Eventide -I'm sure you'll enjoy the H9000.
For those considering an upheaval, consider your needs and decide accordingly -"oldgearguy" did it and is happy with the decision- there's no denying that.

I'm personally holding out, at least for now (despite the second-hand H8K market declining).
The H8000FW blew away the H3000 technically, but in mine and many hearts out there, it did not replace it, so we've got both.

Maybe that's where we are now, and possibly will-be going forward...
Only you can decide for yourself.

-Adam.

Last edited by AdamIEcho; 5 days ago at 05:41 AM.. Reason: Grammar; minor typos; small addendum
Old 5 days ago
  #43
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oldgearguy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIEcho View Post
Hey there, "oldgearguy".

I actually referenced you in an earlier post in this thread.

I seriously look forward to being able to do what you have done.
We are on the same page throughout.

In my case, I'm hanging back a bit until things are more settled.

If this was seriously everything the H8000FW was and more, I was planning on getting 2 -one for the studio, one for live. It's just, at this point, there's more of a give-and-take that I'm not prepared to accept in an "upgrade", and thus, chose to hang on to my H8000FW pair w. Eve/Net, and my "live" H8000FW.

Keeping the preamps in, and allowing for a transfer of custom presets would already have me in on it.
Going the extra mile and including all the H8K presets would be the least that I'd expect from something sold as (8) H8000FWs.

Thunderbolt or even USB3 as standard seemed to be a no-brainer, so the decision to go with USB2 is baffling as of its release in 2016/17. I'm still on Firewire, and am satisfied.

As you personally stated, there are workarounds, but I doubt anyone would turn their nose up at the H9K's sound anyway. My comments are solely directed at those who think "trade-in/up", without consideration of certain points that may or may not affect their decision.

Anyone using anything from the H3K or H8K family solo, should just be aware that the H9K is not "everything-and-more", at least currently, but rather a handful of trade-offs that each person has to decide the value of for themselves.

Eventide still rules their niche, no doubt.
There are just some decisions made on this that leave one questioning at best, and suspicious at worst.

Of what?
That cost-cutting may be the true motivation behind the change-over to ARM, rather than the ostensible reasons we are being given.
Upgrade-able processors... Ok, but what about the soldered-in RAM then? I don't know -in my mind it doesn't jive...
I'm open to an honest answer that can square that away though.

I'm all for seeing this surpass the H8K in every way, but for now it's going to have to be Vsig, CF cards, and the little Blue & White Eve/Net screen for me.

I don't want to persuade/dissuade, just clarify the facts to inform those on the fence.
All of this buying and selling takes time, and the more informed we are, the better, so we can get to doing what we really love -making music.

For those who never owned an Eventide -I'm sure you'll enjoy the H9000.
For those considering an upheaval, consider your needs and decide accordingly -"oldgearguy" did it and is happy with the decision- there's no denying that.

I'm personally holding out, at least for now (despite the second-hand H8K market declining).
The H8000FW blew away the H3000 technically, but in mine and many hearts out there, it did not replace it, so we've got both.

Maybe that's where we are now, and possibly will-be going forward...
Only you can decide for yourself.

-Adam.
I tried to consolidate some of your points because I think they are fair and worth a quick discussion.

The pre-amp thing - The edits I was talking about before was mainly removing the clean pre-amp algorithm that was placed first in a lot of the factory FX Chains. I do think that there's a tendency with digital manufacturers to think they're good enough coders to simulate/emulate anything and combine that with some real-world costing decisions led to the removal of the analog stage that was there before. My initial listening *with my input sources* led me to decide that stage changed the sound in a way that did not work for me, so I took them out.

I would also guess that the USB 2 thing was a combination of 'what is most prevalent in the marketplace today' plus 'we already have working code to support this' plus cost factors. On the other hand, the expansion slots do give Eventide the opportunity to provide a card to support additional protocols given enough demand. At this point I think they need more market penetration for the 9000 and getting more feedback to determine what the next expansion card would be (and their forum is pretty forthcoming about considering possibilities from user suggestions, so sign up, log on, and lobby hard for what you want. )

In general, no commercial company is a charity. They make a profit or they go under. I've heard enough stories from people that have worked on console designs (for example) that the bean-counters and engineering staff would get into heated arguments about whether $0.10 shunt capacitors were needed on every channel, so I can imagine a small company like Eventide having to make hard trade-offs to get the 9000 to come in at a particular price point.

Missing algorithms - I too was really bummed about not having a full 8000 set + the extras. Again, on the forum there was acknowledgement that the customers felt let down by this and Eventide is working to get them back in. As a sw developer for 30+ years, I can come up with a lot of explanations why some algorithms aren't there, but it really comes down to a combination of 'we have to ship this thing to generate revenue' and 'these algorithms are a lot harder to port and make sound great than we thought'. Since the missing ones are ones I have used but do not rely on as my main tools, I was OK with that trade-off.

Note that some time soon the next update will be pushed out; no promises of what's in there, but the beta version has some improvements, some new stuff, and of course bug fixes. I think this will be the reality - buy it for what it does now and be comfortable knowing that over time the platform will continue to grow and improve. This should accelerate as the developers get more comfortable coding in the new environment and build up their library of tools.

Since VSig is now fully supported on the 9000, it should be possible to dump your custom presets out and get them into the 9000. Should they make a conversion tool to do it automatically? I think that would be nice, but again do you pull one or more developers off the main line of work to come up with a utility that might make 100 current owners happy and then have to support it on Windows, Mac and across all the OS upgrades, etc? Business reality says no.

FWIW, I've never bought a piece of gear thinking it would replace an existing unit or units exactly. Going into any purchase knowing the trade-offs and deciding if it's worth it for you or not is what being an informed consumer is all about.
Old 5 days ago
  #44
Gear Head
 
pangea2003's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgearguy View Post
I tried to consolidate some of your points because I think they are fair and worth a quick discussion.

The pre-amp thing - The edits I was talking about before was mainly removing the clean pre-amp algorithm that was placed first in a lot of the factory FX Chains. I do think that there's a tendency with digital manufacturers to think they're good enough coders to simulate/emulate anything and combine that with some real-world costing decisions led to the removal of the analog stage that was there before. My initial listening *with my input sources* led me to decide that stage changed the sound in a way that did not work for me, so I took them out.

I would also guess that the USB 2 thing was a combination of 'what is most prevalent in the marketplace today' plus 'we already have working code to support this' plus cost factors. On the other hand, the expansion slots do give Eventide the opportunity to provide a card to support additional protocols given enough demand. At this point I think they need more market penetration for the 9000 and getting more feedback to determine what the next expansion card would be (and their forum is pretty forthcoming about considering possibilities from user suggestions, so sign up, log on, and lobby hard for what you want. )

In general, no commercial company is a charity. They make a profit or they go under. I've heard enough stories from people that have worked on console designs (for example) that the bean-counters and engineering staff would get into heated arguments about whether $0.10 shunt capacitors were needed on every channel, so I can imagine a small company like Eventide having to make hard trade-offs to get the 9000 to come in at a particular price point.

Missing algorithms - I too was really bummed about not having a full 8000 set + the extras. Again, on the forum there was acknowledgement that the customers felt let down by this and Eventide is working to get them back in. As a sw developer for 30+ years, I can come up with a lot of explanations why some algorithms aren't there, but it really comes down to a combination of 'we have to ship this thing to generate revenue' and 'these algorithms are a lot harder to port and make sound great than we thought'. Since the missing ones are ones I have used but do not rely on as my main tools, I was OK with that trade-off.

Note that some time soon the next update will be pushed out; no promises of what's in there, but the beta version has some improvements, some new stuff, and of course bug fixes. I think this will be the reality - buy it for what it does now and be comfortable knowing that over time the platform will continue to grow and improve. This should accelerate as the developers get more comfortable coding in the new environment and build up their library of tools.

Since VSig is now fully supported on the 9000, it should be possible to dump your custom presets out and get them into the 9000. Should they make a conversion tool to do it automatically? I think that would be nice, but again do you pull one or more developers off the main line of work to come up with a utility that might make 100 current owners happy and then have to support it on Windows, Mac and across all the OS upgrades, etc? Business reality says no.

FWIW, I've never bought a piece of gear thinking it would replace an existing unit or units exactly. Going into any purchase knowing the trade-offs and deciding if it's worth it for you or not is what being an informed consumer is all about.
i've been waiting to hear unbiassed real people experiences with the h9k for years now

i haven't bought the h9k yet because it's been clearly an 'un-finished' unit until quite recently in my humble opinion

yes, eventide is a small company and they can only provide 2x firmware updates per year due developing costs at this stage
however, the next firmware coming will certainly surprise people in terms of routing and mixing capabilities of the algos inside

and let's face it, the new expandability of the h9k kills the old platforms completely in this day and age
it's the real deal and gang for the buck out there in the fx processing world right now
but they just need to implement the firmware accordingly for once and for all!

the preamp stage.. that would add way more cost to the h9k and with all the preamp options available today.. i rather prefer stellar conversion and a proper computer interface than a built in preamp
even though, i see your point and i love the tone coming from the sum of all the parts of the old units

so my question is?
are the old algorithms really sounding as good with the new coding on the arm processors?
Old 4 days ago
  #46
Here for the gear
 
AdamIEcho's Avatar
Quote:
Quote:
I tried to consolidate some of your points because I think they are fair and worth a quick discussion.
Thank you.
Understand that at no point in our discussion have I disagreed with you. I see our public discourse as a tool to expose the forum to complementary points concerning the same relevant new device.

Quote:
The pre-amp thing - The edits I was talking about before was mainly removing the clean pre-amp algorithm that was placed first in a lot of the factory FX Chains. I do think that there's a tendency with digital manufacturers to think they're good enough coders to simulate/emulate anything and combine that with some real-world costing decisions led to the removal of the analog stage that was there before. My initial listening *with my input sources* led me to decide that stage changed the sound in a way that did not work for me, so I took them out.
In the studio with nice pre-amps, yes, they can be the ones, "voicing" what runs through the algorithms.
Going live however, as say a guitar-looping act, we've taken a step backwards, as now an external pre-amp must be purchased and transported.
Without the pre-amps, I'm seeing this as an, "auxilliary computer" in charge of running plugins built on world-class code, with an intuitive and sleek new GUI.
Should the on-board pre-amps been something a performer has come to depend on, now they will be responsible to shell out more to get stand-alone pre-amps that are on par with the ones that were included with the H8K.

Quote:
I would also guess that the USB 2 thing was a combination of 'what is most prevalent in the marketplace today' plus 'we already have working code to support this' plus cost factors. On the other hand, the expansion slots do give Eventide the opportunity to provide a card to support additional protocols given enough demand. At this point I think they need more market penetration for the 9000 and getting more feedback to determine what the next expansion card would be (and their forum is pretty forthcoming about considering possibilities from user suggestions, so sign up, log on, and lobby hard for what you want. )
Agreed, though can 16 channels of audio, even at 44.1k be expected to stream seamlessly to and from the H9000 over USB2?
On top of the street price of $7k, now, to bring transfer efficacy up-to the level of an H8000FW, we need to add a $700 expansion card. Yes, Apple killed FireWire, but we should at least begin with something capable of at least the same bandwidth, *as-standard* 15 years later.
It seems reminiscent of the business model where up-selling is the ultimate aim, as-in, "Sure we give you everything you technically need, but if you really want to see what this can do, may I interest you in..."

Quote:
In general, no commercial company is a charity. They make a profit or they go under. I've heard enough stories from people that have worked on console designs (for example) that the bean-counters and engineering staff would get into heated arguments about whether $0.10 shunt capacitors were needed on every channel, so I can imagine a small company like Eventide having to make hard trade-offs to get the 9000 to come in at a particular price point.
Yes, understood.
Here is my line of reasoning though...
Beginning with the H8000FW as our new base-line, producing an equivalent machine today, is significantly cheaper than when it was first introduced in 2005.
You can also fit more, in less space. Given what they've taken out, I don't see this being worth 1500 more than an H8000FW in terms of nuts and bolts.
I feel like the bulk of the extra cost borders on charity (for the company), or at least a donation toward further developments, and the purchase is more of an investment in the future -to be fair. Yes, there was also the "listening dummy" and the R&D costs. Personally, I'd have stuck to DSP, and paid the money to tried-and true Eventide vets to code some new magic. Then we'd have "everything-plus" without anyone having cold feet about the change-over.

I personally suspect that the time, effort and resources allocated in the switch to ARM, would have been better spent building on an already rock-solid platform.

Quote:
Missing algorithms - I too was really bummed about not having a full 8000 set + the extras. Again, on the forum there was acknowledgement that the customers felt let down by this and Eventide is working to get them back in. As a sw developer for 30+ years, I can come up with a lot of explanations why some algorithms aren't there, but it really comes down to a combination of 'we have to ship this thing to generate revenue' and 'these algorithms are a lot harder to port and make sound great than we thought'. Since the missing ones are ones I have used but do not rely on as my main tools, I was OK with that trade-off.
We are once again in agreement.

The value for those following this thread is to see what exactly gets traded, so they can have a clear idea going forward.
Some people are of the notion that going from an H8000FW to an H9000 is as much a no-brainer as going from an Orville to an H8000FW.

If there's one thing that we can both make clear to the public, it is that this is not the case.
I wish it were.

For some, like yourself, the trade is a stellar one; For others, an "ok" one, and still others, a no-go at this point.
The more we can objectively provide for the public, the easier it will be for them to ascertain exactly where they fit on that spectrum.

I'm no software developer, so your presence and expertise is greatly appreciated.
I can only give a subjective response, and make educated guesses as far as the math involved.

I'm sure you can clarify the technical side of things for concerned parties like "pangea2003" who seems eager to get some serious information about the effect the new coding has on the sound.

Quote:
Note that some time soon the next update will be pushed out; no promises of what's in there, but the beta version has some improvements, some new stuff, and of course bug fixes. I think this will be the reality - buy it for what it does now and be comfortable knowing that over time the platform will continue to grow and improve. This should accelerate as the developers get more comfortable coding in the new environment and build up their library of tools.
Just for context, I should state that I waited until 2013 to get my first H8000FW.
For those who don't know, that is when the improved display came standard, the U106 chip was soldered-in rather than socketed, and they still supported Eve/Net.
Did you know that machines after a particular SN had the ethernet port removed?
That means whoever invested in Eve/Net with intentions to add more H8000FWs to their network, "down-the-line", were left out to dry without warning.
Nothing on the site, no apologies.
The reason?
Eve/Net is discontinued, so why spend the "extra" to retain support?
A conscientious entity would answer, "Because just because they stopped making it doesn't mean anyone who spent $1795 on a remote was swallowed up by a sink-hole."
(This was a real destroyer of trust for me, and made me leary of giving the H9000 project the benefit of the doubt for anything).
There was also the E-Control fiasco, and don't forget the 15 years it took to get the Custom Scales back from the H3000 (after incessant customer hounding) -only to vanish again with the coming of the H9000.

So, I am going with some sage advice that I was once given, "Never purchase an Eventide product based on a promise".
This is not my advice to anyone, rather a rule I observe to stay grounded in the midst of al this.
I will need to see the minimum of my requirements met before trading a single processor for one of these.

Quote:
Since VSig is now fully supported on the 9000, it should be possible to dump your custom presets out and get them into the 9000. Should they make a conversion tool to do it automatically? I think that would be nice, but again do you pull one or more developers off the main line of work to come up with a utility that might make 100 current owners happy and then have to support it on Windows, Mac and across all the OS upgrades, etc? Business reality says no.


If this was the only thing giving me pause, I'd hunker down and just port the presets, one-by-one -60 or so of mine, plus every Italo library.
Creating a bulk "dump" method/tool would be amazing and show that the people who have purchased their products over the years are re-paid in kind.
No-one expected such a thing going from the H3000 family to the DSP4000 platform, but here it seems reasonable to request -even if they out-source the project

Quote:
FWIW, I've never bought a piece of gear thinking it would replace an existing unit or units exactly. Going into any purchase knowing the trade-offs and deciding if it's worth it for you or not is what being an informed consumer is all about.
Agreed 100%, and that has been my point from the beginning.
Any impression that I'm attempting to contradict your point is unintentional -I look forward to reading about new and exciting ways you are using this in the studio.

People should be exposed to each of our perspectives on this, along with any others willing to share in an objective way.
"TheLastByte" has made some strong points, along with Italo, who is always thorough and informative.

I have enjoyed our discourse, and will check back in here as time permits.

I hope I've come across as clear-headed and objective here, as that is my intention.
For the record, I am all for the H9000 coming into its full potential.

From experience and my personal dealings with the company, I just have a few issues that still have me waiting.
I hope that sharing those concerns with this community help the people who are part of it to make informed decisions that are right for each of them.

Furthermore, maybe it will get some more people to contact Eventide and help give them direction based on their end-user's needs.

Maybe I will post my "H99 Theses" here to inspire others to organize and march on Little Ferry.
NOTE: That is a *JOKE*, internet. Please don't march anywhere other than straight-to-bed.

"oldgearguy", I'm sure we'll speak some more about this in the future. You've got a good head about you and I'm glad to hear from someone objective who is enjoying their H9000.

If and when Eventide will fine tune this to a point where it will be a sensible purchase for my needs, I'll be glad to get one and exchange H9000 tips, tricks and my own presets with you.

Until then, keep enjoying your work and making great things.

-Adam.

Last edited by AdamIEcho; 4 days ago at 08:41 AM.. Reason: Typo; incomplete sentence
Old 4 days ago
  #47
Here for the gear
 
AdamIEcho's Avatar
Quote:
i've been waiting to hear unbiassed real people experiences with the h9k for years now
I hope we are of some assistance here.
Quote:
i haven't bought the h9k yet because it's been clearly an 'un-finished' unit until quite recently in my humble opinion
I still see it that way, but am watching closely.

Quote:
yes, eventide is a small company and they can only provide 2x firmware updates per year due developing costs at this stage
however, the next firmware coming will certainly surprise people in terms of routing and mixing capabilities of the algos inside
Yes.
I sure hope it does. Focus is the key here.

Quote:
and let's face it, the new expandability of the h9k kills the old platforms completely in this day and age
it's the real deal and gang for the buck out there in the fx processing world right now
but they just need to implement the firmware accordingly for once and for all!
Yes, but YES to ...implementing the firmware accordingly...

Quote:
the preamp stage.. that would add way more cost to the h9k and with all the preamp options available today.. i rather prefer stellar conversion and a proper computer interface than a built in preamp
even though, i see your point and i love the tone coming from the sum of all the parts of the old units
Preamp cost: I'd really need to see the numbers on that one. Please see where I addressed this in my last response to "oldgearguy"
Conversion is on par with the H8000FW, possibly, slightly better on paper.
Computer interface: I have my reservations about all of that power running on USB 2, but "oldgearguy" may be able to speak to that with more authority.

Loving the tone -yes, we stand in one line there. Believe it or not, there are some who wouldn't have the slightest idea what we are on about concerning this.

Quote:
so my question is?
are the old algorithms really sounding as good with the new coding on the arm processors?
Sorry, I can only offer a subjective answer here.

"oldgearguy" not only uses one regularly, but he's had 2 H8000FWs and has been a software engineer for 30+ years.

If anyone can speak objectively to sonics with the understanding of the math to back it up in this discussion, it's him.
If you're not "upgrading", I can't see you having a single issue with the H9000. If you are, well, consider the 2 platforms in the context of your intended use and see how the scale tilts.

It's all any of us can do at this time.

I wish you good luck in making your decision, and hope you enjoy whatever you wind up with in the end.

-Adam.
Old 4 days ago
  #48
Lives for gear
 
oldgearguy's Avatar
 

A quick reply to address a real question that has been cleaned up by the mods --

unfortunately it was a serial process for me. I could not afford to have the H8000FWx2 + evenet *and* the H9000 here at the same time.

I think the number of people/studios that have both are a very small number and you'd need to seek them out to get a complete (non-Eventide) answer to how similar the algorithms sound.

I need to go back and check on the statement I'm about to make, but it seemed to me that when there are repeats of an algorithm (for example - BlackHole), the H8000 version sounds different than the H9 version (both were ported/made available in the 9000), but again, I need to check to see whether that was primarily due to settings or whether the algorithm itself is a bit different.

Without a rigorous test side by side, it's hard to say 8000 vs. 9000. You'd need to minimize the influence of the analog stage on the 8000 (maybe use Firewire/ADAT or something) to really check.
Old 4 days ago
  #49
Gear Head
 
pangea2003's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgearguy View Post
A quick reply to address a real question that has been cleaned up by the mods --

unfortunately it was a serial process for me. I could not afford to have the H8000FWx2 + evenet *and* the H9000 here at the same time.

I think the number of people/studios that have both are a very small number and you'd need to seek them out to get a complete (non-Eventide) answer to how similar the algorithms sound.

I need to go back and check on the statement I'm about to make, but it seemed to me that when there are repeats of an algorithm (for example - BlackHole), the H8000 version sounds different than the H9 version (both were ported/made available in the 9000), but again, I need to check to see whether that was primarily due to settings or whether the algorithm itself is a bit different.

Without a rigorous test side by side, it's hard to say 8000 vs. 9000. You'd need to minimize the influence of the analog stage on the 8000 (maybe use Firewire/ADAT or something) to really check.
the blackhole structure of the algo from the h8000 is different than the one on the h9
they ported all the algos to the new arm processors without using their ears.. they used an algorithm to 'check' the sonics on the h9000
can someone elucidate how eventide ported old algo's to new machines before?
thanks all for the constructive discussion
Old 4 days ago
  #50
Gear Head
 
pangea2003's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIEcho View Post
Computer interface: I have my reservations about all of that power running on USB 2
-Adam.
the usb2 and the 'driver' they have included for the h9000k is just a joke for a machine of this calibre.

if they would have included a better computer interface for the h9k i would then have purchased the unit years ago.

on another hand the restrictions of only being able to use one single digital connection at the time (either adat -only at 48Khz max-, aes/ebu, or spdif) also ruins the integration of the unit with the rest of my devices.

the dante expansion is a no brainer for the h9k but only if you have already invested dante in your studio.. otherwise, the budget to integrate the h9k is seriously arguable.. especially, with all the options available in 2019.
Old 4 days ago
  #51
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pangea2003 View Post
the usb2 and the 'driver' they have included for the h9000k is just a joke for a machine of this calibre.

if they would have included a better computer interface for the h9k i would then have purchased the unit years ago.

on another hand the restrictions of only being able to use one single digital connection at the time (either adat -only at 48Khz max-, aes/ebu, or spdif) also ruins the integration of the unit with the rest of my devices.

the dante expansion is a no brainer for the h9k but only if you have already invested dante in your studio.. otherwise, the budget to integrate the h9k is seriously arguable.. especially, with all the options available in 2019.
Agree. It should have been a proprietary Ethernet driver, like Metric Halo has on their audio interfaces
Old 4 days ago
  #52
Gear Head
 
pangea2003's Avatar
and i can't believe they didn't include bi-directional OSC via the ethernet port to control the h9k parameters..
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