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Neumann U67 reissue vs vintage video Condenser Microphones
Old 6 days ago
  #151
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
still enjoying my reissue.
s2 removed is my preference.
tried a tele grey plate and Amperex.the stock tube is working well.
the tracks are sounding great.no "ugly","distant" or "choking" sound here.[got a good capsule?]
I've owned 4 vintage 67's
out of curiosity I emailed Klaus about capsule tuning etc and as of now nothing like that is happening
Thoroughly appreciate Klaus' knowledge and diligence.
cheers all.
Old 6 days ago
  #152
Gear Maniac
 
Spindrift's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 View Post
There’s no reason to read something and not engage in some critical thinking about it. Even the best have made mistakes, including Klaus. No reason to get side tracked with a big discussion of that, to be discrete. But he’s done tremendous work too.
You have a point about good discussion and I’m all for that. For instance, I’m not sure I buy the mic cable difference either...I have a thin reissue cable and some GAC7 I’ve soldered up to test out. I have to hear it with my own ears.

I know that a lot of time and effort went into the report that he needn’t publish and to dismiss him as just some guy wearing headphones is unfair. You can put your trust into the modern Neumann manufacturing processes and testing methods. I’ve had Klaus work on a number of my mics and I’ll trust my ears and his work and over Neumanns in today’s day and age. There is a reason he is backed up with work and it ain’t “cult of personality”.

Last edited by Spindrift; 6 days ago at 07:25 AM.. Reason: Clarity
Old 6 days ago
  #153
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jjblair's Avatar
Well, what it always comes down to me is, which differences matter? I'm using Mogami in my studio for my XLRs. Some people can't believe I'm not using Belden or Canare. Now, if I took the time, I bet you I could hear a difference, but will it matter in the context of making my record?

One of the best vocal performances I ever captured that still makes me teary eyed was done on a BLUE 47, with one of their K67 capsules. Oh, and I recorded to black faced ADAT. It helped that the singer was Johnny Cash, but still...

Harshness is something I hear and have to deal with. Darkness, too. A lot of the nuance stuff can be overcome by a great performance. But then again, I think when the vocal sound is really, really great, it cane inspire an even better performance out of a great singer. It just boils down to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, I guess.
Old 6 days ago
  #154
Here for the gear
I´ll admit I never tried the vintage u67, but I love my reissue
Old 6 days ago
  #155
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Klaus's Avatar
 

I want to emphasize that frequency-balanced K67/870 capsules are still leaving the Sennheiser factory. They are just not as common anymore.

I also added the following to my review, to dispel notions that my capsule impressions are entirely subjective:

Neumann knows of my concerns. A few years ago, I had sent them two factory-fresh capsules, one from the pre-2000, frequency-balanced era, the other one from the newer crop of bass-starved K870. They ran thorough tests (they sent me the results) and, though the graphs clearly show a bass-roll off of several dB on the bass-starved capsule, Neumann deemed both versions to be within spec.
Old 6 days ago
  #156
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toledo3's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus View Post
I want to emphasize that frequency-balanced K67/870 capsules are still leaving the Sennheiser factory. They are just not as common anymore.

I also added the following to my review, to dispel notions that my capsule impressions are entirely subjective:

Neumann knows of my concerns. A few years ago, I had sent them two factory-fresh capsules, one from the pre-2000, frequency-balanced era, the other one from the newer crop of bass-starved K870. They ran thorough tests (they sent me the results) and, though the graphs clearly show a bass-roll off of several dB on the bass-starved capsule, Neumann deemed both versions to be within spec.
And if I may wade in for a second... I floated the idea of adding this footnote after online conversation with Klaus, and him stating the above incident.

There is something to be said for cold and hard measurements, and I think it only strengthens the merit of Klaus’s position. Quite a bit, depending on perspective.

I don’t want anyone to think I’m trying to hammer Klaus. Klaus is very perceptive, very helpful. In my own way, I was just giving some criticism that could maybe result in an even stronger argument.

And I think it DID.
Old 5 days ago
  #157
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post

One of the best vocal performances I ever captured that still makes me teary eyed was done on a BLUE 47, with one of their K67 capsules. Oh, and I recorded to black faced ADAT. It helped that the singer was Johnny Cash, but still...
Hey Mr. JJ. Ya got me curious now. What song are you referring to? I'm assuming it got released onto a record?
Old 5 days ago
  #158
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jjblair's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by u87allen View Post
Hey Mr. JJ. Ya got me curious now. What song are you referring to? I'm assuming it got released onto a record?
Not my best sonic recording, as the studio conditions were a joke. But my favorite and most emotional recording.

YouTube
Old 5 days ago
  #159
Lives for gear
Here is a video comparison I did of my 67 with the vintage and re/issue

YouTube
Old 5 days ago
  #160
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
Not my best sonic recording, as the studio conditions were a joke. But my favorite and most emotional recording.

YouTube
Sad, but also kinda cool that they're looking forward with positiveness. I'm thinking this was recorded shortly before his wife died?

Nice photo as well. Goes with the song well.
Old 5 days ago
  #161
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jjblair's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by u87allen View Post
Sad, but also kinda cool that they're looking forward with positiveness. I'm thinking this was recorded shortly before his wife died?

Nice photo as well. Goes with the song well.
We're getting way off topic, but actually, no. Johnny was very ill at the time. He had just been in a coma for 2 week, we cut the track, and then he went into another coma, and then we went back and did the vocals when he came out of that coma. Nobody believed for a minute that she would die first, like in the song. I came back from her funeral, heard the song, and was in shock.
Old 5 days ago
  #162
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuanaconda View Post
Here is a video comparison I did of my 67 with the vintage and re/issue

YouTube
I agree with the first reply on youtube. Mic C is my favorite. I liked the way it handled the highs, bit more crisp and natural I thought. Mic B sounded the most U87-ish IMO.
Old 5 days ago
  #163
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IanBSC's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuanaconda View Post
Here is a video comparison I did of my 67 with the vintage and re/issue

YouTube
This is was very useful. Thanks.
Old 5 days ago
  #164
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuanaconda View Post
Here is a video comparison I did of my 67 with the vintage and re/issue

YouTube
C,A,B

In that order. B was pretty nasty, agreeing that it was a bit u87ai like. Some boxiness, and capsule resonance. Was more apparent when the music was louder.

Im guessing A is the vintage, C reissue and B stam. A and C is so close it really doesn't matter.

Thanks!
Old 5 days ago
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanBSC View Post
This is was very useful. Thanks.
thanks so much for doing this. Lots of work! It's funny I personally wasn't wowed by any of them on her voice. (at least on my headbuds) Perhaps also a distance for mic thing. Understandably u wouldn't want too close so as not to bias the test by weird angles coming into play. It felt to me that the midrange in her voice was not an ideal match for any of these mics. My favourite was C I think but hell not by much. It was way more marginal than I would have thought. Any result would not surprise me. I didn't find B terrible as some seem to have but I would 'probably' agree on putting it last. I'm not at all confident though which itself says something about my preference. Blind tests are wonderful but we should also have blind voting because I hope I'm not simply unknowingly being influenced by the above opinions. In any case I'm not hearing night and day differences in that example.
Old 5 days ago
  #166
Quote:
”Blind tests are wonderful but we should also have blind voting“
All I can picture is millions of anonymous people going into booths to vote for A, B or C while wearing blindfolds.
Old 5 days ago
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
All I can picture is millions of anonymous people going into booths to vote for A, B or C while wearing blindfolds.
Many voters seem blind even without blindfolds.
edit: was not knocking votes re the youtube test, just joking about elections generally speaking.

Last edited by Swing; 5 days ago at 04:30 PM..
Old 5 days ago
  #168
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jjblair's Avatar
Has anybody else noticed that the top two mics are off axis to the singer? I wonder if the brightest of those three mics is the one that is on axis. I hate tests when they try to group mics. It's a very flawed method. Measure a placement, redo the performance as close as possible.
Old 5 days ago
  #169
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Sometimes, the most important things in life are "off topic".

I loved that recording JJ-I'm a widower myself (2004).
Thanks for posting it.

Perfect timing as I'm about to study Cash's catalog, partly as inspiration, to write/co-write new songs.

OK, now I'll go back and read/listen to the "on topic" stuff...

Chris
Old 5 days ago
  #170
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Joshua, I liked "Microphone B", the best on your video. Rich and full sounding.

Funny how we can hear things differently. Two other GS member (I really respect BTW) thought B was U87-ish.
Maybe I like that U87 type sound, more than I consciously realized! Stubborn-ahem "determined" that I am,
my vote is B for "Vintage 67".

When I sang through the U67 reissue at NAMM, IMHO it must have been one of the reissues with a "lesser capsule".
I expected some sonic magic ala Simon & Garfunkel's iconic recordings. It sounded "excellent", but not "great".

What was weird was that a TLM 67 I tried before (must have had a good capsule), sounded great for me.
(I do love the 47 FET reissue BTW)

Bock 67 was "great". I was in good voice that day, and it held up great with about 5 key changes (one Temptations song!)
from bass-baritone through 2nd tenor & (soprano) falsetto. Not like the last week with the Trabuco Canyon fire going,
if you have allergies like me (in South Orange County), very tough going (cough cough).

Chris
Old 5 days ago
  #171
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jjblair's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
Sometimes, the most important things in life are "off topic".

I loved that recording JJ-I'm a widower myself (2004).
Thanks for posting it.

Perfect timing as I'm about to study Cash's catalog, partly as inspiration, to write/co-write new songs.

OK, now I'll go back and read/listen to the "on topic" stuff...

Chris
I'm sorry to hear about your wife.
Old 5 days ago
  #172
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
We're getting way off topic, but actually, no. Johnny was very ill at the time. He had just been in a coma for 2 week, we cut the track, and then he went into another coma, and then we went back and did the vocals when he came out of that coma. Nobody believed for a minute that she would die first, like in the song. I came back from her funeral, heard the song, and was in shock.
Tough times man. Hope you made it through OK.
Old 5 days ago
  #173
Lives for gear
 

Thanks so much JJ. There is such a thing as a "Soulmate"!
Without being with her (Kathy), I wouldn't have been quite as sure about it.

It's bittersweet when I hear any Deneice Williams' recordings-she sounded quite a bit like her. Just under 5 feet, a petite pretty Blonde with a BIG High Soprano.

My vocal master (Hernan Pelayo-who AFAIK turned 100 in February!) really wanted her to sing professionally (she was too shy to do that).
Kathy had incredible vocal agility, and when she first sing along with myself and Maestro Pelayo on vocal exercises, we were astonished at her gift.

Hopefully when I get to do my Vintage King L.A. field trip, later this year,
I'll have a better impression of the 67 reissue. Otherwise it may just be choosing
between the Bock iFET and U47 FET reissue eventually.

The inner "Chess Geek" in me REALLY appreciates Klaus' Methodology.
This is how, as masters, we used to analyse chess variations before computers.
Klaus would have made a VERY strong Chess Master!

Thanks also JJ for bringing the microphone placement, on the Stam video, to our attention.
I'm trying to learn how to do proper vocal mic shootouts, and that helped quite a bit.

Chris

P.S. +1 U87allen on your last post.
Old 5 days ago
  #174
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
Has anybody else noticed that the top two mics are off axis to the singer? I wonder if the brightest of those three mics is the one that is on axis. I hate tests when they try to group mics. It's a very flawed method. Measure a placement, redo the performance as close as possible.
Yeah, I noticed. But I wanted to indulge anyways. Imperfect data is not useless data IMO. As long as we know what the imperfections were.

At least as far as that crispness in the highs from the one mic, I didn't think that one was likely to come from being off-axis, based on my limited experience with microphones. It didn't sound any "brighter" than mic-B. Just like the highs were more "pulled together" or coherent, not sloppy. But I'm not going to pound my fist on the table and say that couldn't possibly be from being off-axis.
Old 5 days ago
  #175
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rectape's Avatar
This article is excellent and explain a lot on why all of the current neumann mics that I’ve heard were disapointing to my ears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
And somebody did it! In fact, all the components were swapped.

The master weighs in:

Neumann U67 Reissue
Old 4 days ago
  #176
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jjblair's Avatar
Simply listening on my laptop, my internal bias wanted me to choose the darkest mic as being the vintage 67, as 67s tend to be dark, but is it one of the off axis mics? One mic in particular was brighter than the others, and I couldn't rule out that it was the only mic which was directly on axis.

WARNING: Don't trip over the names I'm dropping ahead.

I can usually identify a 67 in a recording. For me, I hear it in the "ess". I was so proud of myself once. I was listening to Supertramp's "Crime of the Century," and thought it sounded like a U67 on Roger's voice. I was hanging out a bit with Ken Scott at the time, who confirmed that it was indeed a 67. It's a game that I like to play, that gets harder with newer records, because it's no longer a choice of basically 6 or 7 mics. However, I did correctly identify the TLM103 on a mix I'm currently doing. (I'm happy to share some Soothe plug-in settings with anybody who wants to make those things sound less awful. LOL.)

Also, there was the time that somebody in here posted clips of a mic with two different capsules: a K47 and K67. I think I must have been the only person on the thread who knew what a K67 sounded outside of a U67 circuit, because I was literally the only person who identified the brighter capsule as being the K67.

But back to the topic of listening to things and Klaus: I was once talking to my old roommate Jon Brion about Klaus working on his mics. Jon, who has been known to have spent an entire night at Capitol room B listening to different types of solder, and to accuse the management at East West for putting new lacquer on the wood, and effectively ruining the sound of the room, stated to me unequivocally that "Klaus has the best ears." Jon has one of the most finely trained ears I've ever encountered, so this is quite an endorsement.
Old 4 days ago
  #177
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Jeff Hayat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rectape View Post
This article is excellent and explain a lot on why all of the current neumann mics that I’ve heard were disapointing to my ears.
the mic sounded lifeless in the highs, choked and hard in the midrange, congested and unable to process complex information in time, resulting in sibilance. The bass region was starved, with the lowest octave severely under-represented.

Ouch.
Old 4 days ago
  #178
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Other things being equal, IMHO primo U47 vs. U67...

The U47 sounds "bigger" on vocals. Not necessarily better (of course!), but bigger.
Therefore I think the capsules, are the primary determinant for that.

I don't have the recording chops, of the heavyweights (or middle-or bantam for that matter) here. But have done tons of listening to records, where I know whether they used either a U47 (like the old Buddy Holly cuts by Norman Petty),
or 67 (ex. James Taylor-similar vocal type/range to Holly)-to name a few.

I did guess correctly once where the U47 FET was used, instead of the tube version BTW. On "You'll Never Find (Another Love Like Mine)" sung by late/great Lou Rawls. The upper mids on the FET sound flatter to me, vs. the 47 Tube.

Chris
Old 4 days ago
  #179
Gear Addict
 
mattcollen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hayat View Post
the mic sounded lifeless in the highs, choked and hard in the midrange, congested and unable to process complex information in time, resulting in sibilance. The bass region was starved, with the lowest octave severely under-represented.

Ouch.
This is not my experience, as my new U67 bested several excellent, vintage examples. It appears that the capsule variation is the major factor. If that is the case, U87ai,TLM67, and U67 reissue capsules are a gamble. I hope this is not the case!
Old 4 days ago
  #180
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Sounds like you got a good one! Chris
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