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Serban Ghenea Mixes - all ITB?
Old 18th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1981
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes View Post
I would not say that my room is an ideal mix environment and it has not been tuned and tested; I'm just very used to how it sounds. I will listen on my Pro-AC's, on headphones, and occasionally on little Bose computer speakers.

Only because I've been in this room with these speakers for almost 20 years do I trust enough to not listen in a car or other reference room. That just takes a lot of time to achieve totally familiarity.
Nice, so only 7000ish days from whatever point I land a decent room again for the car to no longer taunt my mixdowns. I look forward to the day
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Old 18th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1982
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes View Post
I'm just very used to how it sounds.

Only because I've been in this room with these speakers for almost 20 years do I trust enough to not listen in a car or other reference room. That just takes a lot of time to achieve totally familiarity.
I think this is one of the most important posts in this thread! I won't forget the first time I had a pair of NS10's in my studio. I blew up the first woofer at day one. I hated the sound but how could they be the favorites of many engineers? Experience, thousands of hours of getting used to the sound of the room and the speakers?
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Old 19th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartijnNL View Post
I think this is one of the most important posts in this thread! I won't forget the first time I had a pair of NS10's in my studio. I blew up the first woofer at day one. I hated the sound but how could they be the favorites of many engineers? Experience, thousands of hours of getting used to the sound of the room and the speakers?
I guess they sounded so bad that you had to make a great mix on them..lol..
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Old 19th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1984
Gear Head
 

John, I'm sure you guys have been asked this question dozens of times before, but if you had to pick (and answer on Serban's behalf from what you know of his opinions), what are some of the 'Top 40 pop' mixes you two have done that you're most proud of or think are your best works?
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Old 19th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1985
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartijnNL View Post
I think this is one of the most important posts in this thread! I won't forget the first time I had a pair of NS10's in my studio. I blew up the first woofer at day one. I hated the sound but how could they be the favorites of many engineers? Experience, thousands of hours of getting used to the sound of the room and the speakers?
1. Top mixers, for whatever reason back in the day, decided to use the NS-10's.
2. Other top mixers/intermediate engineers saw the popularity of the NS-10's and wanted to replicate their favorite mixes.
3. NS-10's pop up everywhere in the 90s.
4. Engineers now use NS-10's because they are familiar with them to such a massive degree that they can't imagine mixing without them.

There is nothing inherently special about them or any other speaker. Just familiarity. I imagine that in 20 or so years they'll be a relic of the past.
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Old 19th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanak View Post
1. Top mixers, for whatever reason back in the day, decided to use the NS-10's.
2. Other top mixers/intermediate engineers saw the popularity of the NS-10's and wanted to replicate their favorite mixes.
3. NS-10's pop up everywhere in the 90s.
4. Engineers now use NS-10's because they are familiar with them to such a massive degree that they can't imagine mixing without them.

There is nothing inherently special about them or any other speaker. Just familiarity. I imagine that in 20 or so years they'll be a relic of the past.
The same reason for the popularity of Pro Tools. Old school engineers and producers tend to do what's safe and "tried and true" for people in the arts they are actually a very conservative bunch. I guess if you mess a session up with the "wrong" mic or <insert whatever here> you might lose reputation and work.
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Old 19th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phosphenetre View Post
John, I'm sure you guys have been asked this question dozens of times before, but if you had to pick (and answer on Serban's behalf from what you know of his opinions), what are some of the 'Top 40 pop' mixes you two have done that you're most proud of or think are your best works?
I started to write a long answer but was leaving out too many songs and artists. It is too hard to answer properly.

The gist of my feeling is that the ones that we would be most proud of are the ones that led to long relationships and friendships with the artists, producers, and A&R's that we worked with and continue to work with and call friends.
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Old 19th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1988
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes View Post
I started to write a long answer but was leaving out too many songs and artists. It is too hard to answer properly.

The gist of my feeling is that the ones that we would be most proud of are the ones that led to long relationships and friendships with the artists, producers, and A&R's that we worked with and continue to work with and call friends.
Beautiful answer
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Old 20th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1989
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanak View Post
1. Top mixers, for whatever reason back in the day, decided to use the NS-10's.
2. Other top mixers/intermediate engineers saw the popularity of the NS-10's and wanted to replicate their favorite mixes.
3. NS-10's pop up everywhere in the 90s.
4. Engineers now use NS-10's because they are familiar with them to such a massive degree that they can't imagine mixing without them.

There is nothing inherently special about them or any other speaker. Just familiarity. I imagine that in 20 or so years they'll be a relic of the past.
Not entirely true. Engineers initially found them useful because of the transient response - unlike other speakers, they weren't encumbered with massive bass extension, so the drivers responded well to transients - making it easy to balance vocal levels, bass against kick etc, and to make things translate well to radio.

That's what made other engineers want them, and find them useful.

What I do find a little odd is new engineers lusting after them - when there's plenty of modern speakers that do what they do well (for example, Amphion and Unity Audio's The Rock both have that similar transient response). There's one FB group in particular (based around a particular young Canadian mixer of hardcore music) - the members slavishly fawn over whatever this guy says, and they all want to buy NS10s...even though few of them have any professional experience of the speaker.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scragend View Post
The same reason for the popularity of Pro Tools. Old school engineers and producers tend to do what's safe and "tried and true" for people in the arts they are actually a very conservative bunch. I guess if you mess a session up with the "wrong" mic or <insert whatever here> you might lose reputation and work.
Also not entirely true. Yes, there's a certain amount of "it's the standard and so expected, and people work in it because it's the standard", but there's also not a proper replacement for large scale instrumental tracking - UAD arguably now have that with LUNA, but that's not as portable as PT now (ironically - after years of people bemoaning PT LE being tied to Avid interfaces!).

So the big rooms run PT because that's the absolute best solution, and smaller rooms run PT (natively) because that ensures portability between rooms, and people working on their own systems run PT because that gives them best workflow.

(ignoring any arguments about preferences of the software themselves).
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Old 21st October 2020
  #1990
Gear Addict
 

My last and more important question John. Did the Serban answered any question here using your account?
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Old 21st October 2020 | Show parent
  #1991
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bambamboom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes View Post
Only because I've been in this room with these speakers for almost 20 years do I trust enough to not listen in a car or other reference room. That just takes a lot of time to achieve totally familiarity.
Just to put this into perspective, if you are talking about hours in front of the speakers, a 40hr work week over 20 years is approximately 40,000 hours. Let's say you're only playing audio 50% of that time, you're still double the "10,000 hours rule".

To compare to myself, not putting in nearly as many hours (not full time), I figure I have around 1000 hours since switching to my Amphions. So that means John/Serban could have around 20 times as much experience on their current monitors as I do.

When I put that into perspective it says a lot about why their stuff sounds so consistently great. And that's just on one dimension (monitors/listening)....

The way I see it is something like this: Talent = time + effort + aptitude
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Old 21st October 2020 | Show parent
  #1992
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TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPORT View Post
My last and more important question John. Did the Serban answered any question here using your account?
No. All my answers and opinions.
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Old 21st October 2020 | Show parent
  #1993
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes View Post
I would not say that my room is an ideal mix environment and it has not been tuned and tested; I'm just very used to how it sounds. I will listen on my Pro-AC's, on headphones, and occasionally on little Bose computer speakers.

Only because I've been in this room with these speakers for almost 20 years do I trust enough to not listen in a car or other reference room. That just takes a lot of time to achieve totally familiarity.
John that's such great advice. I tell the young generation this all the time!!!( you got to put the hours in to become a master) you have to know your set-up really well and only time provides that!

MicAngelo
www.MPSRecording.com
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Old 21st October 2020 | Show parent
  #1994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo View Post
John that's such great advice. I tell the young generation this all the time!!!( you got to put the hours in to become a master) you have to know your set-up really well and only time provides that!

MicAngelo
www.MPSRecording.com
One benefit for those of us lucky enough to stick it out for a long career.
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Old 21st October 2020 | Show parent
  #1995
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes View Post
One benefit for those of us lucky enough to stick it out for a long career.
There's the flip side to getting to know an untreated room over 20 years. . . Do you find this puts you in a position of room dependency? Have you had to do mixes outside of this room? If so, do you find them on par? Or does the way you've set yourself up allow you to always work out of the same place?

I'm wondering if mixdowns on the par of yours and Serbans are even possible outside years of room familiarity. I know for me, even treated rooms all sound different and take some getting used to (and much ends up being done in untreated or semi-treated due to the project studio explosion). This definitely seems like a hurdle that can cost you that extra 5% or whatever, that's the difference between pretty great and spectacular (which does indeed matter.)
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Old 21st October 2020 | Show parent
  #1996
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TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
There's the flip side to getting to know an untreated room over 20 years. . . Do you find this puts you in a position of room dependency? Have you had to do mixes outside of this room? If so, do you find them on par? Or does the way you've set yourself up allow you to always work out of the same place?

I'm wondering if mixdowns on the par of yours and Serbans are even possible outside years of room familiarity. I know for me, even treated rooms all sound different and take some getting used to. This definitely seems like a hurdle that can cost you that extra 5% or whatever that is the difference between pretty great and spectacular (which does indeed matter.)
Good points. Well, the room isn't exactly untreated, just not tested and perfected.

We do all of the work here, not working anywhere else. Even when we were traveling a bit a looong time ago, most of the work, and all of the final listens were done in our rooms.

Also, when traveling for work, we still worked on nearfield ProAC speakers that we were familiar with.

But I don't think we've worked out of another facility at all in maybe 16 years.
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Old 21st October 2020 | Show parent
  #1997
Here for the gear
 

Hi John — after working alongside Serban for so long, it’s clear you both have a symbiotic / similar taste and workflow. But are there any ways you would say your taste differs from Serban’s and vice versa?
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Old 21st October 2020 | Show parent
  #1998
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes View Post
Good points. Well, the room isn't exactly untreated, just not tested and perfected.

We do all of the work here, not working anywhere else. Even when we were traveling a bit a looong time ago, most of the work, and all of the final listens were done in our rooms.

Also, when traveling for work, we still worked on nearfield ProAC speakers that we were familiar with.

But I don't think we've worked out of another facility at all in maybe 16 years.
Thanks, that's a very useful bit of info. As the creative world increasingly goes mobile, there will likely be a growing need for those who stay put to finish things up as best as they can be finished.

I'm past that point myself and am mainly a producer who ends up needing to do my own mixdowns sometimes, but for up-and-comers interesting in the mixdown role that could be a great competitive advantage to have in mind. Its something that can only be achieved with a lot of time, so its a pretty significant advantage that others can't easily remedy.

Smart stuff on your parts. You could easily have bounced from LA to NY to Atlanta to Miami working in commercial spots, like many. Not doing that clearly has paid off.
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Old 21st October 2020 | Show parent
  #1999
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TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Thanks, that's a very useful bit of info. As the creative world increasingly goes mobile, there will likely be a growing need for those who stay put to finish things up as best as they can be finished.

I'm past that point myself and am mainly a producer who ends up needing to do my own mixdowns sometimes, but for up-and-comers interesting in the mixdown role that could be a great competitive advantage to have in mind. Its something that can only be achieved with a lot of time, so its a pretty significant advantage that others can't easily remedy.
Interesting point, I had not thought of it that way really.

A lot of our particular advantage might be our location.

We are not in a major music city, so both bad and good. We work uninterrupted by "hangers on", "drop in to visit and shoot the ****", and "let me introduce you to this guy/ gal" situations. Also we are not doing "attended" mix sessions, so less wasting time waiting for people or session lock-outs where we can't pull up a song for artist A because artist B is in the room and it is "his" time.

On the other hand, there are sacrifices too. We might be out of the loop on the ground floor of new artists, producers, A&R. Also we really never to get to actually meet a lot of cool people, and there are no industry parties here! (probably a benefit actually)

I think that it is one of the things that let us develop that consistency; no one was saying I want you to mix this record at this studio. No one was saying that the artist has booked out X rooms at Y studio and you'll be mixing there. When they did do that in the early days it was always back to a familiar room to finish up (printed stems back into ProTools though the console if used, and then tweaked the stems).
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Old 22nd October 2020 | Show parent
  #2000
Gear Nut
 

hi john, thank you for keep answering people's questions here.
informations and experience you're sharing are really valuable for me.

i wanted to ask about mastering if you don't mind.
you guys seem to stick with maybe three guys for the most of the times,
and i wonder how do you decide which mastering engineer to go with each time?
is it you deciding that this mastering engineer's style would fit the song better,
or would you give your clients the options to choose from and let them decide,
or would you send your mix to multiple mastering engineers and pick the one you or your clients like the best?

and when you can achieve the competitive loudness and tight balance that already works well,
what would be the thing that your mixes can get from the mastering?
well, if it's an album, cohesiveness would be the thing that you can expect to get,
but what are you looking for when it's sending a single for mastering?

i've seen some of the mixes that don't have mastering credit which i assume they were not sent to the mastering studio.
even though sometimes the song is mastered but just not credited.
do some of your works actually get released without being mastered?

have you been asked to provide stems for the stem mastering?
i guess because your mixes have tight balance and integrity within the mix that there'd be no point doing that.
but if you are asked, would you refuse to send stems, or would you let them do what they want to do?

and do you ever revisit your mix after having a listen to the master and resubmit the mix
because you feel that could improve the final result?
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Old 22nd October 2020
  #2001
Lives for gear
 

I dont think you and Serban need to go to parties.

You guys are cool enough.

You are so right about what we call ME time.

All of that stuff mentioned is an absolute distraction from your art.

I am a singer, songwriter , producer and between watching an episode of NCIS
and taking my boy for a learner drive time can certainly get away on you.

Thanks once again for taking time out to answer questions and share thoughts.

Cheers
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Old 22nd October 2020 | Show parent
  #2002
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickknack View Post
I dont think you and Serban need to go to parties.

You guys are cool enough.

Thanks once again for taking time out to answer questions and share thoughts.
+1
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Old 22nd October 2020 | Show parent
  #2003
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OwensDrumming's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldvodka View Post
hi john, thank you for keep answering people's questions here.
informations and experience you're sharing are really valuable for me.

i wanted to ask about mastering if you don't mind.
you guys seem to stick with maybe three guys for the most of the times,
and i wonder how do you decide which mastering engineer to go with each time?
is it you deciding that this mastering engineer's style would fit the song better,
or would you give your clients the options to choose from and let them decide,
or would you send your mix to multiple mastering engineers and pick the one you or your clients like the best?

and when you can achieve the competitive loudness and tight balance that already works well,
what would be the thing that your mixes can get from the mastering?
well, if it's an album, cohesiveness would be the thing that you can expect to get,
but what are you looking for when it's sending a single for mastering?

i've seen some of the mixes that don't have mastering credit which i assume they were not sent to the mastering studio.
even though sometimes the song is mastered but just not credited.
do some of your works actually get released without being mastered?

have you been asked to provide stems for the stem mastering?
i guess because your mixes have tight balance and integrity within the mix that there'd be no point doing that.
but if you are asked, would you refuse to send stems, or would you let them do what they want to do?

and do you ever revisit your mix after having a listen to the master and resubmit the mix
because you feel that could improve the final result?
My guess is they probably never send stems to mastering because when you hire guys like Serban and John, you’re paying for their taste and for their mixing decisions. You hire people like that to enhance the sonics of your mix and also to make the critical decisions on the overall balance of your song so it properly translates to the outside world. They’ve spent tens of thousands of hours in an environment they’re comfortable in, so they know exactly where everything should be sitting for optimal translation. They’ve also worked with many of the worlds best mastering engineers, so they know exactly how their mixes will hold up in the mastering phase too. They probably even know how each mastering engineer’s taste would affect the song, and can tweak their mixes accordingly depending on who they’re sending it to.

Mastering isn’t supposed to be mixing 2.0… it’s the very last little bit of extra polish before the tracks go out to the world. When you hire top mixers, their mix balance decisions are part of what you’re paying for, so I would assume they never send stems to mastering (unless it’s sound for picture)
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Old 22nd October 2020 | Show parent
  #2004
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TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by OwensDrumming View Post
My guess is they probably never send stems to mastering because when you hire guys like Serban and John, you’re paying for their taste and for their mixing decisions. You hire people like that to enhance the sonics of your mix and also to make the critical decisions on the overall balance of your song so it properly translates to the outside world. They’ve spent tens of thousands of hours in an environment they’re comfortable in, so they know exactly where everything should be sitting for optimal translation. They’ve also worked with many of the worlds best mastering engineers, so they know exactly how their mixes will hold up in the mastering phase too. They probably even know how each mastering engineer’s taste would affect the song, and can tweak their mixes accordingly depending on who they’re sending it to.

Mastering isn’t supposed to be mixing 2.0… it’s the very last little bit of extra polish before the tracks go out to the world. When you hire top mixers, their mix balance decisions are part of what you’re paying for, so I would assume they never send stems to mastering (unless it’s sound for picture)

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldvodka View Post
hi john, thank you for keep answering people's questions here.
informations and experience you're sharing are really valuable for me.

i wanted to ask about mastering if you don't mind.
you guys seem to stick with maybe three guys for the most of the times,
and i wonder how do you decide which mastering engineer to go with each time?
is it you deciding that this mastering engineer's style would fit the song better,
or would you give your clients the options to choose from and let them decide,
or would you send your mix to multiple mastering engineers and pick the one you or your clients like the best?

and when you can achieve the competitive loudness and tight balance that already works well,
what would be the thing that your mixes can get from the mastering?
well, if it's an album, cohesiveness would be the thing that you can expect to get,
but what are you looking for when it's sending a single for mastering?

i've seen some of the mixes that don't have mastering credit which i assume they were not sent to the mastering studio.
even though sometimes the song is mastered but just not credited.
do some of your works actually get released without being mastered?

have you been asked to provide stems for the stem mastering?
i guess because your mixes have tight balance and integrity within the mix that there'd be no point doing that.
but if you are asked, would you refuse to send stems, or would you let them do what they want to do?

and do you ever revisit your mix after having a listen to the master and resubmit the mix
because you feel that could improve the final result?

@ OwensDrumming has most of this right.

There are many great mastering engineers out there; the select few that we use or recommend are mostly out of complete trust in their work. They know what we are sending, we know what they will do to it. By the point it gets to mastering, our goal is to give the mastering engineer very little or nothing to do. We need a mastering engineer that is not afraid to do little to nothing, but when needed knows what to do to blend songs into albums, fix problems without creating others, and be another level of quality control.

We dont like to do the try multiple mastering engineers approach, but sometimes clients do ask us to do this.

What I'm looking for from mastering is "does it sound better after mastering". If it isn't better it better be the same. It is usually a very slight difference with our mixes and so subtle to figure out if it is better.

Truth is we are often so busy that we often don't have the time to review every master so we need someone that we can trust completely. We review as many masters as we can, but some go by without a review.

Yes, some songs get released without mastering. This is not our preference and it is usually done without our knowledge. We'll be asking ourselves "what happened to that project?" to find out it was released from the mix sent for artist/producer review.

We've never sent stems to mastering and would not if asked. We should be asked to fix any issues, not pass the problem down the line.

Yes, we will do revisions after mastering and this happens on occasion. Sometimes it is something the artist, producer, catches. Sometimes it is to fit better within an album sequence.
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Old 22nd October 2020 | Show parent
  #2005
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes View Post
@ OwensDrumming has most of this right.

There are many great mastering engineers out there; the select few that we use or recommend are mostly out of complete trust in their work. They know what we are sending, we know what they will do to it. By the point it gets to mastering, our goal is to give the mastering engineer very little or nothing to do. We need a mastering engineer that is not afraid to do little to nothing, but when needed knows what to do to blend songs into albums, fix problems without creating others, and be another level of quality control.

We dont like to do the try multiple mastering engineers approach, but sometimes clients do ask us to do this.

What I'm looking for from mastering is "does it sound better after mastering". If it isn't better it better be the same. It is usually a very slight difference with our mixes and so subtle to figure out if it is better.

Truth is we are often so busy that we often don't have the time to review every master so we need someone that we can trust completely. We review as many masters as we can, but some go by without a review.

Yes, some songs get released without mastering. This is not our preference and it is usually done without our knowledge. We'll be asking ourselves "what happened to that project?" to find out it was released from the mix sent for artist/producer review.

We've never sent stems to mastering and would not if asked. We should be asked to fix any issues, not pass the problem down the line.

Yes, we will do revisions after mastering and this happens on occasion. Sometimes it is something the artist, producer, catches. Sometimes it is to fit better within an album sequence.
Hey John, so if your goal is to give the mastering engineer little or nothing to do, I guess you take care of the LUFS too.

What’s your approach with that, how do you hit the lufs that you want? And what’s your go-to number of lufs?

I always struggle with that.
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Old 23rd October 2020 | Show parent
  #2006
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes View Post
@ OwensDrumming has most of this right.

There are many great mastering engineers out there; the select few that we use or recommend are mostly out of complete trust in their work. They know what we are sending, we know what they will do to it. By the point it gets to mastering, our goal is to give the mastering engineer very little or nothing to do. We need a mastering engineer that is not afraid to do little to nothing, but when needed knows what to do to blend songs into albums, fix problems without creating others, and be another level of quality control.

We dont like to do the try multiple mastering engineers approach, but sometimes clients do ask us to do this.

What I'm looking for from mastering is "does it sound better after mastering". If it isn't better it better be the same. It is usually a very slight difference with our mixes and so subtle to figure out if it is better.

Truth is we are often so busy that we often don't have the time to review every master so we need someone that we can trust completely. We review as many masters as we can, but some go by without a review.

Yes, some songs get released without mastering. This is not our preference and it is usually done without our knowledge. We'll be asking ourselves "what happened to that project?" to find out it was released from the mix sent for artist/producer review.

We've never sent stems to mastering and would not if asked. We should be asked to fix any issues, not pass the problem down the line.

Yes, we will do revisions after mastering and this happens on occasion. Sometimes it is something the artist, producer, catches. Sometimes it is to fit better within an album sequence.

thank you for reading my long questions and answering them, your answers are helpful, eye opening and reassuring.



@ OwensDrumming thank you for sharing your opinions, what you said makes sense.
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Old 23rd October 2020 | Show parent
  #2007
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwardss44 View Post
Hey John, so if your goal is to give the mastering engineer little or nothing to do, I guess you take care of the LUFS too.

What’s your approach with that, how do you hit the lufs that you want? And what’s your go-to number of lufs?

I always struggle with that.
you might want to check this out if you haven't already.

Mix Bus Processing
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Old 23rd October 2020
  #2008
Gear Addict
 

A year ago a friend give me the stems of Sia-The Greatest mixed by Serban i guess. When i compare the stems vs master i can clearly hear differences between two, but only in chorus. The verse sound identical. I can't say what they did on mastering but, the chorus seems heavily compressed and the bass maybe more focused. There is couple of db's of volume loss as well and maybe some space lose?

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Old 23rd October 2020 | Show parent
  #2009
Here for the gear
 



Immaculate vocals by Serban... the BGV's in particular.

Excited for the new AG album... no doubt there'll be more Serban for us to appreciate by this time next week
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Old 23rd October 2020
  #2010
Lives for gear
 

Oh Yeah ! Ariana for el presidente.

Beautiful and creative vocal indeed.

Cheers
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