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Serban Ghenea Mixes - all ITB?
Old 6 days ago
  #721
Quote:
Originally Posted by E Artsy Moods View Post
Absolutely no offense taken
I totally agree and wrote the news fast, and in fact I thought it was the stems, which is why I found it relevant to talk about Serban work.
But after reading at the bottom of the description it's not clear as the websites says "Included Tracks/Stems"... After reading the FAQ it seems those are the recorded tracks bussed together but with no mix on them... I'll send them an email to clarify this!
It does seem weird - if you’ve only got “stems” you can’t really learn how to mix, only analyse...but if you’ve only got bussed together parts, you can’t really recreate the existing mix (even with ability) either!
Old 6 days ago
  #722
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
I definitely see the value in it. I think it goes well beyond learning to mix. We're in "freely-sample, pay the original their share if money gets made" culture now. Its a way to profit off this at the front end. And if the parts ever get used in something else that's big down the road, they'll get that money too. Meanwhile, song exposure goes up because all the up-and-coming producers make their remixes and edits. Win-win-win model playing to 2019 music making culture.
I think you’re missing my point a bit.

They DON’T want people to be using their samples - at least, that’s the stated position - that’s why you can’t export audio from the sessions. Sure if someone manages it (not hard) and creates a massive hit whilst naively failing to clear a sample there’ll be a profit to be had, but it’s not exactly likely.

It’s definite front end earnings.

But - as an end user, if you’re only receiving “stems” you can’t use them to learn to mix, only analyse. So it’s kind of false advertising.

In this case, the “mixer” will has received many more parts than are represented here.

I still don’t know if they’re pre or post mix, but the site definitely says “multitracks”. So “stems” should not be the right term. But they ARE clearly stems.

So I’m confused!
Old 6 days ago
  #723
Gear Guru
If you use samples without clearing them it's theft plain and simple.......
Old 6 days ago
  #724
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7+1 View Post
Yes. This needs to stop.

This album was tracked on Apollo. And I mixed it all ITB. Full of "Analog" tones..

https://music.apple.com/us/album/ove...1?i=1436544600

Not trying at all to derail. My apologies, just this statement just needs to stop.
This sounds wonderful. If this measures low on some subjective, fuzzy metric of "analogness", the correct conclusion is that the metric is bulls#it. This recording sounds great.

Last edited by Philter; 6 days ago at 04:14 PM..
Old 6 days ago
  #725
I just got the answer from MixTheMusic.

So they are "mostly" stems with the mix engineer's job done and printed; they did wrote multitrack/stems for 2 reasons:

First the rightholders prefered the word multitracks which seems more self explanatory for most peoples who aren't really pro audio engineers.

Secondly some of the older tracks (like the Def Leapard ones) don't have fades in/out, vocal riding or buss comp printed on it, because for example the console automations weren't written on those tracks tapes for future recall options, so they aren't "really" stems even if the other treatments done by the mix engineer were printed.

90% of the projects provided post 2000 are made of real stems. (Good chances are that the Serban ones are real stems)

They will try to get raw (read not mixed) tracks in the future, to compare the raw vs mixed tracks.
Old 6 days ago
  #726
Lives for gear
 
Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
This sounds wonderful. If this measures low on some subjective, fuzzy metric of "analogness", the correct conclusion is that the metric is bulls#it. This recording sounds great.

Hope that wasn't directed at me since his post was made for me and responded to by me. I made it absolutely clear that 7 + 1's mix sounded GREAT. It did not sound like an old school analog mix though. It has every characteristic of a modern mix unlike the mix Psycho posted which to my ears almost sounded as if the drums were tracked to tape. I'm not being obtuse here. Just making observations and stating an opinion.
Old 6 days ago
  #727
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
Hope that wasn't directed at me since his post was made for me and responded to by me. I made it absolutely clear that 7 + 1's mix sounded GREAT. It did not sound like an old school analog mix though. It has every characteristic of a modern mix unlike the mix Psycho posted which to my ears almost sounded as if the drums were tracked to tape. Just to clarify, I'm not being combative here. Just making observations and stating an opinion.
We're listening for different things in older recordings. What I hear is a careful attention to the entire frequency spectrum achieved through careful arrangement and recording. I associate that with old recordings, when people were really working out the parts and pushing the technology as far as it would go. I just can't get past that and care about subtle differences in saturation of the medium. It seems totally off topic to making good recordings. In 1967 no one was chasing the sound of wax cylinders. It just seems like misplaced effort to me when there's so much more important stuff that goes overlooked. That's what I mean about the metric not being useful.

Nothing personal, maybe you don't really care about it that much either. Or maybe it's a sign that you take your job more seriously than I do, to care about such details! In my opinion the saturation thing is getting overdone and I believe it's a lost opportunity in many cases, where the dynamic range and neutral frequency response of digital could be used to better effect than simulating the limitations of antiquated media. I like the mix PM posted and if I wasn't already listening critically, already annoyed by Ariana Grande music being discussed seriously between adults, I would do nothing but enjoy it. But if it turns into a debate about analog saturation, I will say the drum transients poke through in a way that I don't hear in old analog recordings, and the guitars and vocals are kind of a muddle with all the saturation, and it's possible the song could be better served without such a focus on making it sound "analog". But I like the way it sounds, I couldn't have done better myself, it's totally possible I'm wrong, and such thoughts would never occur to me outside the context of this thread anyway. My own latest hard rock recording is "meh" so I would never get into a pissing match over it. 100% armchair quarterbacking here.
Old 6 days ago
  #728
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I think you’re missing my point a bit.

They DON’T want people to be using their samples - at least, that’s the stated position - that’s why you can’t export audio from the sessions. Sure if someone manages it (not hard) and creates a massive hit whilst naively failing to clear a sample there’ll be a profit to be had, but it’s not exactly likely.

It’s definite front end earnings.

But - as an end user, if you’re only receiving “stems” you can’t use them to learn to mix, only analyse. So it’s kind of false advertising.

In this case, the “mixer” will has received many more parts than are represented here.

I still don’t know if they’re pre or post mix, but the site definitely says “multitracks”. So “stems” should not be the right term. But they ARE clearly stems.

So I’m confused!
I was just talking about the strategy of releasing stems, in general. These aren't the only ones out there, its becoming more common.

Of course they'll get ripped and used in other stuff, that's a given and the labels know it. Whether that stuff makes money is a long shot, of course. But people are actively TRYING to get sampled now because its free money. So by releasing stems you get a new additional revenue stream from a song (stem purchases), a greater shot at free money down the road, and track promo. Solid business move in 2019.
Old 6 days ago
  #729
Gear Guru
Back in the day they were trying to have the recording gear clean for the most part....... irony abounds!...
Old 6 days ago
  #730
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Back in the day they were trying to have the recording gear clean for the most part....... irony abounds!...
Don't know what you got till its gone. -Cinderella
Old 6 days ago
  #731
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
We're listening for different things in older recordings. What I hear is a careful attention to the entire frequency spectrum achieved through careful arrangement and recording. I associate that with old recordings, when people were really working out the parts and pushing the technology as far as it would go. I just can't get past that and care about subtle differences in saturation of the medium. It seems totally off topic to making good recordings. In 1967 no one was chasing the sound of wax cylinders. It just seems like misplaced effort to me when there's so much more important stuff that goes overlooked. That's what I mean about the metric not being useful.

Nothing personal, maybe you don't really care about it that much either. Or maybe it's a sign that you take your job more seriously than I do, to care about such details! In my opinion the saturation thing is getting overdone and I believe it's a lost opportunity in many cases, where the dynamic range and neutral frequency response of digital could be used to better effect than simulating the limitations of antiquated media. I like the mix PM posted and if I wasn't already listening critically, already annoyed by Ariana Grande music being discussed seriously between adults, I would do nothing but enjoy it. But if it turns into a debate about analog saturation, I will say the drum transients poke through in a way that I don't hear in old analog recordings, and the guitars and vocals are kind of a muddle with all the saturation, and it's possible the song could be better served without such a focus on making it sound "analog". But I like the way it sounds, I couldn't have done better myself, it's totally possible I'm wrong, and such thoughts would never occur to me outside the context of this thread anyway. My own latest hard rock recording is "meh" so I would never get into a pissing match over it. 100% armchair quarterbacking here.
I guess it comes down to how you define an analog sounding mix. I personally think of records that Mutt Lang did or other 80s era recordings. Even then you have some golden recordings and some bad ones. But most of them are plush to the ear. Full spacial realism that often reverberated throughout the mix. Not flat and dry like we hear so often now. Sure there’s saturation from tape/console but that’s not the only variable.
Old 6 days ago
  #732
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
I like the mix PM posted and if I wasn't already listening critically, already annoyed by Ariana Grande music being discussed seriously between adults, I would do nothing but enjoy it.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxplayerz View Post
I guess it comes down to how you define an analog sounding mix. I personally think of records that Mutt Lang did or other 80s era recordings. Even then you have some golden recordings and some bad ones. But most of them are plush to the ear. Full spacial realism that often reverberated throughout the mix. Not flat and dry like we hear so often now. Sure there’s saturation from tape/console but that’s not the only variable.
Totally agree and I would add to that the idea that an "analog" mix is more about the vibe than it is about sonic perfection. Those two ideas get conflated yet they are not the same. They usually live at opposite ends of the spectrum IMO. I think PM was aiming for a 'sound' and he hit the bullseye dead center. philter has a point about the overuse of saturation/distortion etc. but really the technique isn't important, only the end result.
Old 6 days ago
  #733
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
I like the mix PM posted and if I wasn't already listening critically, already annoyed by Ariana Grande music being discussed seriously between adults,
Do you feel the same about discussing Pixar movies and techniques? Or the behind the scenes of designing and implementing Disney World attractions? Etc etc?

Adults are able to remove their own tastes from the equation and objectively discuss and evaluate the techniques of massive money-makers targeting younger people, who tend to be the largest market by far when it comes to many branches of the entertainment business. Your statement here feels more teenage than adult tbh.
Old 6 days ago
  #734
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Do you feel the same about discussing Pixar movies and techniques? Or the behind the scenes of designing and implementing Disney World attractions? Etc etc?
More or less, yes. I get it, if you can worry about the engineering enough, you don't have to worry if you like the music. That's just not for me, I would rather work in a bank, or drive a taxi like Philip Glass. Some days when I'm working on music I don't like, to get paid, I feel like I designed my own personal little hell. To each his own. I came into this for the music. The technology is a chore that I happened to be good at. Still a chore.

Quote:
Adults are able to remove their own tastes from the equation and objectively discuss and evaluate the techniques of massive money-makers targeting younger people, who tend to be the largest market by far when it comes to many branches of the entertainment business. Your statement here feels more teenage than adult tbh.
The right word is not adults. There's a rude phrase for that objective removal of taste in service of money, but I won't say it out loud.

There are actually still adults out in the world who have other priorities than big money. Not making a judgement call on the people who do prioritize that, or who don't have a choice about it, but saying, it ain't for me, and it don't mean you're an adult. I'm father to two young boys and raising them well is the only thing I've ever done that really makes me feel like an adult, that challenges me on some adult level.

Last edited by Philter; 6 days ago at 09:50 PM..
Old 6 days ago
  #735
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
More or less, yes. I get it, if you can worry about the engineering enough, you don't have to worry if you like the music. That's just not for me, I would rather work in a bank, or drive a taxi like Philip Glass. Some days when I'm working on music I don't like, to get paid, I feel like I designed my own personal little hell. To each his own. I came into this for the music. The technology is a chore that I happened to be good at. Still a chore.



The right word is not adults. There's a rude phrase for that objective removal of taste in service of money, but I won't say it out loud.

There are actually still adults out in the world who have other priorities than big money. Not making a judgement call on the people who do prioritize that, or who don't have a choice about it, but saying, it ain't for me, and it don't mean you're an adult. I'm father to two young boys and raising them well is the only thing I've ever done that really makes me feel like an adult, that challenges me on some adult level.
Fair enough, but you're, by your own choice, in a Serban Ghenea thread, complaining that people are talking about his mixdowns.
Old 6 days ago
  #736
Gear Guru
Good luck being artistic because you want to make money. Better chance of saying I'm going to be lucky and make it rich!.....
Old 6 days ago
  #737
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Fair enough, but you're, by your own choice, in a Serban Ghenea thread, complaining that people are talking about his mixdowns.
I really came into it about something else, that mysterious "analog" word in the context of older mixes.
Old 6 days ago
  #738
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Good luck being artistic because you want to make money. Better chance of saying I'm going to be lucky and make it rich!.....
No most people recognize those two things are usually mutually exclusive once you stop kidding yourself about what you really care about. And then there's David Bowie. Nobody expects the David Bowie.
Old 6 days ago
  #739
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
No most people recognize those two things are usually mutually exclusive once you stop kidding yourself about what you really care about. And then there's David Bowie. Nobody expects the David Bowie.
LOL....Yeah but he was really good looking........so there's that.
Old 6 days ago
  #740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
No most people recognize those two things are usually mutually exclusive once you stop kidding yourself about what you really care about. And then there's David Bowie. Nobody expects the David Bowie.

Or maybe your subjective opinion of what constitutes "art" isn't the end-all definition.

And maybe you're making pop music because you enjoy making pop music, not because you're in it for the money.

And maybe making money doesn't indicate greed, but rather means that you need to provide for others.

And maybe working in music, even if it's not your favorite genre, is preferable to working a job you hate so that you can look down your artistically uncompromising nose at those who make music you don't like.
Old 6 days ago
  #741
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Podgorny View Post
Or maybe your subjective opinion of what constitutes "art" isn't the end-all definition.

And maybe you're making pop music because you enjoy making pop music, not because you're in it for the money.

And maybe making money doesn't indicate greed, but rather means that you need to provide for others.

And maybe working in music, even if it's not your favorite genre, is preferable to working a job you hate so that you can look down your artistically uncompromising nose at those who make music you don't like.
You got me, if you like Ariana Grande's music, who am I to judge? I'm certainly in the minority... it's called pop because, well, it's popular! More power to you. And I did acknowledge that people need to earn a living... I would not recommend the music business as a stable job choice, but sometimes we don't really expect to wake up and find ourselves where we do. And I compromise all the time... I take trap sessions anytime I want a wallet full of cash.
Old 6 days ago
  #742
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
if you can worry about the engineering enough, you don't have to worry if you like the music ... Some days when I'm working on music I don't like, to get paid, I feel like I designed my own personal little hell. To each his own. I came into this for the music.
So did I.

The difference between us, apparently, is that I like all kinds of music and I enjoy the challenge of recording it, no matter what it is. I don't consider any of it "hell", and I have recorded a band where the guitarist sawed on his strings with a pair of metal rasps with his amp on "10". I have recorded Tibetan monks playing flutes made from the femurs of their deceased comrades. I have recorded groups that are just hand drums and chanting. I recorded little children singing in Hebrew to a Casio. I recorded a guy with electrified music boxes.

I have also recorded Grammy-winning jazz musicians, award-winning blues artists, Broadway show tunes, heavy metal bands, rock groups, Irish music, bluegrass, punk, rap, classical orchestral and chamber music, spoken-word poetry, and yes, Pop. It's all good and it's all interesting and fun to me.

I for one, am not "worrying" about the engineering to distract myself from a self-imposed "hell" created by my own narrow tastes. I enjoy the challenge of engineering and require no distraction because I do not feel myself to be in "hell".

In any case, you don't have to "like" a piece of music recorded by a professional to learn something about audio from studying how it was done.

Quote:
There's a rude phrase for that objective removal of taste in service of money,

I could think of a couple of rude phrases for people who need to make excuses (like "money" for example) for why someone's taste might differ from their own. You have some nerve putting your own favorite style on a pedestal and accusing anyone who likes something else of being a you-know-what.

Last edited by joeq; 6 days ago at 11:48 PM..
Old 6 days ago
  #743
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
So did I.

The difference between us, apparently, is that I like all kinds of music and I enjoy the challenge of recording it, no matter what it is. I don't consider any of it "hell", and I have recorded a band where the guitarist sawed on his strings with a pair of metal rasps with his amp on "10". I have recorded Tibetan monks playing flutes made from the femurs of their deceased comrades. I have recorded groups that are just hand drums and chanting. I recorded little children singing in Hebrew to a Casio. I recorded a guy with electrified music boxes.

I have also recorded Grammy-winning jazz musicians, award-winning blues artists, Broadway show tunes, heavy metal bands, rock groups, Irish music, bluegrass, punk, rap, classical orchestral and chamber music, spoken-word poetry, and yes, Pop. It's all good and it's all interesting and fun to me.

I for one, am not "worrying" about the engineering to distract myself from a self-imposed "hell" created by my own narrow tastes. I enjoy the challenge of engineering and require no distraction because I do not feel myself to be in "hell".

In any case, you don't have to "like" a piece of music recorded by a professional to learn something about audio from studying how it was done.



I could think of a couple of rude phrases for people who need to make excuses (like "money" for example) for why someone's taste might from their own. You have some nerve putting your own favorite style on a pedestal and accusing anyone who likes something else of being a you-know-what.
Stupid argument we're having, you're taking me out of context and flipping out about it. You're also assuming all kinds of stuff about me that you don't know. You don't know anything about my tastes except apparently I don't love every thing ever recorded, Ariana Grande in particular. Big deal. How much of music is that, .001%? Why did this strike such a nerve for you? There's a thing on this forum where people get personal over stupid sh1t that was never personal. Maybe you're such a hot shot that you forget what it's like to record schlock to make rent? How can you love everything you work on, didn't you ever record schlock? How can you not have taste, not dislike anything? Bad music is like evil, we wouldn't know good without it.

Last edited by Philter; 6 days ago at 12:34 AM..
Old 6 days ago
  #744
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
You got me, if you like Ariana Grande's music, who am I to judge?
Well, I can tell you that I GENUINELY LIKE Ariana Grande. She's as talented and hardworking as they come.
Old 6 days ago
  #745
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Podgorny View Post
Well, I can tell you that I GENUINELY LIKE Ariana Grande. She's as talented and hardworking as they come.
I'm sure she is, I said her music, not her person. Are we worried she;s lurking on gearslutz?
Old 6 days ago
  #746
Gear Head
 

The last page of this thread has nothing to do with SG.
Old 6 days ago
  #747
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by N1Greg View Post
The last page of this thread has nothing to do with SG.
Unfortunately it’s all about the strat
Old 6 days ago
  #748
Quote:
Originally Posted by E Artsy Moods View Post
I just got the answer from MixTheMusic.

So they are "mostly" stems with the mix engineer's job done and printed; they did wrote multitrack/stems for 2 reasons:

First the rightholders prefered the word multitracks which seems more self explanatory for most peoples who aren't really pro audio engineers.

Secondly some of the older tracks (like the Def Leapard ones) don't have fades in/out, vocal riding or buss comp printed on it, because for example the console automations weren't written on those tracks tapes for future recall options, so they aren't "really" stems even if the other treatments done by the mix engineer were printed.

90% of the projects provided post 2000 are made of real stems. (Good chances are that the Serban ones are real stems)

They will try to get raw (read not mixed) tracks in the future, to compare the raw vs mixed tracks.
Thanks for the detective work.

It seems really stupid that a site called "mixthemusic" and aimed at people wanting "multitracks" to work with are then provided with purely "stems" (used correctly) but then mislabeled as "multitracks"...is it just me or can you not actually learn to "mix the music" here? I'll tell you how to do a mix as good as Serbans...balance his stems at 0!

without wishing to pour rain on someone else's idea, they should be marketing this properly. It's not resources to mix yourself, it's tools to deconstruct someone else's. Which is worthwhile in itself, it's just being horribly mismarketed.
Old 6 days ago
  #749
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
I was just talking about the strategy of releasing stems, in general. These aren't the only ones out there, its becoming more common.

Of course they'll get ripped and used in other stuff, that's a given and the labels know it. Whether that stuff makes money is a long shot, of course. But people are actively TRYING to get sampled now because its free money. So by releasing stems you get a new additional revenue stream from a song (stem purchases), a greater shot at free money down the road, and track promo. Solid business move in 2019.
For sure it's for the money - effectively another sync opportunity - and certainly promo - but actively trying to get illegally sampled and sue? maybe not. Maybe there'll be the odd case of someone trying to clear a sample, but in this day and age the fees for use of the master have been decimated since it's relatively easy to get someone to recreate it, and then you only have to clear publishing, so it's not exactly a gold mine even if someone takes that path.
Old 6 days ago
  #750
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
I like the mix PM posted and if I wasn't already listening critically, already annoyed by Ariana Grande music being discussed seriously between adults, I would do nothing but enjoy it. But if it turns into a debate about analog saturation, I will say the drum transients poke through in a way that I don't hear in old analog recordings, and the guitars and vocals are kind of a muddle with all the saturation, and it's possible the song could be better served without such a focus on making it sound "analog". But I like the way it sounds, I couldn't have done better myself, it's totally possible I'm wrong, and such thoughts would never occur to me outside the context of this thread anyway. My own latest hard rock recording is "meh" so I would never get into a pissing match over it. 100% armchair quarterbacking here.
Thank you - I'd also like to point out that I wasn't actually aiming to make it sound like an "old analogue recording". I wanted a flavour of punk and new wave, and everything straining at the edge of overloading, but I also wanted it to sound "current". In the same vibe I guess that people in (for example) Jack White's world of the Raconteurs and The Dead Weather, or other acts in that ilk, wouldn't be mistaken for a 70s or 80s recording.

After all - there's plenty of analogue records with transients!

As for the guitar/vocal muddle...that's deliberate they wanted a wall of sound and slightly buried vocals, and so did I! It'd have sounded weird with a "Clearmountain" precision vibe...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
I think PM was aiming for a 'sound' and he hit the bullseye dead center. philter has a point about the overuse of saturation/distortion etc. but really the technique isn't important, only the end result.
Thanks again! I posted this one earlier:

https://open.spotify.com/track/3wUCw...QNCAklxtlNWaYQ

this is much more of a "2000s SSL rock vibe", or at least that's what I was aiming for! I'm NOT trying to saturate everything or bring it to the edge of distortion!

(the band is from Switzerland/Italy so native English speakers might notice the odd accented word...!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
MI'm father to two young boys and raising them well is the only thing I've ever done that really makes me feel like an adult, that challenges me on some adult level.
I'm with you on that! That and things like buying houses and stuff...
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