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Uprading Monitors. Yamaha HS8 or Focal 6.5 Studio Monitors
Old 26th April 2018
  #31
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Jantex's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Octopussy View Post
Thanks man.

So. Speaker is only 5%? Really?

I’m still in the same boat. The hs8 seem solid. So, if I’m a good mixer and a good musician with good ears; is the jump to the focals going to make my job easier and help me make mixes that (aren’t better let’s say) translate across systems better? My mixes are pretty good but I’m tired of taking my laptop to the car and the boom box to check the low end. Lol. My current monitors don’t have the range without my sub (krk 10) and I’d rather eliminate the sub.

So I need a new speaker. I could buy the hs8 and use the leftovers for another piece of gear or I can just get the focal. I’d like this to be a piece that can last me forever and not feel the need to upgrade in the future
It depends, in case you opt for some expensive modern speakers like Kii Three or Genelecs which can in a way help with acoustical integration into space, then it is more. But otherwise it is pretty insignificant. Some speakers might perform slightly better in your room than others, having all other variables fixed.

Look, the majority of the studio speakers is quited with a deviation less than +/- 3dB over certain frequency range. Your room might add up to 30dB of deviation. Even the best rooms can only hardly perform in an interval of +/- 5dB. Usually additional equalization is required or digital room compensation.

So it is totally unimportant in majority of the cases whether speaker is +/- 1dB 40Hz-20kHz or +/-3 dB, while your room creates +/- 30dB (depending on the positioning, size and treatment).

Your trips to car and sudden surprises are not a result of your speakers, but your room and bad monitor positioning.

In your case I would rather invest 300USD for Sonarworks and measurement mic. You will gain much more from that than from change of speakers. Your speakers cover a pretty sufficient range for mixing and in good room perform really well actually.

If you need lowest lows you can add a subwoofer (but be ready to take time to find the best position in a room, to set the correct phase and set the level and HP filter for bass management. Or use some decent headphones for your low end.
Old 26th April 2018
  #32
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Jeff Hayat's Avatar
 

I would not say that the monitor is only 5%, but Jantex does have a point that you can indeed do hi-end production w/the Yamaha HS range, in the proper room w/the proper skill. Think of how many great sounding albums were recorded and mixed on NS-10s.

Cheers.
Old 26th April 2018
  #33
Gear Maniac
It’s not that I need super lows. I’m recording music with real instruments for rock/pop etc. Low end and low mid is always critical right? I don’t get that with my nht m00 or my lrs25p and I’d like to eliminate the krk rockit 8 from my life. Lol.

That being said. It sounds like you think mixes done by a good engineer (pro) in a sub par (although treated and correct positioning) will not differ much between the hs8 or a pair of focal monitors, is that right?

I would hope and assume for that much difference in price that the focal have some more accurate characteristics that are more conducive for accurate mixes and not just a brand name. But maybe not, that’s why I’m here.

Also. I take my monitors to different locations to mix sometimes. I’m never gonna have a perfect pro designed, modally perfect, golden ration room. Very unlikely. That’s why I pay for my serious work to be done in a studio. When the budget isn’t there, I need something I can rely on that will last for a long time.

That’s where I’m at.

I appreciate your feedback

QUOTE=Jantex;13281030]It depends, in case you opt for some expensive modern speakers like Kii Three or Genelecs which can in a way help with acoustical integration into space, then it is more. But otherwise it is pretty insignificant. Some speakers might perform slightly better in your room than others, having all other variables fixed.

Look, the majority of the studio speakers is quited with a deviation less than +/- 3dB over certain frequency range. Your room might add up to 30dB of deviation. Even the best rooms can only hardly perform in an interval of +/- 5dB. Usually additional equalization is required or digital room compensation.

So it is totally unimportant in majority of the cases whether speaker is +/- 1dB 40Hz-20kHz or +/-3 dB, while your room creates +/- 30dB (depending on the positioning, size and treatment).

Your trips to car and sudden surprises are not a result of your speakers, but your room and bad monitor positioning.

In your case I would rather invest 300USD for Sonarworks and measurement mic. You will gain much more from that than from change of speakers. Your speakers cover a pretty sufficient range for mixing and in good room perform really well actually.

If you need lowest lows you can add a subwoofer (but be ready to take time to find the best position in a room, to set the correct phase and set the level and HP filter for bass management. Or use some decent headphones for your low end.[/QUOTE]
Old 26th April 2018
  #34
Gear Maniac
I think people on this site often underestimate and think people suck. That’s the impression I get from a lot of replies.

Yes. I could mix on my little boom box and my aura tone and if the tracks are recorded well, I’d do a pretty good job. I’ve done mixes on lots of non high end speakers that hold up well. I realize a killer dude can mix on crap and use crap gear and be amazing

That said. I need new monitors. I’d like some that will last me forever. Like my crew of amazing amps and guitars. That’s why I bought an apogee symphony and a Neve 1073. I don’t need to upgrade those (symphony at some point) for a long time.

Still the pondering continues and I’m nowhere closer to a confident decision. No, I cannot try these out in my space nor do I have a store close that I can compre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hayat View Post
I would not say that the monitor is only 5%, but Jantex does have a point that you can indeed do hi-end production w/the Yamaha HS range, in the proper room w/the proper skill. Think of how many great sounding albums were recorded and mixed on NS-10s.

Cheers.
Old 26th April 2018
  #35
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hayat View Post
I would not say that the monitor is only 5%, but Jantex does have a point that you can indeed do hi-end production w/the Yamaha HS range, in the proper room w/the proper skill. Think of how many great sounding albums were recorded and mixed on NS-10s.

Cheers.
Hi, Jeff! Can only say this: I recently listened to an older album from Daft Punk - Random Access Memories. Ridiculously good album on all levels (there is a debate of why the bassdrum is slightly shifted to the left by less than 1db on some tracks, it's probably an artistic thing, I'm fine with it). I'm sorry, I don't see something like this happening on NS10s or on any Yamaha. No wonder the mix engineer of the album, Mick Guzauski, is (also) working on his $15k Guzauski-Swist GS3A. And R.A.M. was an album intended to sound retro. I challenge any brave engineer to land similar results on a pair of Yamaha, which ever model he enjoys from the manufacturer.
Old 26th April 2018
  #36
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreiPiatra View Post
Hi, Jeff! Can only say this: I recently listened to an older album from Daft Punk - Random Access Memories. Ridiculously good album on all levels (there is a debate of why the bassdrum is slightly shifted to the left by less than 1db on some tracks, it's probably an artistic thing, I'm fine with it). I'm sorry, I don't see something like this happening on NS10s or on any Yamaha. No wonder the mix engineer of the album, Mick Guzauski, is (also) working on his $15k Guzauski-Swist GS3A. And R.A.M. was an album intended to sound retro. I challenge any brave engineer to land similar results on a pair of Yamaha, which ever model he enjoys from the manufacturer.
You can cork-sniff all you like. You're just another guy inexplicably claiming that you can only make decent music with gear that costs the same as a house. History tells us different. There's a hundred years of amazing, world-class music recordings that were made before anyone had heard of Guzauski-Swift. There are great records being mixed right now on $500 monitors. If you don't think those records are good because they weren't engineered on gear most people can only dream of affording, that's your loss.
Old 26th April 2018
  #37
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreiPiatra View Post
I discovered ATCs 2 years ago, was thinking after...can't believe I wasted so many years without this in my life.
I encourage you to think about the statement you've just made. If you really think that the years you spent producing with other monitors were a waste, then you're absolutely right.
Old 26th April 2018
  #38
Gear Maniac
Cool. You seem pretty confident and know what you’re talking about.

In A residential room with treatment. Will a higher end monitor help mixes balance and translate better? Like; a focal shape 65 vs a Yamaha hs80?

QUOTE=Max Rossell;13281410]You can cork-sniff all you like. You're just another guy inexplicably claiming that you can only make decent music with gear that costs the same as a house. History tells us different. There's a hundred years of amazing, world-class music recordings that were made before anyone had heard of Guzauski-Swift. There are great records being mixed right now on $500 monitors. If you don't think those records are good because they weren't engineered on gear most people can only dream of affording, that's your loss.[/QUOTE]
Old 26th April 2018
  #39
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Octopussy View Post
Cool. You seem pretty confident and know what you’re talking about.

In A residential room with treatment. Will a higher end monitor help mixes balance and translate better? Like; a focal shape 65 vs a Yamaha hs80?
I haven't actually worked with a Focal Shape 65 so can't comment, but people I trust have told me they're in the ballpark and it's really down to purpose and preference. Ultimately they're both sort of "high-end-of-cheap" speakers, but both very well-regarded. I personally own an HS8 pair and would happily recommend them, but like I said the Focals seem really great too.

And yeah, I'd expect with either set that once you've learned them your mixes will be way easier and more accurate.
Old 26th April 2018
  #40
Couple of points
  • Your issues with mixing bass correctly will not be solved with new monitors, no matter how expensive. It's a combination of things.
  • Monitors you know will always be easier to mix on than those you don't. So again buying a new pair, won't instantly improve your mixes. You will have to learn them.
  • In terms of low end the HS8's extend 2Hz lower than your current monitors, so they should reveal more low end (room and positioning dependent). Yamaha reckon that the HS8's should be located at least 1.5 meters away from walls or corners. So you should keep that in mind whether your room is big enough.
  • The HS8's are good monitors yes and for sure you could make pro level mixes on them, but again that will be down to your skills and learning the monitors in your room. Everyone's room is different, so no one can tell how good or bad they would sound in your room.
  • More expensive monitors, basically provide a clearer more accurate, more revealing picture of your mix. That is how they have the potential to help you get the job done quicker. But your room will still influence every monitor you use in it, so again you have to learn them.
  • The Focal Shape 65, has a slightly less extended low end than the HS8's, by 2 Hz, but they tend to be much tighter overall, but especially in the low mids and lows. The mids and highs are clearer with much better stereo imaging, and detail.
  • Focal say they have designed the Shapes with small rooms in mind. Hence the passive radiators and wider sweet spot. But this could all be marketing speak.
  • I had the HS8's and now have the Shapes. But I'm still learning them, and actually bought them just when I had learned the HS8's quite well, so to that extent it's a bit of a backward step. Although I believe only temporarily.

Sorry that was more than a couple!
Old 26th April 2018
  #41
Gear Maniac
Not totally clear on your answer but it seems like you think they’re both on the cheap side.

If it makes a significant difference, I would consider a bit more if it will help in my decision making. I do this for a living so I need to invest in my craft and feel this is an important piece.

From what I’ve gathered on this thread;

A. Speakers don’t matter. Good mixes can be made on ****ty speakers and the difference doesn’t mean much.

B. You have to spend a lot more.

Still confused. Lol

QUOTE=Max Rossell;13281451]I haven't actually worked with a Focal Shape 65 so can't comment, but people I trust have told me they're in the ballpark and it's really down to purpose and preference. Ultimately they're both sort of "high-end-of-cheap" speakers, but both very well-regarded. I personally own an HS8 pair and would happily recommend them, but like I said the Focals seem really great too.

And yeah, I'd expect with either set that once you've learned them your mixes will be way easier and more accurate.[/QUOTE]
Old 26th April 2018
  #42
Gear Head
 

To be clear, my answer is that I don't think it really matters which you choose, as they don't seem to be objectively better or worse than each other (not in the way for instance that a Genelec 8040 is better than a Behringer Truth), so the important thing is that you choose whichever feels right to you and spend time learning them. They're both really good for the money, you'll do good work on either.
Old 27th April 2018
  #43
Lives for gear
 
Jantex's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Octopussy View Post
Not totally clear on your answer but it seems like you think they’re both on the cheap side.

If it makes a significant difference, I would consider a bit more if it will help in my decision making. I do this for a living so I need to invest in my craft and feel this is an important piece.

From what I’ve gathered on this thread;

A. Speakers don’t matter. Good mixes can be made on ****ty speakers and the difference doesn’t mean much.

B. You have to spend a lot more.

Still confused. Lol
Speakers matter more the better your room is. I never sad that anything about ****ty speakers. HS8 are not ****ty speakers, they are pretty inexpensive, but definitely far from ****ty.

And yes, more expensive speakers are often better, but there are diminishing returns. Speaker for 4x the price of HS8 will be for example 7% better, but your room will skew its potential performance...mind you having 30dB dip at 100Hz followed 10dB bump at 150Hz will not give tpu better results than 32dB sip followed by 12dB bump. These deviations by improper placement and room will be able to make even top league speakers perform really bad.

I suggest you to get speakers like Kii3 or Dutch & Dutch. The later were designed with utilizing SBIR to their advantage. But mimd you, both are 10k USD speakers.
Old 27th April 2018
  #44
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Rossell View Post
You can cork-sniff all you like. You're just another guy inexplicably claiming that you can only make decent music with gear that costs the same as a house. History tells us different. There's a hundred years of amazing, world-class music recordings that were made before anyone had heard of Guzauski-Swift. There are great records being mixed right now on $500 monitors. If you don't think those records are good because they weren't engineered on gear most people can only dream of affording, that's your loss.
You're denying the benefits of progress and newer technologies in studio monitors manufacturing. I never said that you can't have good results on less expensive speakers, but it's common sense that on today's standards you need better equipment to acchieve excellent results in a given audio production. I feel like you're trying to be political correct and state something like all monitors are created equal. Well, good luck with such an assertion.
Old 27th April 2018
  #45
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreiPiatra View Post
You're denying the benefits of progress and newer technologies in studio monitors manufacturing. I never said that you can't have good results on less expensive speakers, but it's common sense that on today's standards you need better equipment to acchieve excellent results in a given audio production. I feel like you're trying to be political correct and state something like all monitors are created equal. Well, good luck with such an assertion.
I'm denying or stating no such things. My assertion is that the existence of top-range products does not render more modest products useless. You don't "need" better equipment to achieve excellent results (and the definition of "excellent" is, at best, subjective). It's nice to have, but not indispensable. If you can't do good work without your bespoke $15k nearfields, you're no kind of producer. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, the listening public will always, always prefer a great track mastered through a boom-box over a bad track made with the bleeding-edge of modern audio tech.
Old 27th April 2018
  #46
Hi Octopussy,

Thought I'd chime in with my thoughts to your question about these monitors.

I don't have these in particular, but I (a) have a [email protected] room and (b) some poor monitors (passive Alesis Monitor 1s) - moving from a pro-studio situation

However, 25 years of being a mix engineer - experience does help.

I'm currently looking at new monitors and are looking at bit higher up. Aside from the room treatment being address, I've been looking at PMC TwoTwo6 and Focal Twin6BE. I can get them for roughly the same price.

That's the pre-amble.

I *have* just done an A-B of the PMCs with my Alesis, and whilst both translated the mix well, the PMCs detailing and imagery was in a different league.
Not to the extent of the value imho, and I *think* I still preferred the Focals - for my room, with my preferences etc etc.

But the moral is (from my point of view) [email protected] speakers will get you so far, but there is great benefit from higher-end monitors.
I think with the 2 choices you've highlighted, it's going to be a user-preference towards either the Focal "sound" or Yamaha "sound"..... I think for the money, they both sound OK. Besides, you learn your new monitors anyway.

In other news, bright ball in sky, provides light and heat.

If I've missed the point of this thread, hey ho - I kinda switched off after the back-biting and b1tchfest started
Old 27th April 2018
  #47
The best answer here is to set your budget and then try and spend an afternoon at a dealer, comparing monitors within your budget. Take some music you know well (commercial and your own mixes) on a USB stick, and spend some time listening to see what you think you prefer and could work with. You might surprise yourself and find a completely different pair. There is quite a selection in the HS8-Focal Shape range.... Eve, Adam, Hedd, APS etc.

Even better still, see if you can take a couple of pairs home to demo in your room. If not, if possible then try and buy 2 or 3 pairs then demo in your room and return the two you prefer the least. Check the return policy of the store first of course.

In reality asking on the internet is like asking us to chose the ice cream you will like best. We can tell what we think is best, but it's all down to taste and your room in the end.
Old 30th April 2018
  #48
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blayz2002 View Post
The best answer here is to set your budget and then try and spend an afternoon at a dealer, comparing monitors within your budget. Take some music you know well (commercial and your own mixes) on a USB stick, and spend some time listening to see what you think you prefer and could work with. You might surprise yourself and find a completely different pair. There is quite a selection in the HS8-Focal Shape range.... Eve, Adam, Hedd, APS etc.
This exactly mirrors my recent experience. The only advice I would add is to include one or more of your own past mixes that you know have flaws, and pay some attention to how well you can perceive the flaws.

In my case I ended up walking out with the HEDDs, which was not what I expected.

John

Last edited by John Caf; 30th April 2018 at 07:10 AM.. Reason: Better words :)
Old 30th April 2018
  #49
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spambot_2's Avatar
I wholeheartedly recommend you go around visiting musical instruments retailers and try everything in your price range and also above, that will give you a good idea of how different speakers sound compared to one another.

An option you should seriously consider is a pair of modded HS8, I can't buy the zen pro mod'd ones because I'm on the other side of the pond but I mod'd mine halfway myself by removing the limiter/compressor in the woofer circuit - that made a serious difference, also according to two guys I invited to give me their opinions, one who used to sell hi-fi stuff for a living, and one who's interested but not much experienced in audio production.
Mixing drums especially got a lot easier.

So, I can't give you a more concrete advice because I haven't tried the focal and I'm biased because I myself own a pair of HS8, but I can confidently say that the HS8 are good speakers for mixing, and those are what I'd buy if I couldn't audition anything.
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