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Chandler REDD mic next to a vintage U87 Condenser Microphones
View Poll Results: Should I give in to gearlust?
Get the REDD!
35 Votes - 41.67%
Stick with the 87!
49 Votes - 58.33%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

Old 28th March 2018
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
Kroc's Avatar
Chandler REDD mic next to a vintage U87

Hi all!

I have a Chandler Limited REDD mic here at the moment, and am having a lot of fun experimenting with it and putting it up against my much-loved 1971 Neumann U87. The REDD is a fantastic mic with a lot of depth.

I just did a comparison with both mics about two feet away from me, matched to the same level, as I sang and played guitar at the same time. The REDD is going straight into a line input on my Apollo Quad. The 87 is going into my Avedis MA5 (on normal/without the 28k boost). The only processing is a touch of light RComp compression with a 2.2:1 ratio, just to pull in the vocal peaks. I'm also a little sibilant, so I have RDeEsser on the tracks to make the comparison fairer and more listenable. And there's some UAD EMT140 on there. But otherwise, no EQ or anything else. There's a little bit of background noise in some places, but that's my Macbook's fan (Grrr).
The song is 'I See Monsters' by Ryan Adams.

I thought this might be a useful comparison for people looking at the REDD, because of how ubiquitous the 87 is. It also seems like a very good example of 'Modern' vs. 'Retro' sounding gear. I love both mics for different reasons.

I'm tempted to get the REDD, but I haven't yet! So I'd love to get feedback - talk me into/out of it! If you were me, would you buy it or stick with the 87?
Which do you like best, and why?

Cheers,
Dan
Attached Files

REDD Mic - I See Monsters.mp3 (9.84 MB, 13499 views)

1971 U87 MA5 - I See Monsters.mp3 (9.84 MB, 13116 views)

Old 28th March 2018
  #2
i like the redd better... seems smoother.

i have redd.47 pre. i'd say get one of the redd.47 pres for $2000+ less than the redd mic and keep the u87.

the redd pre is quite phenomenal. with the redd mic you're paying for the pre along with the mic. might as well get the real pre with the transformers and hook any mic you want into it
Old 28th March 2018
  #3
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The REDD sounds more balanced, "more like a record" to me, but I like the sound of the 87 more on the guitar there's a bit more sparkle and there's a bit more (low-)mids, especially important for the vocals.
If money wasn't an object I'd get the REDD and put the two side by side, the REDD pointing slightly upwards and the 87 slightly downwards.
Also if you're going to want to produce records with only voice and guitar on them, I'd want to go for the REDD and then use some EQ.

That said...
Surely I'm somewhat influenced by the big difference in noise behind the tracks, and the difference in sibilance might be a factor worth considering.
Also I really don't understand why you wouldn't post 100% dry tracks for others to listen to when asking for opinions - it's worth considering how a mic will sound "in a mix" of course, but the main reason I'd personally choose a mic over another is how the mic itself sounds, and that's easier to judge with a dry track.

And on the topic of pre's, as mentioned, it might be worth a shot to try a different pre, your 87 might like being paired with an EF86-employing pre...
Old 28th March 2018
  #4
Smooth singing man

Yeah the redd sounds very nice, a bit boomy i'd say in the intro but nothing that a little bit of eq can take care off. U87 sounded nicer on the guitar but the tube in the redd helps it glue things together, you get some more harmonic content etc. The things i like with vintage neumanns that they are super balanced, and take sibilance very well. The redd exaggerate the "s" a bit more as you would expect from a newly produced mic.

I haven't done any testing with my u87s but i think the key to a really good u87 sound is to pair it with a tubeeq pultec style, have to try it!

Thanks for the test!
Old 29th March 2018
  #5
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Kroc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by musaee View Post
i like the redd better... seems smoother.

i have redd.47 pre. i'd say get one of the redd.47 pres for $2000+ less than the redd mic and keep the u87.

the redd pre is quite phenomenal. with the redd mic you're paying for the pre along with the mic. might as well get the real pre with the transformers and hook any mic you want into it
Thanks for the input! I'll keep that in mind. I've tried my 87 through the MA5, an ISA430MKII, Golden Age Pre-73, API 512C, Avedis MD7, and BAE 312A, and I really like how it pairs with the MA5 (the 28k button is super useful. That extra brightness actually pulls it closer to the REDD). I'd for sure be interested to try it with the REDD.47, but I'm not sure how much further it could improve the tone (though I quite like the 87 sound to begin with). Whereas, I think the REDD Mic does something different that would be a useful addition to my studio (currently my best tube mic is an Avantone BV12, that I may well get rid of). So I might save up for the pre down the track, because a good tube pre could definitely be a great addition.
I also feel like there's actually some use in having an amazing full tube vocal chain that you can take around in a pelican case. I'm a singer-songwriter primarily, so it could be a cool thing to take on a tour bus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spambot_2 View Post
The REDD sounds more balanced, "more like a record" to me, but I like the sound of the 87 more on the guitar there's a bit more sparkle and there's a bit more (low-)mids, especially important for the vocals.
If money wasn't an object I'd get the REDD and put the two side by side, the REDD pointing slightly upwards and the 87 slightly downwards.
Also if you're going to want to produce records with only voice and guitar on them, I'd want to go for the REDD and then use some EQ.

That said...
Surely I'm somewhat influenced by the big difference in noise behind the tracks, and the difference in sibilance might be a factor worth considering.
Also I really don't understand why you wouldn't post 100% dry tracks for others to listen to when asking for opinions - it's worth considering how a mic will sound "in a mix" of course, but the main reason I'd personally choose a mic over another is how the mic itself sounds, and that's easier to judge with a dry track.

And on the topic of pre's, as mentioned, it might be worth a shot to try a different pre, your 87 might like being paired with an EF86-employing pre...
For sure, I also prefer the 87 on guitar. The REDD has tonnes of clarity, but using the REDD on both sounds a little 'brash'. Having the dark warmth of the 87 on the guitar creates a softer background and leaves a lot more room in the midrange for the vocals to articulate.
I own the 87, and will for sure be keeping it, so I will have both at my disposal if I get the REDD. I've just been doing some live-tracking with the REDD on vocals and the 87 in figure-8 on the guitar, and it sounds really nice, with heaps of separation.
I'd definitely be interested to hear the 87 through either the REDD.47 preamp as mentioned above. I was also looking at the Dizengoff D4 which sells for about $500. Both use EF86s in the circuit. A tube pre is definitely on my list of stuff to get for the studio eventually.
I can post the completely dry tracks if it would be of interest to you? Generally I do a tiny bit of compression and add a little bit of reverb because most of the time in the real world you don't listen to completely dry tracks anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crille_mannen View Post
Smooth singing man

Yeah the redd sounds very nice, a bit boomy i'd say in the intro but nothing that a little bit of eq can take care off. U87 sounded nicer on the guitar but the tube in the redd helps it glue things together, you get some more harmonic content etc. The things i like with vintage neumanns that they are super balanced, and take sibilance very well. The redd exaggerate the "s" a bit more as you would expect from a newly produced mic.

I haven't done any testing with my u87s but i think the key to a really good u87 sound is to pair it with a tubeeq pultec style, have to try it!

Thanks for the test!
Thanks!
All great comments. For sure, neither track is even high-passed, so there's a lot of rumbly stuff going on. I actually have a Warm Audio EQP-WA (Pultec-style EQ), and it definitely rocks with the 87. The Avedis MA5 also has a '28k' button, which makes that mic similarly bright to the REDD. I love my 87 to bits, and it's definitely something I'd never want to part with. But I do like the warm tubey depth of the REDD - I think it offers a different flavor that the 87 would never replicate exactly, and vice versa. You're definitely right about the REDD bringing out more sibilance, which doesn't fuss me a lot, but definitely requires a fair amount of de-essing.

And my pleasure to do this - it seems like there aren't that many REDD clips floating around, so I'll post more soon.
Old 29th March 2018
  #6
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DougS's Avatar
 

Kind of agree with some of the other comments - I think the vocals sound better on the REDD and the guitar sounds better on the U87.
Old 29th March 2018
  #7
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What combination of settings are you using on the REDD? You’ll find different tones among the combinations.

Also try Omni on the guitar; if finger-picking and in Cardioid, try Low-Contour, Drive vs Norm etc...

Norm will be more laid back / natural organic compared to Drive.

+1 on posting dry comparison

Great voice by the way!

Last edited by adam_f; 29th March 2018 at 03:13 AM..
Old 29th March 2018
  #8
Gear Maniac
I Would Check Out The New Upton C12 Mic

The New Upton C12 or 251 would be serious contenders in my humble opinion
Old 29th March 2018
  #9
Lives for gear
 

Not only here (vox & Gtr), but in general, the REDD is a much better choice than any U87
Old 29th March 2018
  #10
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bcgood's Avatar
 

Both sound good, great sounding performance.

Since you already have a nice condenser I'd recommend getting a ribbon instead.

1. AEA R44CXE - British Update - High Output

2. Cloudlifter

3. Daking
Old 29th March 2018
  #11
m03
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m03's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by aremos View Post
Not only here (vox & Gtr), but in general, the REDD is a much better choice than any U87
I think the above examples prove that it's still subjective.
Old 29th March 2018
  #12
Both sounds good, but neither is perfect. U87 being U87, thick but little veiled, great on acoustic. Redd is more open, but sibilant, little thin and quite harsh when singing louder. I guess C12 would be better than both of these, bright without being harsh.
Old 29th March 2018
  #13
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toledo3's Avatar
 

Sometimes sibilance and headroom/distortion are linked (sometimes not). But a side effect of a chain that’s “driven” can often be exaggerated sibilance.
Old 29th March 2018
  #14
Great Song, singing and playing!!!
Old 29th March 2018
  #15
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Going against the trend and going to opine that to me the old 87 wins here. Outright. More 'rightness'. The REDD is hard. Too hard for me. Too stark. Too brash. The 87 has nothing between me and the story. I suppose it might also be perceived as less impressive. But impressive also tends to get between me and the story.
Old 29th March 2018
  #16
Gear Maniac
 
Kroc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougS View Post
Kind of agree with some of the other comments - I think the vocals sound better on the REDD and the guitar sounds better on the U87.
Totally! Using REDD on vox and the 87 on guitar in figure-8 sounds pretty dope for live-tracking acoustic stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adam_f View Post
What combination of settings are you using on the REDD? You’ll find different tones among the combinations.

Also try Omni on the guitar; if finger-picking and in Cardioid, try Low-Contour, Drive vs Norm etc...

Norm will be more laid back / natural organic compared to Drive.

+1 on posting dry comparison

Great voice by the way!
Thanks Adam!
Dry samples are attached. This was done, from memory, on normal with everything maxed out because it's a pretty quiet song. So +33dB on the mic, 0dB on the PSU. I did another vocal with the REDD set to drive on another track with a denser arrangement, and it sounded great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcgood View Post
Both sound good, great sounding performance.

Since you already have a nice condenser I'd recommend getting a ribbon instead.
Man, a R44 would be seriously tempting too, but I think this would likely get more everyday use, and as far as tube LDCs go, it kicks my Avantone BV12 to the curb. Plus I have kind of a hankering for a big ol' tube condenser. It's good for business.
I bet the REDD on vocals and a ribbon on guitar would sound pretty fantastic because of the bright/dark flavor contrast. I definitely want to get a ribbon in here at some point, but I've actually been thinking about a Coles 4038 (which would basically be a Swiss Army Ribbon) or an AT4060. I have a Cloudlifter, so am sorted on that front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m03 View Post
I think the above examples prove that it's still subjective.
For sure! I wouldn't be unhappy doing lead vocals with either - this is definitely very subjective and nit-picky. They're both great mics with different sounds, so we're talking Lamborghini versus Maserati here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyjanopan View Post
Both sounds good, but neither is perfect. U87 being U87, thick but little veiled, great on acoustic. Redd is more open, but sibilant, little thin and quite harsh when singing louder. I guess C12 would be better than both of these, bright without being harsh.
Both are definitely very workable - I've rarely been unhappy with the 87, and the MA5's 28k button gives great extra brightness to help with the muddiness (will have to post some samples of that too), but can sound a bit 'sockish', if you will. I wouldn't really call the REDD thin, or particularly harsh. It's very detailed (a lot of presence) - it gets what I guess I'd call kind of 'brash' when you really shout at it. But I'm finding that going REDD > Warm Audio WA76 > WA2A really smoothes that out. The REDD seems to give a more polished, natural sound right out of the box, where with the 87 I had to really spend time matching preamps to find something that helped it be equally revealing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prabha View Post
Great Song, singing and playing!!!
Thanks Prabha!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Going against the trend and going to opine that to me the old 87 wins here. Outright. More 'rightness'. The REDD is hard. Too hard for me. Too stark. Too brash. The 87 has nothing between me and the story. I suppose it might also be perceived as less impressive. But impressive also tends to get between me and the story.
Interesting. Great feedback. Thanks! I do like how 'comforting' the 87 sounds for this kind of task.
I'll have to post some 'normal' samples with each purely on vocals to see if you feel the same way. I'm feeling like the REDD really spotlights the midrange of whatever you put it on. If you put it on everything/on both vocals and guitar, it makes for a very forward sound. But so far I've found it works wonders to make a lead vocal pop out of otherwise darker instrumentation, especially over a thicker acoustic guitar tone, and with a rich, darker reverb behind it. It seems to hack through a mix like nothing else, especially on drive mode, while retaining a lot of warmth.

__________________

...On a side note, when is Chandler Limited going to release the "Chandler Bing"? Perhaps it could be a rack-mounted metronome. :P
(This is an April Fool's joke waiting to happen. Take note, Adam! )
Attached Files

87 MA5 Unprocessed.mp3 (5.96 MB, 10643 views)

REDD Unprocessed.mp3 (5.96 MB, 10590 views)

Old 29th March 2018
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Going against the trend and going to opine that to me the old 87 wins here. Outright. More 'rightness'. The REDD is hard. Too hard for me. Too stark. Too brash. The 87 has nothing between me and the story. I suppose it might also be perceived as less impressive. But impressive also tends to get between me and the story.
Yeah, finally got a chance to listen on monitors. Agree 100%. The U87 rounds off in a really pleasing way on peaks, whereas I find the REDD to get edgy...but there's no real lack of air in the 87 recording either. It's just more balanced.

Maybe there is an element of placement or gain staging, or how the entire chain is working together that brings it out on the REDD sample. But to me, the U87 sample sounds most pleasing and like a finished record.
Old 29th March 2018
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
Kroc's Avatar
Here are a few more clips. DMB's "Crash Into Me" this time. I tracked these clips separately, with the 87 on the guitar in figure-8, to better demonstrate the differences when each mic is being used on its own, solely for vocals. And using my Taylor 324ce-k this time for some variety.
The first two clips are totally dry, and I used the 28k button for the U87 this time, which brightens up the sound. The third clip is the REDD tracked through my Warm Audio WA76 (1176-style comp), into my WA2A (LA2A-style comp), then into my EQP-WA (Pultec-style EQ) adding about 1dB at 12kHz. This last clip is how I'd probably do things more often in practice.
Something I'm noticing is I think it's somewhat important to be backed up far enough away from the REDD, about a foot or so, or the consonants and sibilants can get kind of over-accentuated.

Peace!
Attached Files
Old 29th March 2018
  #19
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Interesting how close they feel when you put the 28k on the 87 and back off from the REDD. Only, to me the 28k is wrongness. Kills the perfect balance of the 87 dead. The frequency response shape of the old 87 is kind of like a Pultec thing, boost some, cut some a bit higher and it puts stuff in a place. A location. Putting the 28k on there cracks it wide open and kills that place off. It's now nowhere. But you know, tastes differ. And I am old and have old sonic preferences based on what stuff feels like.
Old 29th March 2018
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kroc View Post
Man, a R44 would be seriously tempting too, but I think this would likely get more everyday use, and as far as tube LDCs go, it kicks my Avantone BV12 to the curb. Plus I have kind of a hankering for a big ol' tube condenser. It's good for business.
I bet the REDD on vocals and a ribbon on guitar would sound pretty fantastic because of the bright/dark flavor contrast. I definitely want to get a ribbon in here at some point, but I've actually been thinking about a Coles 4038 (which would basically be a Swiss Army Ribbon) or an AT4060. I have a Cloudlifter, so am sorted on that front.
Yea, Coles 4038 would be really sweet

I think you should definitely get a good ribbon at some point
Old 30th March 2018
  #21
Gear Maniac
 
Kroc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Interesting how close they feel when you put the 28k on the 87 and back off from the REDD. Only, to me the 28k is wrongness. Kills the perfect balance of the 87 dead. The frequency response shape of the old 87 is kind of like a Pultec thing, boost some, cut some a bit higher and it puts stuff in a place. A location. Putting the 28k on there cracks it wide open and kills that place off. It's now nowhere. But you know, tastes differ. And I am old and have old sonic preferences based on what stuff feels like.
Interesting observations! I see what you mean. It definitely gives it more of that 'modern sparkle', but I think the REDD does it in a smoother, more flattering way.
It's interesting to compare these two. The 87 was my 'holy grail' mic that I drooled over for years before I got it, so I'm actually pretty glad that the REDD hasn't rendered it a useless piece of junk!
One thing I have found is that with denser mixes, the 87 is so dark that it gets lost. Hence why I've made use of that 28k button, or in some cases used an SM7. And before I treated my room and had to deal with excess bass buildup, the 28k button was my best friend for retaining clarity. But I think the REDD offers that type of sound much more effectively.
As you say, we all have our preferences! But it's great to compare notes, to figure out what works best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcgood View Post
Yea, Coles 4038 would be really sweet

I think you should definitely get a good ribbon at some point
For sure. I love Jason Isbell's albums, and there are a few things where he used 4038s on both vocals and guitar. It'd be a great extra color to have on the palette. For some vocals and for acoustic and electric guitar too.
Old 30th March 2018
  #22
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
different tools,different sounds.
love the redd mic.heard a pair on grand piano monday along side 251's.saaweet.
Old 30th March 2018
  #23
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For this style of music the 87 is more fitting. A Nick Drake / Ray LaMontagne sort of performance should not sound shiny and big.

The best sounding clip IMO is the first 87 clip. Natural sound with minimal, tasteful processing. It sounds like a record. I don’t think all the outboard compression and EQ in the later clips is doing you any favors.
Old 1st April 2018
  #24
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Kroc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yummerz View Post
For this style of music the 87 is more fitting. A Nick Drake / Ray LaMontagne sort of performance should not sound shiny and big.

The best sounding clip IMO is the first 87 clip. Natural sound with minimal, tasteful processing. It sounds like a record. I don’t think all the outboard compression and EQ in the later clips is doing you any favors.
I love Nick Drake and Ray LaMontagne, so I appreciate the comparison. "Pink Moon" is in my top three favorite albums.
The engineer in me knows you may be right, but the singer in me loves huge shiny vocals.
That said, I'm tracking another quiet original in a similar style to the above clips where the 87 is definitely sounding more natural.

Jury's still out on whether I keep the REDD or not! I love the detail. And I see it really excelling in places where I'd otherwise use an SM7B, such as in a dense mix where the 87 is too dark, and I want really warm airy vocals that sit at the front. But I'm still deciding whether that's a good enough reason to have it in my mic locker - though I'm sure it'd be a good studio investment regardless.
Old 2nd April 2018
  #25
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Think feel. Forget mix mechanics. Worry about whether the feel of the sound of the mic is useful for the feeling of music you want to package your statement in. Huge is great. But not necessarily the best thing for all uses.
Old 2nd April 2018
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
different tools,different sounds.
love the redd mic.heard a pair on grand piano monday along side 251's.saaweet.

I'm still loving them fairly clean on drums.
They sound just like Ed Greene on an old Barry White record.
It may have been positioning but the only lucky winner lately on drums was the fat Soundelux U99. Amazing recommendations. Thanks!

Both leave the vintage 87 in the dust here.... AEA R92 on snare and Horch Fet on kick that's all apart from ribbon room boom.

I only keep the Neumann cos people recognise them.
Old 2nd April 2018
  #27
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Kroc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Think feel. Forget mix mechanics. Worry about whether the feel of the sound of the mic is useful for the feeling of music you want to package your statement in. Huge is great. But not necessarily the best thing for all uses.
Hmm. That's a somewhat difficult thing for me to consider objectively as both artist and engineer. There are a sea of possibilities.
...But threads like this/getting other peoples' impressions really helps as a kind of public survey from audiophiles and engineers.
I do like the presence the REDD offers, and the sweet tubey goodness. Personally, as an artist, I'm a fan of a big, warm, present vocal. Radiohead's "Exit Music (For A Film)"; Jeff Buckley's "Hallelujah"; Ryan Adam's "Love Is Hell" album.
In terms of other stuff that I really vibe with in terms of overall production: John Mayer's "Continuum"; Father John Misty; Chris Stapleton; Beck's "Sea Change"; Phoebe Bridgers' "Stranger In The Alps" album.
The music I write is quite varied dynamically. I do louder full band stuff too. I'd describe my genre as Indie Rock/Soul. So a more polished vocal sound isn't out of the question. I'm curious as to how a 47-type like a Flea 47 would do next to the REDD, as I think a lot of the artists I mentioned above did many of those tracks through 47s. But I think the REDD would be a more versatile investment and a better all-rounder, and I'm suspicious that a 47 might also be too dark tonally.

On a side note, I did another vocal mic shootout thread a little while back, and the SM7 was getting a lot of love. Here are some side-by-side samples of the REDD against the SM7. No processing, just a little level riding.
Attached Files

REDD Unprocessed.mp3 (3.95 MB, 9193 views)

SM7B Unprocessed.mp3 (3.95 MB, 9161 views)

Old 2nd April 2018
  #28
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Well, really it is only about which flavour is going to be useful, and it depends on the desired destination. If you're running a studio, which flavours you want to lay out as 'the paint kit' for people to go towards whatever vision with.

If you however as an artist have a vision for your own thing, go with what feels like it speaks most like that vision, but on feel. Not frequency content. That's all I am saying. That might well mean you go REDD.
Old 2nd April 2018
  #29
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G View Post
I'm still loving them fairly clean on drums.
They sound just like Ed Greene on an old Barry White record.
It may have been positioning but the only lucky winner lately on drums was the fat Soundelux U99. Amazing recommendations. Thanks!

Both leave the vintage 87 in the dust here.... AEA R92 on snare and Horch Fet on kick that's all apart from ribbon room boom.

I only keep the Neumann cos people recognise them.
cool!
I’ve been putting the brand new reissue 67 up against my u99’s this past week.
Old 3rd April 2018
  #30
Gear Maniac
 
Kroc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Well, really it is only about which flavour is going to be useful, and it depends on the desired destination. If you're running a studio, which flavours you want to lay out as 'the paint kit' for people to go towards whatever vision with.

If you however as an artist have a vision for your own thing, go with what feels like it speaks most like that vision, but on feel. Not frequency content. That's all I am saying. That might well mean you go REDD.
For sure. That's all very solid advice. I do have a vision for my sound of course, (which in general is more retro-leaning and 70s inspired), and that's definitely what's most important to me, but I suppose this is all my process of figuring out the most effective way to achieve it. As long as the performance is right, it's always workable, of course. Thanks for the input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
cool!
I’ve been putting the brand new reissue 67 up against my u99’s this past week.
How are you finding the new 67 reissue? What's it like compared to the REDD?
Topic:
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