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Chandler REDD mic next to a vintage U87 Condenser Microphones
View Poll Results: Should I give in to gearlust?
Get the REDD!
35 Votes - 41.67%
Stick with the 87!
49 Votes - 58.33%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

Old 17th July 2018
  #211
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roger's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kroc View Post
It took a few days to arrive from Amazon with it being the weekend, but here's a sample through my beautiful new C B Gitty Build It Yourself Tin Can Microphone kit (basically a tin can with a piezo pickup, superglued to the tin can lid, plugged in via a 1/4" guitar lead).
Through the Apollo Neve 1073 Unison plugin. Only the best for my tin can.
Nip 500hz honk & a savage 3k cut!
Compress & add some lowend and it will probably sound half decent dude!
Haha!
Old 17th July 2018
  #212
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Perfect for a Canned Heat tribute band! Chris
Old 17th July 2018
  #213
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kroc View Post

Huh, wow! That's cool to know. Was this specifically a shootout with ribbons, or with other mics too? I might give the RPQ500 a shot.

No Ribbon mics used in this shootout. It was very well done. Actually, I just found it. Here is the thread linked below. See the post from _GML_ starting with post No.2. There are several comparisons comparing the AEA pres with others using some of the most sought after mics. He includes videos and everything. It's really well done. It's what made me start investigating the AEA pres and eventually discover Fred Forssell's contributions. I still haven't pulled the trigger on one but I definitively will in the near future. Probably after I get an AEA44 which I've wanted for ages.


REDD vs. NEVE preamps
Old 17th July 2018
  #214
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roger's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
Perfect for a Canned Heat tribute band! Chris
Love it!
Old 17th July 2018
  #215
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Chris
Old 18th July 2018
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger View Post
Nip 500hz honk & a savage 3k cut!
Compress & add some lowend and it will probably sound half decent dude!
Haha!
Lol. This might be my new main vocal mic. It sounds just like a vintage Neumann. I'm pretty sure this could be the new thing.

By the way, this is what it is:

https://www.cbgitty.com/kits-instrum...-old-time-mic/

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
Perfect for a Canned Heat tribute band! Chris


Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
No Ribbon mics used in this shootout. It was very well done. Actually, I just found it. Here is the thread linked below. See the post from _GML_ starting with post No.2. There are several comparisons comparing the AEA pres with others using some of the most sought after mics. He includes videos and everything. It's really well done. It's what made me start investigating the AEA pres and eventually discover Fred Forssell's contributions. I still haven't pulled the trigger on one but I definitively will in the near future. Probably after I get an AEA44 which I've wanted for ages.


REDD vs. NEVE preamps
This is really interesting! Thanks for sharing.
The AEA does sound great - it seems very neutral, with a lot of detail in the mids. Probably the most presence and clarity of all of them. Definitely seems like it would be an excellent all-rounder that would do especially well with bringing out extra fidelity in darker mics (like ribbons).
I still really enjoyed the colour in some of the others - the Neve is less neutral but very sweet (love that sound). And I really enjoyed the Retro Powerstrip too, for its tubey musicality and sparkle. Quite a big, three-dimensional sound. But I think those would be my top three.

I think my favourites were the Retro Powerstrip for the 47 (with the AEA close behind.. and maybe the LA610), AEA or 1073 for the 251, and the AEA or REDD.47 for the M149.

Side question: how similar is the M149 to the M49? That was probably my least favourite of those mics, though it might not have suited her voice. I like the huge roundness of the 47 and the detail and air on the 251.

Cheers,
Dan
Old 18th July 2018
  #217
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kroc View Post
Side question: how similar is the M149 to the M49? That was probably my least favourite of those mics, though it might not have suited her voice. I like the huge roundness of the 47 and the detail and air on the 251.

Cheers,
Dan

The M149 and M49 have nothing in common outside of the "49" in their names. However, I personally love the M149 for vocals and acoustic instruments. I have not used an M49 myself but based on the clips I have heard and all of @jjblair (s) rants about the M149 being a classic tube mic wanna be and a "poser" so to speak I have it on good authority that they are not very similar.



[Late addition] The M49 was designed to grab detail from a distance when used in orchestral applications and I think this is one of the things that makes it such a great vocal mic.
Old 18th July 2018
  #218
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jjblair's Avatar
Hey, I think the M149 us a fine mic if you buy it for what it should really be worth, which is $2500, IMHO.
Old 18th July 2018
  #219
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So you would rate a U87, around the same general value as a vocal microphones as the M149, JJ?

BTW my present belief is that the U87ai, is comparable to the older ones. Feel free to enlighten me though!

Thanks, Chris
Old 18th July 2018
  #220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
The M149 and M49 have nothing in common outside of the "49" in their names. However, I personally love the M149 for vocals and acoustic instruments. I have not used an M49 myself but based on the clips I have heard and all of @jjblair (s) rants about the M149 being a classic tube mic wanna be and a "poser" so to speak I have it on good authority that they are not very similar.



[Late addition] The M49 was designed to grab detail from a distance when used in orchestral applications and I think this is one of the things that makes it such a great vocal mic.
The M-149 is a good mic, but it's not exactly hitting the nail on the head, regarding the M-49. While it's not identical to it, it's certainly has a reminiscent approach. But it leaves me wanting more. Whenever I use it, I still have a thirst for the M-49. So I can't say its a replacement. But its very nice on quiet acoustic music. I find it to be a little too hot sometimes, The M-49 is probably my all-time favorite Neumann mic. It has a truly musical sound that is super forgiving and true. Its wide and creamy and has a certain softness to my ears, but it does not lack the edge or air. I prefer this mic over any U47/251/c12 in the world.
Old 18th July 2018
  #221
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
So you would rate a U87, around the same general value as a vocal microphones as the M149, JJ?

BTW my present belief is that the U87ai, is comparable to the older ones. Feel free to enlighten me though!

Thanks, Chris
Never done a a/b in the same session but own vintage u87 and used the AI plenty of times. The AI is clouded in the lowmids 400hz you know either it stays thick or you cut to much and it sounds thin. The 3khz resonance is allot worse in the AI too. Maybe my vintage ones has been modded but they sound very good, and feels pretty even throughout the spectrum with that Neumann sound most Ppl love.
Old 19th July 2018
  #222
The M149 may not be identical to the M49 but definitely in the same quality class. People state that the u67 reissue is not exactly like their vintage 67 but Neumann begs to differ. The M149 is an excellent microphone for the money. I have tried many cheaper (not cheap) vocal microphones but still none gave me what the M149 gives me ; clean, clear and focused. They were still very good mics.

Jjblair can make his statements but if he can point me to a microphone for less than and sounds exactly or 95% like the m149, i'm interested. I don't mind SMT in microphones but not in microphone preamplifiers.
Old 19th July 2018
  #223
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It’s apples and oranges to compare a 149 vs 49 scenario to a 67 vs...newer run of a 67.

Between the 149, and 49, the only thing that’s the same is the capsule. Nothing else.

With the 67, it’s the same circuit. People may quibble about tolerances of the parts, but it’s essentially the same spec, but just made with what’s on hand now. Which consists of all sub parts that are of the 67 spec.

I don’t think the surface mount is the issue of ITB the 149, sonically speaking. It’s the fact it’s an entirely different mic.
Old 19th July 2018
  #224
Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 View Post
It’s apples and oranges to compare a 149 vs 49 scenario to a 67 vs...newer run of a 67.

Between the 149, and 49, the only thing that’s the same is the capsule. Nothing else.

With the 67, it’s the same circuit. People may quibble about tolerances of the parts, but it’s essentially the same spec, but just made with what’s on hand now. Which consists of all sub parts that are of the 67 spec.

I don’t think the surface mount is the issue of ITB the 149, sonically speaking. It’s the fact it’s an entirely different mic.
No-one here is claiming the 149 is an exact replica, clone or duplicate of the 49. The only person making the claim is Neumann, so that argument needs to be discussed with them. The M149 is a superb microphone on it's own, it does not need to replicate a M49, they are in the same class.
Old 19th July 2018
  #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dopeboi View Post
The only person making the claim is Neumann
Nope. Notice the different model numbers.

And I’m not the one that setup the argument about a 149 vs 49...and a 67 vs 67.

I may have misunderstood the point you were making, no offense intended.
Old 19th July 2018
  #226
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopeboi View Post
The M149 may not be identical to the M49 but definitely in the same quality class. People state that the U67 reissue is not exactly like their Vintage 67 but Neumann begs to differ. The M149 is an excellent microphone for the money. I have tried many cheaper (not cheap) vocal microphones but still none gave me what the M149 gives me ; clean, clear and focused. They were still very good mics.

Jjblair can make his statements but if he can point me to a microphone for less than and sounds exactly or 95% like the M149, i'm interested. I don't mind SMT in microphones but not in microphone preamplifiers.

I think you need to read JJ's actual comments to get where he is coming from. He doesn't disparage the mic or the sonics, just the high cost of the mic compared to what you are really getting. There are a ton of mics in the $2k-$3k price range that can compete with the M149.

With regards to the u67 reissue you mentioned, the cost of that mic is probably fair based on what went into producing and manufacturing that particular mic.

I don't deny that the M149 is special, especially for miking acoustic instruments as I stated in my post. Mics are personal and not everyone is looking to pay $5K for a crystal clear mic like the M149 because it may work for you in your room or it may not. Anyway, I was joking with JJ when I made my post and he knows that. I'm just having a little fun.
Old 19th July 2018
  #227
Quote:
Nope. Notice the different model numbers.

And I’m not the one that setup the argument about a 149 vs 49...and a 67 vs 67.

I may have misunderstood the point you were making, no offense intended.
No offense taken, might be due to a lack of expounding on both sides.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
I think you need to read JJ's actual comments to get where he is coming from. He doesn't disparage the mic or the sonics, just the high cost of the mic compared to what you are really getting. There are a ton of mics in the $2k-$3k price range that can compete with the M149.

With regards to the u67 reissue you mentioned, the cost of that mic is probably fair based on what went into producing and manufacturing that particular mic.

I don't deny that the M149 is special, especially for miking acoustic instruments as I stated in my post. Mics are personal and not everyone is looking to pay $5K for a crystal clear mic like the M149 because it may work for you in your room or it may not. Anyway, I was joking with JJ when I made my post and he knows that. I'm just having a little fun.
I did read his comment, that's why i responded. Did you read and really understand mine? I really don't think i was far off his comment. In short, the balance of production cost to market value is not fair/worthy/satisfactory, is what i perceive from his statements. I see this often with many other products that sell well and get praised.

I am very open minded and always attentive to new things. My comments are not intended to offend or undermine anyone in any way, not saying you said or made it seem as if. I'm know for certain there are many less expensive microphones that can compete with them M149 but i would like a less expensive microphone that can do at least 95% of what it does. I haven't found one yet.
Old 19th July 2018
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dopeboi View Post
No offense taken, might be due to a lack of expounding on both sides.

I did read his comment, that's why i responded.

What I meant was you would need to read JJ's comments across GS as a whole to understand his stance. I did not mean any offense by my response to you either. I was just busting JJ's balls with the post that started this side conversation and did not mean to derail the thread.




Quote:
I'm know for certain there are many less expensive microphones that can compete with them M149 but i would like a less expensive microphone that can do at least 95% of what it does. I haven't found one yet.

Two companies that spring to mind are Cathedral Pipes and Soundelux (Bock). They both have a couple of mics I think could get you close to 95% of the way there for half the price.

Anyway, I apologize again for the derailment. Let's get back to the subject at hand. #KeepThe87
Old 19th July 2018
  #229
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Yes, I have the new Bock Soundelux U195, that is one of the "wow"/best microphones I've tried on my voice. Not being a pro, having a strong AE to help evaluate "what's better" etc., can be very helpful.

In any event, the REDD (on my voice) seems to
edge out a U87.

Chris
Old 20th July 2018
  #230
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Kroc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
BTW my present belief is that the U87ai, is comparable to the older ones. Feel free to enlighten me though!
Quote:
Originally Posted by crille_mannen View Post
Never done a a/b in the same session but own vintage u87 and used the AI plenty of times. The AI is clouded in the lowmids 400hz you know either it stays thick or you cut to much and it sounds thin. The 3khz resonance is allot worse in the AI too. Maybe my vintage ones has been modded but they sound very good, and feels pretty even throughout the spectrum with that Neumann sound most Ppl love.
Yes, I would agree about the 3k area / the 'hard' area of mid information being much more prominent on the Ai. My vintage U87 sounds almost nothing like the Ai that I used (that said, I've only used that one Ai, once). The Ai was cool too, but waaaay crisper and brighter (it could be really great with a darker pre like an LA610 or something). I have a couple of clips of it, but I have no idea whether it was raw or not. Anyway, my vintage 87 is much darker and has plenty of (potentially cloudy/woolly) low mid information, but is very warm, and always gives a usable sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
The M-149 is a good mic, but it's not exactly hitting the nail on the head, regarding the M-49. While it's not identical to it, it's certainly has a reminiscent approach. But it leaves me wanting more. Whenever I use it, I still have a thirst for the M-49. So I can't say its a replacement. But its very nice on quiet acoustic music. I find it to be a little too hot sometimes, The M-49 is probably my all-time favorite Neumann mic. It has a truly musical sound that is super forgiving and true. Its wide and creamy and has a certain softness to my ears, but it does not lack the edge or air. I prefer this mic over any U47/251/c12 in the world.
Have you used a Flea 49? I was watching the Tube Tests video about it, and they mistook it for the Neumann in a blind test. I gotta try a 49 now!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dopeboi View Post
The M149 may not be identical to the M49 but definitely in the same quality class. People state that the u67 reissue is not exactly like their vintage 67 but Neumann begs to differ.
I felt like the 67 reissue didn't have the same low-end on the YouTube comparison I saw, but I imagine there may well be a fair amount of variation between the vintage units because of the degradation of parts, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
Two companies that spring to mind are Cathedral Pipes and Soundelux (Bock). They both have a couple of mics I think could get you close to 95% of the way there for half the price.

Anyway, I apologize again for the derailment. Let's get back to the subject at hand. #KeepThe87
Hehe, actually, I found this 'derailment' to be very insightful.
I was seriously considering either a Cathedral Pipes Notre Dame or Regensburg Dom when I bought the REDD, but thought the REDD would be the safer bet (still think the clips of the CP mics sound pretty lush though!). I'm curious to sing through a Bock 251 sometime, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
Not being a pro, having a strong AE to help evaluate "what's better" etc., can be very helpful.
It's always great to get feedback from others. You've heard your voice your whole life, and have your own tastes. Sometimes it's good to see what makes other people enthusiastic. (Which is why this thread has been so helpful )
Old 20th July 2018
  #231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kroc View Post

Have you used a Flea 49? I was watching the Tube Tests video about it, and they mistook it for the Neumann in a blind test. I gotta try a 49 now!

I have, more than a few times. I actually think its a really nice microphone. It is a lot closer to the real thing than the M-149, but I still think its different than the OG M-49, which has a certain indescribable signature of image and tone. Anyway, even though this mic is really nice, I just want something else instead. I am still drooling for this sound. Haven't achieved what I want yet.
Old 20th July 2018
  #232
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The best bet for a “new” M49 is to get the Tab kit, and put it together with a real Neumann k49/47.

Another decent route is a custom shop Bock 49...and with a Neumann k49, though the premium caps Bock uses are very good.

The 5840 substitution is not bad in either - it results in an ever so slight rise in top and lows. There are other tube substitution possibilities as well...

The Flea M49 is good. The material used for the circuit boards also has/had some different electrical properties that throws the circuit off some (maybe this has been updated at some point, not sure). The M49 was built on these plastic decks, and the electrical properties of them come into play.

But IMO, setting yourself up for a scenario where a legit Neumann capsule can be in there, is beneficial. It just has the most pleasant sound. It’s worth building an M49 circuit around. It’s also preferable to newer “m7” capsules, like the Theirsch, for most vocals. More three dimensional, nicer air, less midrange woof. Though every so often those caps are great on something.
Old 20th July 2018
  #233
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Since we are talking about the M49, there is a thread by Advanced Audio Dave Thomas (I believe his name is?). He just released an M49 clone. Interesting thing is I believe he designed it just by listening. He didn't have an M49 to "reverse engineer".

Anyways, I seem to recall him sending the mic to some big studio that has an M49 and them saying that the mics were literally interchangeable. I believe they recorded some tracks with an OG M49 and dropped the AA mic in and apparently couldn't tell them apart?

I am mobile right now but if I have a chance I'll try and find the thread and the relevant commentary. Certainly is intriguing if my memory serves me correct regarding the sequence of events in that thread and it happens to be true. Advanced Audio do make some nice sounding mics!


Anyway:


CM49 | Advanced Audio Microphones
Old 20th July 2018
  #234
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Yeah, I don’t want to slam AA exactly, and I’m sure the final result may be acceptable to many. But I find the specs of what he does to be so, so far removed, that it’s almost an insult.

It’s like... don’t match the spec of the sub parts, don’t match the circuits, don’t even have any original version to compare it to, but it’s a match.

Okey dokey.

And he seems to drift far off in crucial aspects, like capsule types/capsule construction, again - the actual circuits the mics used, transformers and ratios used, etc.

Coincidentally, a lot of them are the same arrangements - at least on paper - that a Chinese tube mic company uses on their stock mics. Along with the bodies.

A frigging 6072A, cathode follower, different output transformer type/ratio... give me a break! They do that so the tube can be crappier and so the transformer can be crappier. No classic tube mic had such an arrangement.
Old 21st July 2018
  #235
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Crille, I have a frequency bunp around 300 Hz in my voice, so the potential "400 Hz cloudiness"/87ai is relevant to it. Because the voice is mellow, a moderate 3KHz bump in mic response, will tend to help-especially in a mix.

Kroc, your excellent clips, along with other ones posted recently inspired me to finally start to learn how to post audio clips here at GS. I have a couple of nice/brief acapella clips (around 20 to 30 seconds), that I plan to post soon in the "Psychedelic" thread I started recently. Am guessing that, because they are wav files, they were too large to be part of an attachment. They were done with a "flukey" $60 microphone (AKG D790) that records my voice very well.
More than one local pro musician who've heard them, thought they were done on a "High End" LDC.

Chris
Old 21st July 2018
  #236
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
Crille, I have a frequency bunp around 300 Hz in my voice, so the potential "400 Hz cloudiness"/87ai is relevant to it. Because the voice is mellow, a moderate 3KHz bump in mic response, will tend to help-especially in a mix.



Chris

Well all mics have some sort of bump somewhere. The u87 3khz thingy sounds more like its resonating then an actual boost and that's not that nice. And like I said it's way worse in the AI. Atleast my u87s are allot more balanced around 400hz and 3khz where its not an issue. 0.02
Old 21st July 2018
  #237
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crille_mannen View Post
Well all mics have some sort of bump somewhere. The u87 3khz thingy sounds more like its resonating then an actual boost and that's not that nice. And like I said it's way worse in the AI. Atleast my u87s are allot more balanced around 400hz and 3khz where its not an issue. 0.02
I think that resonance in the Ai has a million magic uses actually, just not necessarily on a vocal. It zings in a very Neumann way and still responds great to eq. There are nicer and less nice Ai's too, I mean a bad one is pretty hellish but a good one can be utterly delicious on the right source. Just not as cuddly and 'all sweetspot' as the old one. But yeah, if I was to buy an 87 it would be an old one first.
Old 21st July 2018
  #238
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Funny Cat's Avatar
@chessparov2.0


Uploading files to GS is pretty easy. Same concept as sending and email with a file attached. Click the “paper clip” icon at the top on the bottom row. From there you can drag and drop or choose a file from your PC. Just make sure your audio files are MP3’s @ 320kbps and they’ll appear in your post. Would love to hear your voice. Good luck.




[EDIT] Forgot to mention...make sure when you attach the file you wait until it “finishes” before you preview or post. Otherwise it can glitch in my experience. Good luck!
Old 21st July 2018
  #239
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A good buddy of mine has an excellent sounding "90's" U87, and a 414 B-ULS.
So I have access to both as options, for anything "important".

The funny thing is that "out of the box" (no EQing), IMHO that 414 is a better fit on me.

Thanks for the supportive post Funny Cat! Now I'll finally learn to download/use an MP3 conversion program too. Time to enter the late 20th Century!

In our area (So. OC) we sometimes joke about a local venue (The Coach House),
because usually the guitars sound REALLY good-Because the "Sound Guys" are all usually guitarists! I guess that's why I can record vocals pretty well, but there ARE all those other pesky instruments to think about...:

FWIW word is that Jack Douglas liked the AA 251 enough to go back and get a 2nd one. I found that rather intriguing, and it would have been cool when I met him (very briefly) to ask his thoughts directly-maybe next time!

Big Karen Carpenter fan here. Karen>U87=magic!
Old 21st July 2018
  #240
Gear Nut
 

I own a U87 ai and a U67 Ri. I think much of what people are discussing regarding the difference in frequency response of these newer microphones compared to older versions ( lack of bottom end in comparison etc) has to do with the higher tension of the diaphragms in the new models. As much of the magic is in the capsule, adjusting this tension can yield huge results sonically.
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