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Chandler REDD mic next to a vintage U87 Condenser Microphones
View Poll Results: Should I give in to gearlust?
Get the REDD!
32 Votes - 39.51%
Stick with the 87!
49 Votes - 60.49%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

Old 10th July 2018
  #151
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
My experience with non-vintage/non-classic (mostly lower end) vocal LDC's,
is that they tend not to take EQ as well. So if your're lucky, they can match the source well, but there's the real risk you'll just get painted into a corner.

BTW I feel my sense of trying out the Neumann U67 ought to be weighed much more like "an impression" vs. let alone anything close to a pro review.
I'm well aware there are those, already one this thread, that could would make a very fine vocal capture on it-then EQ it into submission.

If I'm flying solo though, something "out of the box", that gives me the sound I'm shooting for makes it much easier for me too.

Took me a looong time to really understand the value of a high end Neumann or AKG LDC.

If budget permits, I'd be tempted to at least keep the REDD for your instrumental backgrounds, and if/when you're recording other singers.

I love the 77 ribbon too (along with 44), hey it was the vocal microphone used
for the Righteous Brothers' "You've Lost That Loving Feeling"!!
Nuff said.

Chris

The eq thing is massive. Basically the sound you get to start is what it is. And then you either get the option to take that further, and with a great mic a LOT further, if you want to.....or you are 'painted into the corner' as you put it.

This is why something like an 87 has been so popular. Might not sound as spectacular as others right off the bat, but boy can you shoehorn that baby into the mix and end up with beauty. Meaning you don't have to worry about stuff too much while tracking as it's not over, it's only the (already very lovely) starting point. With a mic that doesn't react as happily to bending it around after, and then on top of that is touchy on placement....well, then you will have problems that won't necessarily fix easily or at all later. That's like hard work. Not into that.

Anyone have any impressions of how the REDD fares in that sort of context? Does it take a bending around with a smile? Is it perhaps even quite easy to remove some 'hard' with eq after without killing it? Tricky to tell without trying for yourself.
Old 10th July 2018
  #152
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DrSax's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
The eq thing is massive. Basically the sound you get to start is what it is. And then you either get the option to take that further, and with a great mic a LOT further, if you want to.....or you are 'painted into the corner' as you put it.

This is why something like an 87 has been so popular. Might not sound as spectacular as others right off the bat, but boy can you shoehorn that baby into the mix and end up with beauty. Meaning you don't have to worry about stuff too much while tracking as it's not over, it's only the (already very lovely) starting point. With a mic that doesn't react as happily to bending it around after, and then on top of that is touchy on placement....well, then you will have problems that won't necessarily fix easily or at all later. That's like hard work. Not into that.

Anyone have any impressions of how the REDD fares in that sort of context? Does it take a bending around with a smile? Is it perhaps even quite easy to remove some 'hard' with eq after without killing it? Tricky to tell without trying for yourself.

I agree about the importance of how a mic takes EQ. The REDD takes EQ as well or better than any mic I’ve worked with. Takes EQ Better than my U87 and TLM170’s which I love. I’ve found that many cats just don’t like high frequencies. Roll off the REDD highs a fair bit before other processing with a high shelf or a bit of a low pass filter and I suspect it will radically alter your opinion of the REDD. It sounds great with high cuts - it does so without sounding muffled or unnatural

FWIW, I find myself boosting high frequencies in a mix when I use my U67. With the REDD it’s about 50/50. Half the time the high end is untouched and half the time I pull the highs back some
Old 10th July 2018
  #153
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toledo3's Avatar
 

It gets to be a thing of, would you rather have the meal in front of you and add a little salt or hot sauce when you feel like it? And maybe not even on every bite?

Or do you want it super flavor loaded, and maybe even to be too much...

The thing I hear with the highs on the REDD - and very consistently across samples whether they are Kroc’s or from others including Chandler - is that the REDD lends itself to a considerable amount of harmonic distortion, particularly pronounced in the highs. As well as a general peak very close to the sibilant region. So, I don’t think it’s necessarily something that you can EQ down in the same way as a cleaner rise. Maybe.

To compare to some other known bright mics, like a C12, 251, Josephson 716 (I’m thinking of the cardioid ck12 type mic they do, I think that’s the model)... they are bright, and have SOME harmonic thing going on there, but it’s much less salty. There is a sound of more headroom, less strain. The brightness lift also tends to be higher in the frequency response, above the sibilant range.

I feel like I want to get that sort of...extra level of harmonic distortion, I probably don’t want it AT the mic. Mmm, or maybe not just in the particular frequency range it seems to be present at with this one. I guess it’s more of that. It’s about where it is, and how much is there.

My intuition is that this mic might shine most for modern pop and r&b. If the record needs to wind up sounding very present, it might be the thing. Did they use it on the Sting and Shaggy thing? That kind of material maybe makes sense.

I find myself thinking about the C800G and that kind of vibe. I have strongly disliked the results of that in many cases, and my ear just zooms in on the disembodied artifacts that happen as it gets further processed. But some people love the hell out of it, and plenty of recordings sold well, so.
Old 10th July 2018
  #154
Gear Maniac
 
Kroc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizards Machine View Post
Great, now I have to start obsessing and looking for a RCA 77DX. Sounds fab.
Ha! Thanks! And glad to be of help. I empathize: I had major 77DX fever since I first tried one a month ago, and was determined to get my hands on one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I used to have a 77DX, but after a while it just felt like it turned anything I pointed it at into a smokey jazz club, so I sold it. Amazing amounts of connotation value in that mic, like proper magic adding. But wasn't the right type of spice for me in the end that many times. On your voice it sounds fantastic though! Maybe I would have needed an MA5 to go with it.....clearly a superb combo.

Think about your record in a sense of 'what's the lead vocal sound' overall though I would. Like, make a choice for lead vocal mic and go with it. Not a necessity and sometimes a tune bucks that attempt, but I like it when a record has a continuity to the vocal sound. And that 77dx sure sounds like a record I'd listen to with you singing into it.
What kind of preamp were you using it with? I tried this mic with my ISA430 MKII preamp (which is a darker, softer kind of sound, and also has several impedance settings), and it was a whole other mic. And within that, it sounded totally different at 6800 Ohms, 2400 Ohms and 1400 Ohms. I was getting much more of a megaphone/airport PA system thing at higher impedances. And less detail across the board. Closer to what I would expect from a vintage ribbon, but definitely more of an effect/filter than something you’d use often. The MA5 seems to tighten up the sound and add some sheen, in a nice way. In fact, I think using the Cloudlifter (because of its input impedance) tweaks the sound too. I’m curious to know what it would sound like through an AEA RPQ500 and was anticipating that I’d have to buy one also, but I’m really digging the MA5 pairing. We were putting the other one that I used a month ago through a vintage Neve 1066, and it sounded awesome too.
A side note: all these clips have actually been handheld takes, as I’m waiting for a stand adaptor to arrive.

EDIT: The Cloudlifter was definitely affecting the performance through the ISA 430. The higher impedance settings were totally muffled.

With the vocal sound for the record, I think between the 87 and 77DX (both through the MA5, to give them a similar flavour), I have a lot of bases covered. I feel like they have a similar enough vibe to keep consistency while highlighting different things between tracks (versus, say, using a sparkly modern mic).
The 87 being a little more natural/airy/with plenty of low end and the 77 having that smokey (good descriptor!), comfortable old school record vibe. I think the 87 sounds a little more like what you’d hear if you actually sat in front of me in a room, while the 77 adds some extra interesting mojo of its own. The 87 is a little more whisper-in-your-ear, and the 77 is more like sitting in front of a stage in a venue.
I’d be happy using either, really! However, there’s a particular acoustic track on the record that totally calls for the 87, because I want to hear that breathiness/air/confronting intimacy; but plenty of others where the 77 will probably add a lot of interesting ambiance, sweetness and grit. A little more earnest rock and roll! Ha, I think smokey jazz club vibe + indie rock/soul singer-songwriter music is a funky combination. Keeps things a little more Hozier rather than Ed Sheeran.
Whichever one I don't use on lead vocals will probably wind up on BVs for extra texture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
Yes, the SM7 is one of the best vocal microphones for me, IF paired with a quality pre. My favorite vocal chain with that (so far) was SM7, into a Little Labs LMNOPre. Astounding detail out of a dynamic microphone with that one.

Haven't tried the classic SM7>1073 style pre yet.

Totally agree that the 77 ribbon is another winner on your voice Kroc, along with that 87. Another terrific clip too.
Thanks Chris! Very excited to use the 77 more.
Maybe try an Avedis MA5. That's what I'm using for basically all the clips here aside from the REDD (unless otherwise noted). It sits in the 1073 stable, and brings out a lot of detail while keeping plenty of warmth. It's my go-to preamp now for everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 View Post
Nice.. the 77dx sounds great on your vocals (although most mics sounds great with your vocals..some are more fitting than other of course, but you have a great voice!).

I'd suggest not using the cloudlifter, simply because it's not needed with the MA5 which has plenty of gain for any ribbon out there.



Cheu
Thanks Cheu!!
Part of the Cloudlifter choice is because of the effect on input impedance too. Aside from being an insurance policy against noise and phantom power, it seems to sound smoother smoother and warmer going in at 3k Ohms instead of 1.2k. And I think the noise floor was a couple of dB lower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
One test on one voice with whatever positioning, does not really tell much of a story. I only have one REDD example from a singer that sounded amazing through it, and she could have had crazy resonances with, it given her voice. She didn't, and the depth and presence of the mic was stunning. I do think how you work a mic is really important. Distance angle all that.... That being said, wonderful voice, and a really good sample! Every mic has a sweet spot....
Hey, thanks Ardis! Glad you liked the samples.
I still think the REDD is a pretty dope mic. If anything I've been posting samples because I'm confused as to why it seems to sound so much better in the other clips that I've heard online, versus anything I've been able to get in my own studio, regardless of how I work it or where I put it (I've tried it a bunch of ways, and these are the 'better' clips). Anyway, I'm sure it will still be a very useful studio piece for other vocalists that I record.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
If budget permits, I'd be tempted to at least keep the REDD for your instrumental backgrounds, and if/when you're recording other singers.
For sure! I plan to. If nothing else, it's kind of a big, shiny client-attractor. I mean, look at that bad boy! Hehe.
If I did trade it out for something else, it might be for a 47 or 251 clone, but it'd have to be a really special-sounding mic that I'd tried my voice on and couldn't live without because it kicked my 87 and 77 to the curb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Doesn't the REDD have a preamp in it and tonal options? It's not a "one and done" mic. be interesting to hear samples of the mic in different modes.
For sure. Most of these samples were done in normal mode, which is the 'clean' setting. There's a drive mode as well, for which I can post a comparison. And in each respective mode, the harmonic content changes depending on the input level setting. (That said, IMHO it still has the same basic character in both settings)
There's also a 'low end contour' mode - which I haven't bothered to use at all, because the last thing I need is even less bass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
The eq thing is massive. Basically the sound you get to start is what it is. And then you either get the option to take that further, and with a great mic a LOT further, if you want to.....or you are 'painted into the corner' as you put it.

Anyone have any impressions of how the REDD fares in that sort of context? Does it take a bending around with a smile? Is it perhaps even quite easy to remove some 'hard' with eq after without killing it? Tricky to tell without trying for yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrSax View Post
I agree about the importance of how a mic takes EQ. The REDD takes EQ as well or better than any mic I’ve worked with. Takes EQ Better than my U87 and TLM170’s which I love. I’ve found that many cats just don’t like high frequencies. Roll off the REDD highs a fair bit before other processing with a high shelf or a bit of a low pass filter and I suspect it will radically alter your opinion of the REDD. It sounds great with high cuts - it does so without sounding muffled or unnatural

FWIW, I find myself boosting high frequencies in a mix when I use my U67. With the REDD it’s about 50/50. Half the time the high end is untouched and half the time I pull the highs back some
Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 View Post
It gets to be a thing of, would you rather have the meal in front of you and add a little salt or hot sauce when you feel like it? And maybe not even on every bite?

Or do you want it super flavor loaded, and maybe even to be too much...
I'll post that Samurai Cop REDD sample with some EQing, for reference. But yeah, I'm generally of the opinion that the less I have to filter the core tone of a sound, the less filtered it sounds. I'd rather just add a little bit of salt if needed, as Toledo says. E.g. The 77, I found I only really wanted to high-pass and add a 1.5dB shelf at 12kHz, compress, and add some verb. (No de-essing, notching etc.)
Though I guess more of a pop/R&B thing is a different ball game.

Last edited by Kroc; 10th July 2018 at 11:48 PM..
Old 10th July 2018
  #155
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Kroc's Avatar
For ref, here's the same REDD sample, but lowpassed at 12kHz (12db/octave), with 3dB boosted at 150Hz (Q of 1.0 in FabFilter), and highpassed at 90Hz.
Attached Files
Old 11th July 2018
  #156
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Much nicer cropped like that. So most of the hard is right up top. Good to know, thanks. Just makes you wonder why people ever leave that in....lol
Old 11th July 2018
  #157
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DrSax's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kroc View Post
For ref, here's the same REDD sample, but lowpassed at 12kHz (12db/octave), with 3dB boosted at 150Hz (Q of 1.0 in FabFilter), and highpassed at 90Hz.
Sounds nicer on your voice this way. FYI, depending on the sound you are wanting, the REDD will take even more aggressive high freq cuts without sounding unnatural. I’ve used high shelving EQ or low pass EQ with a gentle slope to reduce up to 10-12db or more above 6k and can get the REDD to sound close to most everyone’s favorite vintage mic. Placement does make a difference too over here. I am learning to give the REDD a bit more distance from the source and it makes quite a difference. The whole mic with built in pre is a new concept and requires some rethinking to maximize its capabilities
Old 11th July 2018
  #158
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toledo3's Avatar
 

That “peak” and harmonic distortion are still there in the eq-eq version, it’s just more palatable with the edge off. To me, it still sounds unnatural, strictly speaking. Better though. Personally, it still tickles my ear kind of funny.

I feel as though the artifacts of the saturation might sound better and more smoothly integrated into the result, with a different capsule...maybe some other adjustments.

I think it’s just a pretty heavy handed mic in the way it tilts the sound, and in that, it’s going to get strong opinions.
Old 11th July 2018
  #159
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carloff's Avatar
There is no problem to EQ any microphone to sound quite alike another. Still is there problem with another behaviour of the item. Saturation, compression, phase, physical resonance of the body and the grill and so on, and behaviour with later compression in the mix. Also I believe that EQ this way a mic is not the point. Always is better to choose the right mic than to try desperately cure something.
Old 11th July 2018
  #160
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Funny Cat's Avatar
MUCH better with the low pass filter on there! I do hear the "heavy handedness" in the upper freq's toledo is referring too but at this point it's nitpicking because the vocal is really compelling. What plate verb are you using by the way?
Old 11th July 2018
  #161
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Honestly, if I hadn't head the other clips and hadn't read Toledo's insightful comments...

I'd just think it sounds great! (well it's really that the other examples are slighty "great-er")

Could the sound be further mellowed by a quality tube compressor?

Chris
Old 12th July 2018
  #162
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toledo3's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
Honestly, if I hadn't head the other clips and hadn't read Toledo's insightful comments...

I'd just think it sounds great! (well it's really that the other examples are slighty "great-er")

Could the sound be further mellowed by a quality tube compressor?

Chris
There is basically nothing that could matter less than what my opinion is on something!

BUT what may be relevant is really listening into the audio, assessing what is going on, and then whether you truly like it or not. I have just attempted to describe an aspect of it, and then my conclusion. It is 100% valid for someone to go “and then I think I should use it for everything!”.

Chris, the reason I had asked whether you assessed your own voice with headphones on, is that I feel that kind of playback really does lend itself to a sound along the lines of the REDD. That extra harmonic, and saturation, really helps something cut against what you are hearing through your own head cavity at the same time. A lot of times I treat the vocal in a way that approximates something like that for the artist’s headphone mix (or my own)...only to back down considerably later.

It’s just a very matter of taste / what works for each person kind of thing. It just makes me think of sometimes where I have tracked kind of hot, or used a sort of aggressive top end mic when recording a client, and then wished every damn day I hadn’t locked myself in so much, when mixing.

But that last EQ-ed thing sounds ok. It has that edge, but someone might go “well, it cuts through, it’s done.” It’s all subjective.

Chandler makes nice stuff in general, and I would *love* to see them play with the general idea more. I think my note for them could be reduced to “can you try a different capsule type with the amp circuit, and is it possible to add a switch to change the gain structure so that there is more headroom/less saturation even in the non drive settings?”.

Last edited by toledo3; 12th July 2018 at 12:25 AM.. Reason: Clarifying abbreviated word
Old 12th July 2018
  #163
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I like the red better. The 87 sounds dated, the red does not.
Old 12th July 2018
  #164
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cheu78's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
I like the red better. The 87 sounds dated, the red does not.
I wonder how a u47 sounds to you if the 87 is "dated"..



Cheu
Old 12th July 2018
  #165
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+1 on your last post Toledo. Other than your (genuine) modesty, regarding your ability in evaluating audio related things!

The majority of my self-listening, is while I'm singing (when using headphones), and this helps balance those good points you brought up.
(versus only listening to playback)

BTW I have an exceptional Oktava 219, sounds like a "way back machine" to 1967! Sometimes "dated" is cool...

Chris
Old 12th July 2018
  #166
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
+1 on your last post Toledo. Other than your (genuine) modesty, regarding your ability in evaluating audio related things!

The majority of my self-listening, is while I'm singing (when using headphones), and this helps balance those good points you brought up.
(versus only listening to playback)

BTW I have an exceptional Oktava 219, sounds like a "way back machine" to 1967! Sometimes "dated" is cool...

Chris
Oktava 219 is great mic! Anyway " U87 dated" sounds like "ability of hearing high frequencies dated" which is believe or not quite common prob and leads to prefer high freq exposed signal
Old 12th July 2018
  #167
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Thanks, I hear you! Chris
Old 13th July 2018
  #168
Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 View Post
I find myself thinking about the C800G and that kind of vibe. I have strongly disliked the results of that in many cases, and my ear just zooms in on the disembodied artifacts that happen as it gets further processed. But some people love the hell out of it, and plenty of recordings sold well, so.
I first described this mic as a C800G for Beatles fans. People spat feathers at the time. I think it's a brave and excellent microphone that people don't understand yet as they're still hung up on the old classics. Make no bones about it, this will be a classic.
Old 13th July 2018
  #169
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Oldone's Avatar
The 87 get's there for me. More emotion.
Old 13th July 2018
  #170
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldone View Post
The 87 get's there for me. More emotion.
Strikes me as a sign of the times. People saying the 87 sounds 'old fashioned'. I completely agree it captures more emotion. Only, is that actually what most people WANT for a modern record??? Show me modern records with lots of emotion on them. Not many around. It's not the age of emotion, it's the age of portable screens.
Old 13th July 2018
  #171
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So true, regarding emotion (or lack thereof) generally. in what I hear today.

You gave some excellent further details too, on why the Neumann 87 is so useful. I didn't really "get this" importance, until around a year ago.

Chris
Old 13th July 2018
  #172
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roger's Avatar
 

Autotune & the Grid have killed emotion in (some) music. The 87 just sounds nicer here. It doesn’t zing or hurt so you are drawn to listen louder & deeper - that helps to former a greater emotional connection for sure.
Old 13th July 2018
  #173
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toledo3's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Strikes me as a sign of the times. People saying the 87 sounds 'old fashioned'. I completely agree it captures more emotion. Only, is that actually what most people WANT for a modern record??? Show me modern records with lots of emotion on them. Not many around. It's not the age of emotion, it's the age of portable screens.
I won’t mince words. It’s a joke of a thing to say it sounds “old”. That’s not a sonic description. It’s not a serious statement.
Old 13th July 2018
  #174
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Oldone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Strikes me as a sign of the times. People saying the 87 sounds 'old fashioned'. I completely agree it captures more emotion. Only, is that actually what most people WANT for a modern record??? Show me modern records with lots of emotion on them. Not many around. It's not the age of emotion, it's the age of portable screens.
Well, no, if your creating EDM music. But the example was more of a ballad and in Nashville, that is the money sound. Heck yeah, there's lot's of modern records with emotion and that's exactly what people want. If I want the soul-less and compressed Chinese capsule sound, I can put up an MXL mic smash it with a plugin in and save you the money of the REDD.
Old 13th July 2018
  #175
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zohomoho's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldone View Post
Well, no, if your creating EDM music. But the example was more of a ballad and in Nashville, that is the money sound. Heck yeah, there's lot's of modern records with emotion and that's exactly what people want. If I want the soul-less and compressed Chinese capsule sound, I can put up an MXL mic smash it with a plugin in and save you the money of the REDD.
It's not the mic, it's the performers who have become soulless.
Old 13th July 2018
  #176
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Oldone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zohomoho View Post
It's not the mic, it's the performers who have become soulless.
More the bedroom engineer that doesn't know when they have a good sound.
Old 13th July 2018
  #177
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldone View Post
More the bedroom engineer that doesn't know when they have a good sound.

I'm not so sure about this. "Sound" and "soul" or "emotion" in a song are not necessarily related. I've done handheld recordings in rehearsal rooms that had emotion and vibe that could not be recreated in a studio environment. Many of us have recorded lofi demos in our project rooms that lose something when they are redone in the studio with top class equipment. Happens to famous bands as well. Same goes for seeing (name your favorite band here) live and then you listen to their studio album and you have to scratch your head. Emotion comes from the performer in a moment in time.
Old 13th July 2018
  #178
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
I'm not so sure about this. "Sound" and "soul" or "emotion" in a song are not necessarily related. I've done handheld recordings in rehearsal rooms that had emotion and vibe that could not be recreated in a studio environment.
And I've done studio recordings where I've caught emotional lightning in a bottle, but with the wrong mic. Which is not meant to be an argument for tediously shooting out vocal mics. In my view, you need to know your gear well enough that when it's time to track a vocal right now, you put up the right mic straightaway. Which, I just confessed, I sometimes haven't.
Old 13th July 2018
  #179
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But Oldone, I thought the Slate "smashed MXL plug-in" was ALREADY out!
(Just kidding Steven!)

Chris
Old 13th July 2018
  #180
Gear Head
 
Wizards Machine's Avatar
 

'Vibe'. What ever happened to it anyway? Real people, blurry sounds, sharp sounds, real instruments, playing in a room with all those harmonics bouncing into each other, lifting up the emotion of the players, them looking at each other, smiling as they're making great music, laying down a much better groove together because the vibe is there, then printing that vibe onto a disc so some kid can ride his bike to the local record store and buy it. Come home, tear off the shrink rap, look at the awesome cover, and experience exactly what they were feeling.

Okay I'm done.
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