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Monitor and Room Optimization, Trinnov etc
Old 6th June 2018
  #31
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maxy's Avatar
For the folks using the Trinnov - is the latency affecting tracking?
Old 6th June 2018
  #32
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it is - and becomes unbearable when punching in on my a800 (feel free to substitute tape with buffer size/system latency) - prefer lake controllers for this (and other) reason.

(i'm aware that not everybody is recording to tape or has two different processors for alignment; i do)
Old 7th June 2018
  #33
Gear Head
 

We are using Kii's in low latency mode (0,8ms). Frankly I haven't checked the Trinnov latency, I believe it is around 20ms, but for mixing it's perfectly acceptable. You can always bypass Trinnov when tracking.
Old 17th June 2018
  #34
Gear Maniac
Network work?

So did any of you have problems with registering/updating Trinnov via the network? Not having any progress here after more than a week. My Virgin Media hub ISP is not blocking port 22 but the Trinnov will not see the internet no matter what I do. No firewall. Weird because I CAN Telnet to the Trinnov support server via my Mac OK.

Or did yours just connect no prob?
Old 17th November 2018
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Operators View Post
New Trinnov users here. We installed it in newly built control room with great monitors (Kii Audio) and after setting up the Trinnov we were deeply impressed. The difference is not subtle.
And as someone already said it is not only about EQ. It’s about phase and stereo image. So tight.
If you can afford it, go for it.
Do you have to adjust any setting in the trinnov because the Kiis have a delay? Does it affect spacial/phase timings of the trinnov?
Old 19th November 2018
  #36
Here for the gear
Just demoed an ST2 Pro. I worked with the unit for 3 days to get the best sound out of it. While it was helpful for positioning the speakers and adjusting the positioning and angles of the floor to ceiling panels, as I went on to close listening with plenty of blind A/B, it became clear I wouldn't be making this purchase.

There are a lot of pros and cons to list and I don't have time for all of it so briefly; 40-60Hz is great, transients spectacular if wearisome but will they translate, ability to integrate two subs effortlessly is very nice, imaging is disrupted masking depth and smearing a mono signal (deal breaker).

My room only has a slight issue of 5dB at 100Hz which on balance I can live with rather than significantly degrade my signal chain and smear the imaging. So although there are big positives, in some ways it sounds rather like just a much worse DAC with the processing in, essentially, here. I imagine if you have just a bit of treatment here and there it could be excellent, but I personally think the £4800 would be better spent on something by Crane Song and a great deal of room improvement.

I took a photo of my response curves on the unit for comparison to REW and happily returned the unit.
Old 22nd November 2018
  #37
Old 22nd November 2018
  #38
Lives for gear
A couple other products that should be considered here are the Minidsp DDRC 88D and the OpenDRC series plus rephase software (free).

These both have the option of storing a low latency filterset as well as a high latency one. The OpenDRC plus rephase also gives you the option of using min phase and HF focused phase/impulse correction for a low latency, corrected-above-schroeder filterset and a high latency full range correction filter set. These can be stored in 4 presets and recalled from the front panel.

IMO one thing to consider is that any automated correction runs the risk of being too heavy (or light) handed and also imo needs to include a house curve option. OpenDRC will take more work from the user, but has the advantage of allowing you to determine what aspects of the impulse correction you want to implement, as well as setting a house curve (which can actually be set in REW from the start, and should as IIR eq to create the house curve also affects phase).

Here is a good article on using rephase with opendrc-

rePhase FIR Tool

Great prices on this stuff too. I have a fairly high end system from a components perspective (over 10k in drivers and amps) and have no issues at all with the DAC's in the OpenDRC-DA8. Also if you are going all the way down the rabbit hole here you can use current source amps like firstwatt and do full high and low latency optimization.

That all said, the OpenDRC-DI is a product that offers significant advantages to the Trinov in my view for in a 2 in 2 out option that can use any ADC and DACs...IMO a bit of a no brainer if the user is prepared to invest some time.
Old 22nd November 2018
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbesq View Post
But I wonder if this is true.
No it's not. What is objective with regard to monitoring is that we want minimum deviation from the central response curve. Meaning the least amount of peaks and nulls is always desirable. But the actual curve that is at the center of that is subjective. There have been many AES/BBC/EBU papers and studies on this, long story short something like the B&K attached is fairly standard.

In my personal view, a lot of this is dependant on the resonant qualities of the room, one big difference being if you are on a slab on grade or a wood framed floor. And also the overall THD+spectral contamination of the playback system (again including room, early reflections etc). My experience is that the cleaner the playback is, the more tilted in favor of the bass the house curve can be without making the material sound too bass heavy.

If you google "house curve", you will find a lot on the subject.
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Monitor and Room Optimization, Trinnov etc-b_and_k.png  
Old 22nd November 2018
  #40
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slippers View Post
So although there are big positives, in some ways it sounds rather like just a much worse DAC with the processing in, essentially, here.
This sounds like a typical description of overly heavy handed impulse response correction. IMO this will always be a shortcoming of a product that does it automatically with little to no ability for the end user to get under the hood. It may be the case that the Trinov never got the impulse fully centered before correcting, and remeasuring could fix that...I've never used a Trinov though so I can't really comment on that.
Old 23rd November 2018
  #41
Gear Addict
We are running a high-end Mixing Studio with Strauss SE-MF2 Mastering Monitors in a well tuned room. As we all know even the best rooms need some corrections if a linear frequency response is wanted for mid-and farfield monitors.

I was always more than skeptical with the Trinnov Opimizer, mainly because most acoustic-engineers I know told me bad story's about it, but more important, I heard it in action at many places and I always thought it does more bad things than good things.

Anyway, after having tried many solutions, I wanted to know what the Trinnov would be capable to do at my place. The Swiss distributor gave me that thing for a long testing time of several weeks, because if we test something, we really want do it right.

The results were interesting. The first result that Trinnov provided after having measured 3 different listening position's was a nightmare. After checking what obviously went wrong we saw that trinnov thought that it has to correct the placement of the left speaker. Most likely it was due to some refection from a rack that we have on the left side. Anyway, we put that option off and then we were ready for further testing.

The way Trinnov corrected the Bass-Domain (below 150 hz) was second to none. First the analysis that Trinnov did was perfect in that frequency range. (As we already have measured the room with many different acoustic engineers we know exactly whats going on there). But also the correction of the little bass things we have were spectacular.

Now everything above 150 Herz, there it gets more complicated. And here I think, together with the timing correction of the individual LS, that trinnov would do better to not correct this by default, but rather to give that as an option. It is obvious that the mic measures every single comb-filtering reflection of your table or console and tries to correct it. But that must not be better, moreover with a very good Loudspeaker System, as an engineer adapts to this comb filtering. Even more important, if you move your head just a little bit, than the comb-filtering solution is not accurate anymore.

However in Trinnov this all can be adjusted in very good ways. After having adjusted where it shall correct and how much (we reduced what trinnov was allowed to do drastically) we did tests about 2 weeks with many listeners. We basically compared if we would use the Trinnov but correct things below 150 Hz only, or if we actually like it with the correction of the highly adapted settings for the entire frequency spectrum.

We ended up with the 2nd option, after having adjusted in deep what the System proposed it was great for the entire spectrum.

I see it this way: Trinnov suggest a correction for every mistake that it believes to have measured. About 30% of those suggestion might be wrong or not appropriate in your room. Another 30% of the suggestion might be right but the correction is to much. That depend heavily on how accurate your system already is and how good your room already is (Trinnov obviously can not know that). the last 30% are great right a way. So in the End, with the Trinnov it is finally like with an opposite system that does nothing at the start and you have to tell and programm the System. Trinnov is just the opposite, it does everything, but then you have to tell the system what you need and what not and what was too strong. So you have to dive in the system deeply. Most people might think that with a system like Trinnov they can just install the mic, and let Trinnov do the magic, but that does not work.

The result at our place finally was stunning and we bought the system right away. I was more than sceptical, but now I am more than happy with it.
I suggest everybody interessted to check the system, but only if you have time to go into this deep or if you don't have the knowledge then a trained guy must help.

Daniel
idee und klang

Last edited by idee und klang; 24th November 2018 at 04:12 PM..
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