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Neumann U67 2018 reissue internal View Condenser Microphones
Old 28th November 2018
  #961
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With all due respect JJ, on that last acoustic guitar clip, I actually preferred the Russian tube.

I think I could tell, however... That I'd prefer the 2nd
tube (generally) on vocals.

In any event, thanks for your input.
Chris
Old 28th November 2018
  #962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
With all due respect JJ, on that last acoustic guitar clip, I actually preferred the Russian tube.

I think I could tell, however... That I'd prefer the 2nd
tube (generally) on vocals.

In any event, thanks for your input.
Chris
He was explaining to me that he was really trying to demonstrate the bass and not trying to get a good guitar sound. I agree, the lack of bass in the Russian tube made it sound better the way he recorded it, with the mic 2 inches from the sound hole.
Old 28th November 2018
  #963
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Thanks Allen. Yes, I got what both of you were saying, at that time (2 weeks ago). Then I went back tonight, to finally listen to it (clip by itself) and conveniently forgot! Long work day...

Smart test, but I'd be able to tell better on vocals, not being a guitarist!
Chris
Old 28th November 2018
  #964
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gyraf's Avatar
 

Please remember that a EF86 is not just simply a EF86 when it is to be used in a microphone.

The reason for this is that some of the parameters that we depend on for microphones (e.g. very-high R(G) tolerance) are not part of manufacturing specification, so even a 100% perfectly good EF86 can easily sound lousy as a condenser microphone front-end. I think the AC701 and the VF14 were the only tubes directly aimed at mics, none of the others try to be this, some just are by-chance..

So you need to try them out in-circuit and judge whether this specific tube does what you like.

Which also means that there is VERY little that can be said about the "generic sound" of some brand tube or the other (!)

BUT what CAN be said, is that some brands and vintages IN GENERAL/ON AVERAGE will respond better to use in a microphone - still this is no guarantee at all that it will work at all. I have success figures like 1:4 (one in four) for nos Philips, 1:3 for Mullard and Siemens, and probably slightly better for Tele. Once went through a box of 10 JJ's (labeled "EF806S" :-) ) without luck.

Jakob E.

Last edited by gyraf; 28th November 2018 at 09:36 AM.. Reason: count..
Old 28th November 2018
  #965
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Klaus's Avatar
 

Very smart response, and another reason why testing these tubes on conventional tube testers is useless.

Add to this the fickle behavior of microphone tubes over time (Neumann was pissed about the erratic long-term behavior of the "microphone only" AC701, and said so in a detailed report to Telefunken) and you have a situation where only the very best materials, manufacturing techniques and quality control of some of the Old Stock manufacturers would barely be good enough for long-term usage in this unique environment for a radio tube.

What is clear though: IF a NOS EF86 holds up during initial testing, and stays noise-free, it DOES have a characteristic timbre consistent within the same build features of that tube: in a U67, aA Telefunken Chrome Plate DOES sound different from an Amperex mesh plate, and so on.

What is abundantly clear, though, is the utter mediocrity in sound and long-term unreliability of Russian microphone tubes.

There was just one exception: a waffle plate pre-Sovtek, pre-New Sensor Svetlana Russian military 6K32N -EF86; but that was many years ago....
Old 28th November 2018
  #966
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jjblair's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanBSC View Post
So if you gotta have the vintage U67 sound, the NOS tubes are the way to go. BUT if you just want a versatile general purpose mic for modern music that sounds like a good U87, but better, the Russian is a perfect match. I can imagine that to place it side by side with a locker of vintage mics, the various mods discussed here will probably get you close, but it definitely sounds excellent as is (even with the thin chord).
I agree. Even with the stock tube, it's great mic. And actually, when it comes to vocals, I frequently don't like a lot of low end. It's why I prefer earlier M49s, ir why I don't like orange paint CK12s in 251s: I don't want that low end on a vocal, most of the time.
Old 29th November 2018
  #967
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doorknocker's Avatar
It would be great to hear the reissue vs. original in context. Shootouts are interesting but I really think that they only tell us so much as 99% of the time the mic will coexist with other tracks.

Pretty much like the guitar pedal demonstrations where that new super fuzz sound amazing on its own but simply disappears in a mix. Even though the U67 is a hi-end product I still think much of its appeal comes from the 'workhorse' aspect that makes it so desireable. Before we get into tube details (of course this is important and does make a big difference) I would like to hear the mic in context. And also being compared to both new and old U87s for example.
Old 29th November 2018
  #968
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I really liked and enjoyed Kroc's vocal mic comparisons. Chris
Old 30th November 2018
  #969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
I agree. Even with the stock tube, it's great mic. And actually, when it comes to vocals, I frequently don't like a lot of low end. It's why I prefer earlier M49s, ir why I don't like orange paint CK12s in 251s: I don't want that low end on a vocal, most of the time.
Yes, I just got a Bock 47 home and am experiencing the same thing. The extra low end on the Bock vs. an original 47 is undesirable when using it as a vocal mic IMO. Got to eq that bass out if I want to get close to that vintage 47 vocal sound. I can do this by backing off the mic. But then i don't get that up close and intimate sound.
Old 30th November 2018
  #970
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by u87allen View Post
Yes, I just got a Bock 47 home and am experiencing the same thing. The extra low end on the Bock vs. an original 47 is undesirable when using it as a vocal mic IMO. Got to eq that bass out if I want to get close to that vintage 47 vocal sound. I can do this by backing off the mic. But then i don't get that up close and intimate sound.
When I use the Bock 47 I always but flat maybe only do a hi pass down low for unnecessary rumble
But I’ve done vocal fixes on u47 tracks with the Bock and no one can tell it was
Old 30th November 2018
  #971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
But I’ve done vocal fixes on u47 tracks with the Bock and no one can tell it was
Good to know. That bass just sounds wrong many times. I've not had 1st hand experience with a real 47, so maybe that sound I'm going for(that I've heard on some records) has some low cut, or mid-boost, in it and it's not the microphone.

That low end sounds awesome on other things though. Just on vocals it's been bugging me.
Old 1st December 2018
  #972
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emrr's Avatar
I snuck a tiny switch into mine so I can change S2 position. I find the extra lows seductive in an AB listen, but the stock HPF really more like what will end up done to vocals in a mix anyway.

Some of you are finding similar things to what I found going through a pile of different tubes, I think I commented on it earlier. Some of the current faves were not my faves, at least with the samples I had. There were pretty big differences in low end just from tube swaps in mine. As always, use your ears and find the balance you like, for your particular capsule.
Old 1st December 2018
  #973
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RoundBadge's Avatar
After Klaus tweaked my capsule I dig the stock tube more
Old 1st December 2018
  #974
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by u87allen View Post
Good to know. That bass just sounds wrong many times. I've not had 1st hand experience with a real 47, so maybe that sound I'm going for(that I've heard on some records) has some low cut, or mid-boost, in it and it's not the microphone.

That low end sounds awesome on other things though. Just on vocals it's been bugging me.
If the bass sounds wrong on a voice I’ll switch the mic
W the Bock it’s cut flat with a little hi pass 40hz junk.that usually sounds like a47
Eq or jazz it up whatever later
Old 28th January 2019
  #975
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Glad to say the U67 Reissue they put up at NAMM sounded terrific! Chris
Old 29th January 2019
  #976
AB3
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Sorry - I have not read the whole thread. Is it using an ef86 tube?
Thanks,
AB
Old 29th January 2019
  #977
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I have to review that myself. Compared to "The Heavyweights" on this thread-I'm just a featherweight!

If this particular U67 RI, is a 10...

The one last year was no more than a 8.5 IMHO.
I think it had capsule tensioning and/or a tube issue.
Chris
Old 29th January 2019
  #978
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

The stock hpf is remarkably resistant to breath pops without adding the coloration of a windscreen.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #979
Here for the gear
Quality of the 2018 Reissue of the U67 - some hints

Since the Neumann U67 is really worth to talk about (and use it!), some hints from my side - it may be helpful for someone:

A) Talk with Gunter Wagner in 2017: Why does Neumann not make a U67 reissue:
Gunter explained to me in detail, why even a company like Neumann had real difficulties to bring a U67 back in production.
To make such a mic, you also needed a lot of parts, some of which might not be longer available, as for instance the EF86.
The capsule protection is done by three different layers, all of them have their effect on the sound of the mic, by the way the let the sound penetrate the material and reflect inside the capsule dome. Some of them are no longer produced, and so on.

B) Gunter made clear to me: Neumann's 1992 remake of the 60ties U67 was as good as the first series - no difference!
This gives a valuable hint for the 2018 remake.

C) In 2018 Neumann brought the U67 back on the market.

D) Klaus Heyne has done a serious review on the 2018 U67 reissue.
The good news: the body, the amplifier, is just as good as the vintage one - no difference in sound quality when he put a vintage capsule and EF86 on the mic's body:
Neumann U67 Reissue

E) The review of Klaus has been subject to serious evaluation in another forum:
http://*******************/thread/89...reissue?page=1

Klaus replied in detail to questions this thread yesterday, please go to page 8.

F) In the new Neumann U67, the russian tube has to be replaced by a good EF 86. Such improvement is a must. Apart from fore mentioned review you can also read here: Neumann U67 reissue vs vintage video
When you buy your Neumann U67 from Echoschall/ Berlin Carsten Lohmann will put a NOS EF 86 in your mic, for free.
Echoschall - Verleih fur Studiotechnik: Neumann U67 Verkauf

Some more links on the U67 you will find in here:
YouTube


G) Does anyone offer this kind of sercvice (to put an EF86 in it) upon buying a new U67 in the USA?

H) Some new U67 have issues with the capsule tension, according to serious observations of Klaus Heyne.
It seems Neumann Berlin is working on this issue, try their best to get the production of the K870 back to old gold standard.

I) I did an audio book with a pair of KM54 and a Revox A700 around 1987, which was not a too bad choice for a beginner in 1987.
I recently got a Neumann U67 - to me, having heard it, a new era has opened. After many years I got interested in voice recording again.
But with a new U67, with some feedback from Klaus Heyne (for now) you can get the same result. And you will not kind of "spend" your funds in a microfone, rather invest in it.
And you will have a reference, a tool you can rely on, for the next decades.

You may end up eating breadcrumps like Stedal had do in Christmas 2005 when he bought a Brauner and a WU47 from Gunter Wagner, but most likely you will not regret it: Gunter Wagner U47/ ORIGINAL NEUMANN U47 / NUEMANN M149

J) In case you are just after voice recording, you can try this:
Neumann U67 - V72 - Fostex FR-2 or Nagra 4.2, or b o t h of them.
As for me I tend to be a little bit old-fashioned, I prefer to have a tape on the shelf too.

K) In case you do not know where to take the funds to buy a serious microfone, please do not ask me: I need to eat breadcrumps too at the moment.
You may ask your parents or your aunt - this is a good option to invest in your future.

Matthias
Old 4 weeks ago
  #980
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
I tried many nos tubes in my re issue
Telefunken,Amprex etc
I kept going back to the one that came with it.
Btw Klaus retuned the capsule
Sounds great.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #981
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jjblair's Avatar
And my experience was very different from Round Badge's. Perhaps he got a tube with a different response, but I find the stock tube is missing a lower octave compared to a couple different vintage tubes.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
And my experience was very different from Round Badge's. Perhaps he got a tube with a different response, but I find the stock tube is missing a lower octave compared to a couple different vintage tubes.
What area (in frequencies) are you missing?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #983
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
I tried many nos tubes in my re issue
Telefunken,Amprex etc
I kept going back to the one that came with it.
Btw Klaus retuned the capsule
Sounds great.
NOS often means “wasn’t good enough at the time” of course!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #984
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
NOS often means “wasn’t good enough at the time” of course!
True lol although our good man tube guru Bowie hand selected them for me.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #985
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
True lol although our good man tube guru Bowie hand selected them for me.
That's good - hopefully you dodged that particular bullet then!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #986
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
That's good - hopefully you dodged that particular bullet then!
Yes he’s very particular selective with NOS tubes
Old 3 weeks ago
  #987
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
Nobody listening to music seems to care what was used... only us geeks. lol
Haha so true
It’s like “the recording studio” skit on Portlandia
YouTube
Old 3 weeks ago
  #988
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Silvertone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
Haha so true
It’s like “the recording studio” skit on Portlandia
YouTube
That is always a funny skit... we all know engineers like that. lol
Old 3 weeks ago
  #989
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
Exactly. And truth be told, it's all about 'brand recognition' these days with some people. Your recordings won't get better with a U67 if the other ingridients (experience/room/workflow/talent) are not up to par.

What really is funny is that there always was a lot of complaining about the out-of-control vintage market and now that on of the holy grail mics of said market gets reissued folks still complain. Fact is: The reissue is quite a bit more affordable than a vintage U67 that you may buy at risk and most probably would needs expensive servicing on top of that.

Also, no reissue - no matter how accurate - will sound exactly the same as an original. First because each 'original' is slightly (or not so slightly) different anyway. And secondly because any 'real' gear (as in 'hardware') will go trhough a burn-in period and (mostly) improve with regular use.

Actually, your recording WILL usually get better with a U67 even if the other stuff is crapola. I mean,..don't even get me started. I've never used a re-issue U67 so can't comment on that,. But I can comment that if your room is crap, etc.,U67s will still give you loads cooler sound in most scenarios than most other mics. Take a superlead maxed out, for instance,.. It is very hard to tell the difference between a U67 and SM57 when doing an a/b listen on 2 separate tracks, believe it or not,. But when you are mixing down,..it is so much less trouble with U67 mics and the difference is so HUGE,. Everything just belongs together and there is much less of a "fight" between instruments and tracks. Having said that, I cannot say that the U67 even sounds better on electric guitar, but I can say in no uncertain terms that I'd rather use U67s,..there is so much pain in the [email protected] saved when U67s are involved. Back in the 80s,. we recorded with U67s quite a bit,. There were many around and they usually costed a fair bit less than a U87 at the time. Nowadays they are hard to find. I only own one, and it's from the batch Neumann made in 1991 or whenever it was. It has sat in the case for 15 years, and before that,.. was only used a few times,. I highly doubt it is going to sound any different than a new one (knowing Neumann). I might be wrong on that. I see really a lot of inexpensive stuff out there than Neumann has made the last 20 years. Like the M147, etc., I think the M147 was pretty much a dud compared to what they "thought" it was going to be. I think the first "inexpensive expensive mic they did (that I recall) was the TLM170. It wasn't that cheap,..and sounded ok to me. But looking out there now there are so many of their cheap mics out there. I'm guessing most of them are a case of Neumann cashing in on their brand name,. But I don't do much in the business anymore so I could be wrong. I've heard that a "current" 414 is not what they used to be...So maybe AKG has done the same thing also. Don't know. Ok, sorry for the long post. I didn't intend to but read that first line and thought someone really didn't know what they were talking about.
Here is something related to what I'm trying to say......ONLY SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT HAVE A SUPERLEAD WITH FOUR 4x12s WOULD BE SO FOOLISH AS TO THINK A MODELING AMP IS JUST AS GOOD (No matter what other garbage is involved). The superlead is always going to do it's job better than a modeling amp trying to be a superlead (or a DR103 for that matter).
Old 3 weeks ago
  #990
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mattcollen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by puke View Post
Actually, your recording WILL usually get better with a U67 even if the other stuff is crapola. I mean,..don't even get me started. I've never used a re-issue U67 so can't comment on that,. But I can comment that if your room is crap, etc.,U67s will still give you loads cooler sound in most scenarios than most other mics. Take a superlead maxed out, for instance,.. It is very hard to tell the difference between a U67 and SM57 when doing an a/b listen on 2 separate tracks, believe it or not,. But when you are mixing down,..it is so much less trouble with U67 mics and the difference is so HUGE,. Everything just belongs together and there is much less of a "fight" between instruments and tracks. Having said that, I cannot say that the U67 even sounds better on electric guitar, but I can say in no uncertain terms that I'd rather use U67s,..there is so much pain in the [email protected] saved when U67s are involved. Back in the 80s,. we recorded with U67s quite a bit,. There were many around and they usually costed a fair bit less than a U87 at the time. Nowadays they are hard to find. I only own one, and it's from the batch Neumann made in 1991 or whenever it was. It has sat in the case for 15 years, and before that,.. was only used a few times,. I highly doubt it is going to sound any different than a new one (knowing Neumann). I might be wrong on that. I see really a lot of inexpensive stuff out there than Neumann has made the last 20 years. Like the M147, etc., I think the M147 was pretty much a dud compared to what they "thought" it was going to be. I think the first "inexpensive expensive mic they did (that I recall) was the TLM170. It wasn't that cheap,..and sounded ok to me. But looking out there now there are so many of their cheap mics out there. I'm guessing most of them are a case of Neumann cashing in on their brand name,. But I don't do much in the business anymore so I could be wrong. I've heard that a "current" 414 is not what they used to be...So maybe AKG has done the same thing also. Don't know. Ok, sorry for the long post. I didn't intend to but read that first line and thought someone really didn't know what they were talking about.
Here is something related to what I'm trying to say......ONLY SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT HAVE A SUPERLEAD WITH FOUR 4x12s WOULD BE SO FOOLISH AS TO THINK A MODELING AMP IS JUST AS GOOD (No matter what other garbage is involved). The superlead is always going to do it's job better than a modeling amp trying to be a superlead (or a DR103 for that matter).
My U67 reissue is my dream mic, and I’ve owned (and still do) tons of great vintage gear. As long as the capsule tensioning is not an issue, the new U67s are every bit as good as the old ones. It does make recording easier. Great tools truly help.
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