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Marketing a high end room with mid level gear. Reverb & Delay Plugins
Old 7th March 2018
  #121
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JayTee4303's Avatar
Marketing?
Old 7th March 2018
  #122
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
The amount of misinformation out there about native vs HD is overwhelming, and I've just given up arguing with people about it. Think about this, for every guy with a tracking room and HD, there are a thousand guys with home systems who only ever track mono vocal or guitar over soft synths and loops. (I get it, I have that native setup myself at home, where I do most of my writing.) Try being the .1% and convincing them why a tracking facility needs HD features. They all post in these forums, and they all have opinions why what's working for them is the best and why they can do everything a tracking facility can with their native rig if they had to in some hypothetical situation. Come at it another way: look at the kind of studio you want to compete with, and look at their tracking setup.

There's a reason the pros stick with HD for big tracking. It's tiresome arguing with people who don't have the need, so that's all I'll say on the subject. When you have the need you will probably realize it. Until then native is great. It's amazing what you can do with native, no argument from me there.
What's the newest computer you have used though?

I've had a commercial studio for a while now and ran TDM for more than a decade- so I could count myself as that .1%, although I'm not doing orchestras etc but I have 32 inputs and regularly use them all.

Right now I have 2 5960x hacks and a 12 core nMP, 3 full time engineers and am expanding into a 2400 sf facility which will have 2 CR's and will ultimately accommodate staff up to 8-9.

I have 0 plans to move to HDX. Native systems are fine for me other than I'm hoping with PT Ultimate we can get up to 64 IO or more with 3rd party interfaces.

IMO HDX is a poorly put together system- you will have to use native for good reverbs anyway which is the major flaw, then you have to do a dance to maintain the low latency and frankly when I've been in some HDX studios recently I've noticed that they aren't doing that. IOW they are tracking with full native latency, set to 64 buffer, and not even realizing it, and maybe more importantly, not having any issues.

Personally I will be surprised if there is a successor to HDX. Looking at a 7980XE and beyond, I don't think there is a future there.

IMO a lot (not all) of the way people perceive the importance of DSP has more to do with Apple dropping the ball on audio users wants & needs then an actual need for DSP at this point. And the nMP is actually a pretty capable little machine...people just didn't get on board with them.
Old 7th March 2018
  #123
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Well you just don't have to think - it works. Whatever's going on in the session. And some singers I've had are sensitive to ANY latency...
Not to nitpick, and we've done this dance before (lol), but aren't you still using a hearback system?

Thats 1.5ms right there. And they don't spec if that includes oversampling from AD converters or if that number is only with the adat in... (those things also sound terrible BTW (I owned one), the behringer system is much better and lower latency IMO)

Fully analog (with no digital headphone system at all) is the only real no latency (relatively speaking) system. Hell even at that you can't insert an analog eq with *some* group delay.

I mean, technically there is about a foot from the vocal chords to the ear. Not sure how fast sound travels through flesh, but if it was air that would be 1ms on it's own as well.

Once we get under 2-3ms, you can't separate a persons vocal chords from their body so any attempt at objectivity goes out the window here.
Old 8th March 2018
  #124
Lives for gear
Just re-read my posts there and they come off a bit more aggressive than I intended. I respect HDX and people who get the most out of it, personally I wouldn't suggest the OP finance it at this time...

@SydBeretta what I would do in your situation is to think outside the band oriented box only and look for other addional things that can keep you booked. For instance call some local video production people, do they have a need for a small sound stage? A lot of video guys are shooting things like corporate interviews, and while there may be some photo/video studios around, often times none of them have usable acoustics. If you build a movable wall with some various vinyl backdrops you can possibly fill in day bookings with stuff like that.

Also what can you offer in the production world? Consider people who sing, have always wanted to make a record, but don't have access to bands and musicians to join their cause. The lady who sings in the choir and always wanted to record some of her original christian songs, wealthy kids who want to do some pop records but don't know where to start...

Local rap scene? If the isolation is there, can you rent the live room to a drum teacher while your mixing? Or maybe do some music production lessons etc. Even backlined rehearsal space might be worth it if you can figure out how to work around it.

Of course you have your bands too...
Old 8th March 2018
  #125
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Just re-read my posts there and they come off a bit more aggressive than I intended. I respect HDX and people who get the most out of it, personally I wouldn't suggest the OP finance it at this time...

@SydBeretta what I would do in your situation is to think outside the band oriented box only and look for other addional things that can keep you booked. For instance call some local video production people, do they have a need for a small sound stage? A lot of video guys are shooting things like corporate interviews, and while there may be some photo/video studios around, often times none of them have usable acoustics. If you build a movable wall with some various vinyl backdrops you can possibly fill in day bookings with stuff like that.

Also what can you offer in the production world? Consider people who sing, have always wanted to make a record, but don't have access to bands and musicians to join their cause. The lady who sings in the choir and always wanted to record some of her original christian songs, wealthy kids who want to do some pop records but don't know where to start...

Local rap scene? If the isolation is there, can you rent the live room to a drum teacher while your mixing? Or maybe do some music production lessons etc. Even backlined rehearsal space might be worth it if you can figure out how to work around it.

Of course you have your bands too...
Those are all great ideas. We've done a few of those so far. I know some of the other engineers in town that get a lot of karaoke sessions and songwriter demos. We don't seem to attract that kind of thing. I imagine that type of person probably thinks we're more expensive than we are. Unfortunately the video production world seems to be almost non-existent here as is the rap scene. The closest clients would be in Huntsville most likely which is two hours away. I would like to start marketing to that area though.
Old 9th March 2018
  #126
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bambamboom's Avatar
For sure you should market to the Huntsville region.

I guess one of the downsides is that Nashville (AKA land of a thousand studios) is only about 3hrs away from your county, so is probably drawing away a lot of people.

I also didn't realize how low the population of Muscle Shoals (and in fact your whole metro region) is. I would have guessed much larger. Statistically that makes it tough.

I bet there are lots of tourists in the region - is there some angle you could find there? Or perhaps you could organize something along the lines of the rock & roll fantasy camps, except muscle shoals themed?

I think the key to success in modern times as a studio is to have MANY "irons in the fire". This seems especially true in your situation.
Old 9th March 2018
  #127
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Crazy4Jazz's Avatar
 

Make a hit song. Does it every time.
Old 9th March 2018
  #128
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Not to nitpick, and we've done this dance before (lol), but aren't you still using a hearback system?

Thats 1.5ms right there. And they don't spec if that includes oversampling from AD converters or if that number is only with the adat in... (those things also sound terrible BTW (I owned one), the behringer system is much better and lower latency IMO)

Fully analog (with no digital headphone system at all) is the only real no latency (relatively speaking) system. Hell even at that you can't insert an analog eq with *some* group delay.

I mean, technically there is about a foot from the vocal chords to the ear. Not sure how fast sound travels through flesh, but if it was air that would be 1ms on it's own as well.

Once we get under 2-3ms, you can't separate a persons vocal chords from their body so any attempt at objectivity goes out the window here.
Yeah I get all that. I think with head resonances you’re looking at quicker than that though - bone being denser than air thus far quicker at transmission, basic physics I think tells us that - but you’re not wrong about hearback latency.

Eventually I’m intending having the HB brain digitally linked to the converters, but physically that’s quite a big operation for us to achieve! Which would take out one round of ad/da.

But yeah - I guess what I’m saying is i know I’ve got that latency, so I need to minimise things on top of that.

Oh, and I have an old school-style analogue headphone option too if I need it. I have needed it at times!

I’m also very certain I track properly when using hdx, but I know what you mean - people using crazy native plugin chains to print through (it seems to be a fairly American thing that, none of the brits or aussies I work with ever do it).
Old 9th March 2018
  #129
Lives for gear
 

This thread has become more about debunking DAW myths than about marketing the OP's studio. Sorry, Syd.

I realize I'm sounding like a UAD fanboy at this point but I'm just not experiencing any of the issues with my system that people on this thread think I should be. Which DAW I use or which version of Pro Tools I use doesn't matter, because I am not monitoring through the DAW. I'm direct monitoring. It sounds like I am actually getting lower latency in many situations than Pro Tools HD users. I still don't get why track count or cue mixes would affect that.

The only thing PTHD would give me is the ability to mix in surround or if for some confounding reason I couldn't make 32 digital ins and 128 tracks work. I don't work with film.

I don't cater to freelancers. That's a different ball game that I can't afford to play. ("Sure, I would love to freelance in your studio, you just need to invest another $xx,xxx in specific gear that I prefer to use.")

Back to the original topic, Syd's situation sounds grim. It sounds like you are counting on clients traveling hours to get to your studio. In that case I would put all of my focus on providing comfortable and enticing accommodations. Make it a destination spot where a band can live comfortably and have a great experience while recording their album. I don't think gear is your problem.
Old 9th March 2018
  #130
Some great input in this thread.

I would add +10000 to the Website. A proper website, with maps, photos, contact number, rates (if you like), embedded videos form your youtube channel and on every page ... milking the history of the place.


I also think if you are just a few hours drive from Nashville that you could offer an alternative package deal with a "get away from the bustle" type message. Get a great lunch deal from a local restaurant, discounts from local hotels if someone wants to overnight in your town. And have an "All Inclusive" deal on your brand spanking new website that means they don't have to do anything more than turn up at your door.

Find a list of producers that work in Nashville and send them a special offer price. Go to Nashville and drop your business card (with a link to your new website!) into every hand you shake. Hustle my friend.. hustle!

You are just a few hours from a huuuge music-recording population. All you need is to find a small part of those people who are fed up with the same old, same old Nashville routine and bring them your way.

Wishing you every success!
Old 9th March 2018
  #131
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
What's the newest computer you have used though? ...etc
But you're still advertising that you have ProTools HD hardware on your studio website. It's actually the first thing you mention on your gear page.



Recording Equipment - Conway Soundproduction-recording
Old 10th March 2018
  #132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
Make a hit song. Does it every time.
I'm trying!¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Old 10th March 2018
  #133
Quote:
Originally Posted by javamad View Post
Some great input in this thread.

I would add +10000 to the Website. A proper website, with maps, photos, contact number, rates (if you like), embedded videos form your youtube channel and on every page ... milking the history of the place.


I also think if you are just a few hours drive from Nashville that you could offer an alternative package deal with a "get away from the bustle" type message. Get a great lunch deal from a local restaurant, discounts from local hotels if someone wants to overnight in your town. And have an "All Inclusive" deal on your brand spanking new website that means they don't have to do anything more than turn up at your door.

Find a list of producers that work in Nashville and send them a special offer price. Go to Nashville and drop your business card (with a link to your new website!) into every hand you shake. Hustle my friend.. hustle!

You are just a few hours from a huuuge music-recording population. All you need is to find a small part of those people who are fed up with the same old, same old Nashville routine and bring them your way.

Wishing you every success!
Thank you! I totally agree, it's been on my mind to partner with hotels or people with Airbnb properties. There could also lead to some joint advertising. I've even had some conversations about forming some kind of alliance with all the studios in the area and marketing the whole area in magazines or websites. There are several nice and/or historical studios in the area.

Last edited by SydBeretta; 10th March 2018 at 12:43 AM.. Reason: spelling
Old 10th March 2018
  #134
vibe vibe vibe vibe. I would pay top dollar for a high end room with mid level gear and tons of vibe. Look at the lighting, color of the walls, furniture, layout of the room, etc. Keep it simple though. Remember you're not marketing to engineers or gearsluts you're marketing your studio to artists.
Old 10th March 2018
  #135
Quote:
Originally Posted by auralart View Post
vibe vibe vibe vibe. I would pay top dollar for a high end room with mid level gear and tons of vibe. Look at the lighting, color of the walls, furniture, layout of the room, etc. Keep it simple though. Remember you're not marketing to engineers or gearsluts you're marketing your studio to artists.
Thankfully that's the one thing we have going for us. I could probably vibe up the furniture and lighting a little bit but the rest of the studio is still just like it was in 1978. The right person with a decent budget could literally turn it into a movie set. We also have the best view in town as we're right on the river. Sunsets are amazing.
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Marketing a high end room with mid level gear.-img_6349.jpg  
Old 10th March 2018
  #136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SydBeretta View Post
Thankfully that's the one thing we have going for us. I could probably vibe up the furniture and lighting a little bit but the rest of the studio is still just like it was in 1978. The right person with a decent budget could literally turn it into a movie set. We also have the best view in town as we're right on the river. Sunsets are amazing.
How does anyone get any work done with a view like that? damn.

What's your website?
Old 10th March 2018
  #137
Lives for gear
 
Cardinal_SINE's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
But you're still advertising that you have ProTools HD hardware on your studio website. It's actually the first thing you mention on your gear page.



Recording Equipment - Conway Soundproduction-recording
Majority of clients have no idea what HD is. They only know the words "Pro Tools". The people that actually do know what HD is, also know there are better native systems available these days. Performance and sound wise.
Old 10th March 2018
  #138
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
But you're still advertising that you have ProTools HD hardware on your studio website. It's actually the first thing you mention on your gear page.



Recording Equipment - Conway Soundproduction-recording
Yeah my website is way out of date. And I do have HD, just no TDM or HDX (which I took to be your point, DSP more so than an HD software license)- still have enough features in the HD software that I use. I have an HD|N card, but I'm not using it at this point either...
Old 10th March 2018
  #139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal_SINE View Post
Majority of clients have no idea what HD is. They only know the words "Pro Tools". The people that actually do know what HD is, also know there are better native systems available these days. Performance and sound wise.
It depends if your “clients” are engineers or bands of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Yeah my website is way out of date. And I do have HD, just no TDM or HDX (which I took to be your point, DSP more so than an HD software license)- still have enough features in the HD software that I use. I have an HD|N card, but I'm not using it at this point either...
If you’re marketing to engineers - if your advertising “PT HD” I’d expect HDX or TDM. I mean...personally I’d confirm what I was booking, but it’s the system not just the software.

I know Avid don’t make it clear anymore, and I know it’s not technically wrong to state you’re running HD with no hardware...but it’s misleadign and a big deal if you’re tracking a band.
Old 10th March 2018
  #140
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arr0wHead View Post
I'm not a web expert, so someone else could explain this better... BUT

Sites like Weebly, Wix, etc... are not always a great option when you're trying to get your brand out. They do not index with search engines the same way (or something like that, again someone else can explain better) so your site will wind up buried in later pages of web search results.


Just a slight correction. As a result of this thread and your post, I was reading about SEO optimization with WIX since I’m thinking about rebranding and switching over to their web hosting. Turns out they have several SEO optimization features as well as Google indexing for those with pro accounts. Just search “SEO with WIX” and it should come up.
Old 11th March 2018
  #141
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by piano View Post
A decent guitarist on a great guitar will sound better than Steve Vai on a children's toy plastic four string guitar.
For those of you who doubt this...

Come on, be real. This taken literally is true. Have you ever played a children's toy plastic four string guitar? Impossible to tune, no intonation to speak of. Yes Steve Vai is an amazing guitarist, but even he would be severely limited by a four string plastic toy. This is different than the $100 guitar/amp that Satriani played. At least that thing could be kept somewhat in tune.

Also, read what the post says "A decent guitarist on a great guitar will sound better". Did you get the part that reads "will sound better"? Not "be", or "is" better. Of course the "decent" guitarist will sound better". Give Steve Vai that same great guitar, then yeah, all bets are off.
Old 11th March 2018
  #142
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Yeah my website is way out of date. And I do have HD, just no TDM or HDX (which I took to be your point, DSP more so than an HD software license)- still have enough features in the HD software that I use. I have an HD|N card, but I'm not using it at this point either...
You should probably update that to just show native right? I mean, you're telling another guy that there's no demand for DSP hardware out there... but you're still prominently advertising it.

I prominently advertise it myself- yes most people don't know the difference, but the ones that do are actually the legit clients, who are few and far between for studios out in the sticks, like ours.

This guy wants to sell time in a beautiful tracking space... if I were him, I would consider other engineers and producers as a key market, and assume they know what they want in a space. And many expect ProTools DSP systems in a tracking space.
Old 12th March 2018
  #143
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
You should probably update that to just show native right? I mean, you're telling another guy that there's no demand for DSP hardware out there... but you're still prominently advertising it.
.
If my clientele was coming through the website I would deal with it, but they aren't and we're too busy to fit in any freelancers outside of us at this time. The whole website will be redone when the new studio is done.

As far as I'm concerned, Avid get's to determine what HD means. And it doesn't mean DSP. TDM and HDX are the names for the DSP systems, if a freelancer isn't aware of what they need that's really their issue. Is pschyomonkey required to disclose the RTL of his headphone system? Caveat Emptor.

As for discerning clients, I don't see that anymore with DSP either. I just had a band (Imperial Teen) in where 2 of the members were originally in Faith No More...so they've done tape, PT+LFAC in the past in high level environments. They are all working on native systems at home, our session went off without a hitch, nobody asked or cared about DSP. I have a bunch of the Hamilton touring company coming in for sessions while they are here, DSP is simply not coming up.

Frankly I don't get the justification for sub 3ms monitoring for bands. A drummer, has never once in his life experienced a snare drum with less than 2-3ms of latency as his ears are 2-3ft from the drum and the speed of sound is 1.1ms per foot. An analog foldback of a close mic snare will actually hit the drummers ears BEFORE the acoustic signal...Back in the day DSP made more sense purely because you couldn't reliably track with a 32 or 64 sample buffer- that's not true anymore.

Also these are the sample latencies of a bunch of AAX-DSP plugins-

AVID:
Channel Strip = 10
EQ3 = 10
Pultec = 10
All BF = 10
Dyn 3 = 10
Fairchild = 10
Impact = 10
Pro Comp = 10
Pro Exp = 10
Mod Delay = 10
Real Tape delay = 10
RectiFi = 10
Real Tape Sat = 10
SciFi = 10
purple 77 = 13
Smack = 11
Pro Multiband = 34
Pro Limiter = 73
Gray Comp = 34
Black Spring = 66
Dverb = 34
Reverb One = 66
Revibe = 66
Space = 66
Studio Reverb = 66
Tape Echo = 66
SansAmp = 63
Black shiny Wah = 34
C1, Flanger, Orange Phasor, Vibe Phasor = 66
Real Tape Flanger = 4811 !!!!!
Roto Speaker = 34
Distortion Pedals (all) = 66
Pro Subharmonic = 394


METRIC HALO
Channel Strip = 10

SOFTUBE
Summit EQ = 34
Summit Grand Ch = 38
Tube Tech Classic Ch = 38
Tube tech pultecs = 42
FET Comp = 34

From a fellow source I have talked with about this...
PLUGIN-ALLIANCE
XLA-3 = 76
BX Limiter = 348
Refinement = 76
Saturation V2 = 56
All Elysias = 76
SPL PassEq = 60
SPL Vitalizer = 60
VSM-3 = 76
All others are 34.

Many (most) of these same plugins are 0 samples in native land. If we are talking about monitoring through a relatively basic mix, with inserts of say gate, comp, eq bussed to an aux and a few color compressors here and there, it's very easy for HDX to end up with a comparable RTL to a state of the art native system in the real world, or have limited functionality in comparison.

I have spoken to many freelancers in my target price range for the new space (150-300/day for the studio, which is scalable), many of whom are only doing bands, and not one of them were worried about an HDX system. Additionally in my area only the older studios are running DSP rigs- the places doing the most bands, which are newer more mid priced places (around 50/hr here) are all native (though many advertise HD software).

I certainly can't say that this info applies to everyone out there, this is simply where I'm coming from having just done a fair amount of research into my market. I respect that PM is in a different realm of expectations (and prices), and his input is always very interesting to me, and I respect that there is a lot of different niches/avenues in this biz and respect your position as well...

But that all said I find it highly unlikely that the OP could finance a DSP rig, add it to his website, and have that be the silver bullet that shoots his bookings through the roof. Maybe I'm wrong...hell maybe I'll end up getting a HDX card at some point to accommodate people who are asking for it- but at this point I doubt it unless there is a massive shift in the development of dedicated DSP chips vs intel/amd.
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