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Split a Analog Console in two parts for DAW Centersection Control Surfaces
Old 3rd February 2018
  #1
Gear Addict
Split a Analog Console in two parts for DAW Centersection

Hi all,

I am looking for advice on a complex thing.

I own a large old CADAC G Serie Desk with total 60 Channels.
I think to separate this console to include a 1 meter Centersection with an AVID S3 and an AVID Dock. The Split needed to be after Channel 17 already, so that the DAW Station is in the middle. My console has an unballanced bussystem, as typical done in those years (1974). The Cables can not just be made longer, that would result in injection and noise problems. Also the Console was not built in frames (like some neves or Studer 903). A lot of metal and wood girders needed to be separated, and longer ones had to be produced. A 4rth food and new armrest and wood etc...

I am really unsure if this makes sense. We are a high-end Studio here and it would be the most beautiful way to do it on the other hand. For sure we need a solution that looks absolutely stunning. (Until now we had a D-Control that was standing next to the Cadac with its own monitor speakers, but two large console next to each other, that looks too big) Half of our project are analog with Flying Fader Automation, but with ProTools as Playback, the other 40% are ProTools-mixed based (Automation done in PTools) but with analog summing on the CADAC and EQ's and INserts. 10% is completely in the Box.

Has anyone done such a thing and could elaborate a little bit? How expensive was it? Did you had work / problems / coast that you did not think before? Would you do it again? Maybe you even could send me some pics.

The other Options would be
a) a sled system on the CADAC on which the controllers could sit and even be mooved on the CADAC (and even taken away on full analog projcets). Much cheaper. But usually not looking as good.
b) A Furniture with the AVID Controllers, a Screen, a USB Keyboard, Mouse and maybe even two speakeres. That could be at the Side of the analog board as it is in many Studios. But for ProTools Main Work the little Speakers there has to be used. Or then the furniture can be rolled in front of the CADAC, but that often does not look so nice, and I wouldn't sit in the optimal listening position anymore.

Here is a pic of the CADAC in my controlroom:




Thanks for any input
Daniel
Idee und Klang | Tonstudio und Audio Design - Basel

Last edited by idee und klang; 4th February 2018 at 08:07 PM.. Reason: spelling
Old 3rd February 2018
  #2
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by idee und klang View Post
Hi all,

I am looking for advice on a complex thing.

I own a large old CADAC G Serie Desk with total 60 Channels.
I think to separate this console to include a 1 meter Centersection with an AVID S3 and an AVID Dock. The Split needed to be after Channel 17 already, so that the DAW Station is in the middle. My console has an unballanced bussystem, as typical done in those years (1974). The Cables can not just be made longer, that would result in injection and noise problems. Also the Console in not build in frames (like some neves or Studer 903). A lot of metal and wood girders needed to be separated, and longer ones had to be produced. A 4rth food and new armrest and wood etc...

I am really unsure if this makes sense. We are a high-end Studio here and it would be the most beautiful way to do it on the other hand. For sure we need a solution that looks absolutely stunning. (Until now we had a D-Control that was standing next to the Cadac with its own monitor speakers, but two large console next to each other, that looks too big) Half of our project is analog with Flying Fader Automation, but with ProTools as Playback, the other 40% are ProTools-mixed based (Automation done in PTools) but with analog summing and EQ's and INserts. 10% is completely in the Box.

Has anyone done such a thing and could elaborate a little bit? How expensive was it? Die you had work / problems / coast that you did not think before? Would you do it again? Maybe you even could send me some pics.

The other Options would be
a) a sled system on the CADAC on which the controllers could sit and even be mooved. Much cheaper. But usually not looking as good.
b) A Furniture with the AVID Controllers, a Screen, a USB Keyboard, Mouse and maybe even two speakeres. That could be at the Side of the analog board as it is in many Studios. But for ProTools Main Work the little Speakers there has to be used. Or then the furniture can be rolled in front of the CADAC, but that often does not look so nice, and I wouldn't sit in the optimal listening position anymore.

Here is a pic of the CADAC in my controlroom:




Thanks for any input
Daniel
Idee und Klang | Tonstudio und Audio Design - Basel
Looks quite complex to. Lots of details to take care of.

Would be using some articulated arm system as widely used in the industry be an option?
Such freely movable arms allow a free positioning and all cabling is invisible, fully protected inside the hollow profiles and articulated joints. There are many manufacturers and systems in all sizes.

Rolec, a great not so known manufacturer (especially also for alumium cases):
Enclosures, Accessories, Suspension Arms | ROLEC
another manufacturer:
HASEKE: Industry
and also
Rittal AG

You can do a search for:
Tragarmsysteme

Make sure to avoid plastic versions.

Of course esthetically it may not meet your expectations. It's just an idea about a possible option.
Old 4th February 2018
  #3
Lives for gear
 
cheu78's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schoeller View Post
Looks quite complex to. Lots of details to take care of.

Would be using some articulated arm system as widely used in the industry be an option?
Such freely movable arms allow a free positioning and all cabling is invisible, fully protected inside the hollow profiles and articulated joints. There are many manufacturers and systems in all sizes.

Rolec, a great not so known manufacturer (especially also for alumium cases):
Enclosures, Accessories, Suspension Arms | ROLEC
another manufacturer:
HASEKE: Industry
and also
Rittal AG

You can do a search for:
Tragarmsysteme

Make sure to avoid plastic versions.

Of course esthetically it may not meet your expectations. It's just an idea about a possible option.
Seems like a clever idea indeed.
Plus the studio will not suffer from downtime or any issues when splitting and redo the internal wiring, which I'd guess is a monumental work.

You might considering some custom made arms or things that will fit more your aesthetics, i believe it will be much less expensive and much less PITA than splitting the cadac..

Maybe not the answers you were looking for..



Cheu
Old 4th February 2018
  #4
Lives for gear
 

Esthetically there can't be much done, maybe some skilled aerograph artist could paint a faux wood decoration.
Only square tubes could possibly be carefully covered with wood laminates or however it's called but beside painting I don't see any other good option for the articulations (joints).
Also check sizes as they widely vary, some are just for a few kg while others suprisingly massive ones take over 100 kg (200 lbs) without any issue (though it also depends on the arm length).

I found some CADAC pics online and IMO it wouldn't be easy to cut the console apart to insert a center section. If really wanted it could can certainly be done but would also represent a huge work as well as a considerable downtime. Not even to mention Murphy's Law surprises typical for such endeavor and all associated risks.
Old 4th February 2018
  #5
Gear Addict
Thanks all,
Indeed an arm system would be an option, and I am thinking about that as well. If then I would let a metalworker do a custom design for our studio.
On the other hand, two of the Designers at CADAC that did actually design the G Series CADAC offered me to think about this too. So if they come to a solution and it would work tecnically and also mechanical it would be a killer solution. The most practical solution however would probably be the "sled" system, on where the controllers sit on sleds on the console. The USB Keyboard and Trackball I would install in the Arm-Rest.
Thx
Daniel
Old 4th February 2018
  #6
Lives for gear
 

If you ever sell the console maybe it could be an advantage to leave it as much as possible without major modifications.

A custom-designed arm is possible but it must be designed very carefully and also some parts must be machined with a high precision. Also forces on joints are surprisingly high so it's definitely not something for tinkers. While commercially available solutions are already expensive, a custom design requires quite deep pockets.
Old 4th February 2018
  #7
Lives for gear
 

peter mueller (titanik studio) in sursee cut his amek angela in 3 sections (8 channels + space for 19" on each side, 24 channel center section, all connectors on d-sub25)
Old 5th February 2018
  #8
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schoeller View Post
If you ever sell the console maybe it could be an advantage to leave it as much as possible without major modifications.

A custom-designed arm is possible but it must be designed very carefully and also some parts must be machined with a high precision. Also forces on joints are surprisingly high so it's definitely not something for tinkers. While commercially available solutions are already expensive, a custom design requires quite deep pockets.
I don't think to sell it at the moment. I guess it could also be an advantage with a DAW Centersection, but who knows. Large CADAC G Series desk are not easy to sell - the Pye CADAC could not be sold for a long time. The Reason is simple, those CADACS are really large, but don't have as many channals as i.e. SSL or Neve that are as large. Also the CADAC's are made for pure quality in sound but lack functions. So there are interessting for Studios owned by a Soundengineer that is the main and only worker in the Studio. But mostly such studios are too little to house a big CADAC. Big Studios normally are based so that multiple engineers can come, but then you need a more modern console with more functions.

I actually think that the SLED System would be best. I agree that to construct a good looking and stable joint system would be more than difficult:-)

Daniel
Old 5th February 2018
  #9
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
peter mueller (titanik studio) in sursee cut his amek angela in 3 sections (8 channels + space for 19" on each side, 24 channel center section, all connectors on d-sub25)
Does he has a page or are there pics anywhere to see online?

The AMEK is much easier to split though, as far as I know, because the bus system is more modern (ballanced and easy to scale up or down). But it would be interessting to look what and how he did..

Thx
Daniel
Old 5th February 2018
  #10
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cheu78's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by idee und klang View Post
I don't think to sell it at the moment. I guess it could also be an advantage with a DAW Centersection, but who knows. Large CADAC G Series desk are not easy to sell - the Pye CADAC could not be sold for a long time. The Reason is simple, those CADACS are really large, but don't have as many channals as i.e. SSL or Neve that are as large. Also the CADAC's are made for pure quality in sound but lack functions. So there are interessting for Studios owned by a Soundengineer that is the main and only worker in the Studio. But mostly such studios are too little to house a big CADAC. Big Studios normally are based so that multiple engineers can come, but then you need a more modern console with more functions.

I actually think that the SLED System would be best. I agree that to construct a good looking and stable joint system would be more than difficult:-)

Daniel
The sled system is probably also a very good idea.. although you need to think about the cabling (when moving the sled)..



Cheu
Old 5th February 2018
  #11
This is what I did - but it's designed to be able to be easily removed (and it does obscure the main faders - not a problem for me because I NEVER sum through the desk - but would be for you perhaps!).
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Split a Analog Console in two parts for DAW Centersection-img_1780.jpg  
Old 5th February 2018
  #12
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
This is what I did - but it's designed to be able to be easily removed (and it does obscure the main faders - not a problem for me because I NEVER sum through the desk - but would be for you perhaps!).
Hey, but that is a really nice construction - thanks for that idea!
In my case it could be made in the way that it has wheels (or rollers) on where it stands at the floor and a sled-system where it ends behind the console. That way it could be whereever I wanted it infront of the console and I could easily move it left and right.

The only question is, how would it look with the bigger S3 / Avid Dock. But one solution would be to make it wider (not deeper) and have the USB Keyboard and Trackball within the S3 and Dock.

Do you have problems when working on the faders of the Artist because they are higher than they would be on a normal table? Or is the ergonomic just fine?

Thanks for this input, very much appreciated!

d.
Old 6th February 2018
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by idee und klang View Post
Hey, but that is a really nice construction - thanks for that idea!
In my case it could be made in the way that it has wheels (or rollers) on where it stands at the floor and a sled-system where it ends behind the console. That way it could be whereever I wanted it infront of the console and I could easily move it left and right.

The only question is, how would it look with the bigger S3 / Avid Dock. But one solution would be to make it wider (not deeper) and have the USB Keyboard and Trackball within the S3 and Dock.

Do you have problems when working on the faders of the Artist because they are higher than they would be on a normal table? Or is the ergonomic just fine?

Thanks for this input, very much appreciated!

d.
No worries!

Yes mine does move but it’s not on wheels - you’d definitely want lockable wheels if that was the case!

I don’t have a problem with the height of faders - I’ve got the legs on the avid surfaces, and the rake is fine. I don’t use the surface exclusively or anything, but I often use it for balance and some automation - and I lock vcas so I can have things always available to trim or solo - it works the best of any solution I can find.

And if we have external producers in, it’s a great laptop table too!
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