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I'm running an A/B/Y/etc. test for pro cable RE: Belden, Canare, Mogami, Zaolla, etc. Saturation Plugins
Old 2 weeks ago
  #31
Check out KimberKable and DH Labs, they make great sounding stuff.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #32
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Old 2 weeks ago
  #33
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Another thing you might think about, although I know these tests get too complicated too quickly...

The question is, are you testing cable or capacitance? It would be really interesting to see how each manufacturer's AES-spec cable performs, as they all have to have the same per-length capacitance. Otherwise, you're simply looking at how each cable performs as a tone control.

And, as bassmankr and others have pointed out (sorry) you should be running lengths approximating a console to patch bay to interface stretch.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoom25 View Post
Vovox
it should have used more friendly words (sorry, haven't got an espresso yet! so i'll go back to my old post and adjust)


vovox cables ARE made different than most any other cables
using vovox cables CAN make a difference in what you hear
you MAY like the sound you'll get when using vovox cables


living in switzerland, i know the guys and have met them several times: very knowledgable, friendly, humble - even if you're not gonna buy any of their products, they are always nice to talk; get in touch with them!

i got a chance of testing a bunch of cables early on (not even sure whether they were using the name of vovox back then) and i'm sure they kept on developing things throughout the years; i do own and use some of their cables (old and new)!

my main critique comes more from an analogy: let's say you'll get a chance to hear a musician play some beautiful music in a nice concert hall; s/he'll first play something on the cello with a sound that you would describe as 'warm, open, full'.
on the second run, s/he'd play the same (as far as this is possible at all, so: in almost the same manner) and use a cello that sounds as beautiful as the first one, yet slightly darker...

based on my experience (i was involved into the development/creation/manufacturing of musical instruments for some years), i assume that you most likely will end up liking the first performance better - why? well, that goes a looong way... (maybe to be discussed in another thread - hint: it's easy to get blinded by the light)

my point is that their claim 'more information is better' in itself is based on a concept/idea/thinking that i do not relate to - so (besides the technical aspects) the discussion is about words, their meaning, our understanding, weighting, interpretation, experience, taste - all things very hard to 'judge'! (i seem to hear things in a different way than many others)


finally back to topic: check them out and find out for yourself what you'll get (or loose)! you may not get instant gratification, yet their is hope - a very powerful dope! (amen)

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 2 weeks ago at 01:55 PM.. Reason: added someting
Old 2 weeks ago
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman View Post
...This actually isn't about measured deficiencies in long runs. It's about comparing tonal qualities and stereo imaging. What I'm looking for is a "sound", if you get me John.
If a cable has a Sound, and another cable has a Different Sound, you will be able to measure the differential in subtractive testing. Since cable properties of resistance, capacitance and inductance are linearly related to cable length, you will find differentials most demonstrable in long cable lengths. Listing to differences in 12" long interconnects will lead you no where, in my view.

John Caldwell
Old 2 weeks ago
  #36
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IMO using an arbitrary waveform generator and comparing what enters one end of a cable to what comes out, if differences due to the cable can be heard, it's possible to quantitatively measure differences using lab test equipment. My point is that from a test & measurement POV it's possible to measure differences before those can be percieved by any human (of course using an appropriate test suite). Nothing is said about how to interpret such marginal differences (i.e. how they will affect the way the difference is subjectively perceived),
Old 2 weeks ago
  #37
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bowzin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
my point is that their claim 'more information is better' in itself is based on a concept/idea/thinking that i do not relate to

Interesting post, and it reminds me of a discussion James Cameron was having about 3D movies and why he is so on board with the concept.

Basically he was boiling it down to a similar argument: 3D movies are literally taking more brain power to process, and tickling more of the brain, and therefore all things being equal a 3D movie is more engaging because there is more information the brain is processing, even if the average viewer isn't aware of any of these concepts.

Not sure I automatically agree because I’m typically not thrilled with the 3D movie experience, but I'm sympathetic to the argument in general.

Andrew Scheps uses a similar concept to explain lossy files like mp3's and how it’s tricky to say how good is good enough:

I don't know if he came up with the analogy, but he says artists are pouring their friggin heart and soul into this music, and they want to make music that makes their mom cry. If the mom listens to a 1411kbps .wav file copy she cries. If she listens to a 320kbps vbr mp3, she probably still cries let’s get real. If she listens to a 160kbps mp3 she probably cries… but somewhere down the chain, lossier and lossier, the mom doesn’t cry! No one can really say where it is that mom doesn’t cry, but it is getting worse and worse because the information is getting lost and/or re-ordered or re-configured.

Not really a point here, just thought it was interesting, sorry for the OT rant.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #38
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the degradation in quality makes me want to cry
Old 2 weeks ago
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowzin View Post
...any of these concepts...
thx
Old 2 weeks ago
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowzin View Post
Andrew Scheps uses a similar concept to explain lossy files like mp3's and how it’s tricky to say how good is good enough:

I don't know if he came up with the analogy, but he says artists are pouring their friggin heart and soul into this music, and they want to make music that makes their mom cry. If the mom listens to a 1411kbps .wav file copy she cries. If she listens to a 320kbps vbr mp3, she probably still cries let’s get real. If she listens to a 160kbps mp3 she probably cries… but somewhere down the chain, lossier and lossier, the mom doesn’t cry! No one can really say where it is that mom doesn’t cry, but it is getting worse and worse because the information is getting lost and/or re-ordered or re-configured...
This is artfully expressed, and serves as metaphor for lots of things.

John Caldwell
Old 2 weeks ago
  #41
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You owe it to yourself to include this cable:

Gotham Audio LLC ~ The exclusive American and Canadian importer for Gotham Audio Cables
10561 GAC-2 UltraPro Multistage Reussen Shielded balanced microphone and interconnect cable for studio and remote
http://www.gothamaudiousa.com/productdata/10561.pdf

The starquad version also, but less practical in use. They sound identical to me.
I use both for line level balanced connection and microphone cable.

They beat everything I have owned by a considerable margin (included - dare I say it - solid core silver wire).

Not expensive, around 7 euro/m in the EU.

Before I am ridiculised because I am writing about cable & sound, I would like to point out there is no cable that is BETTER shielded than this.

I use the starquad for stereo runs for my SF12, and MKH800twin mics.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
You owe it to yourself to include this cable:

Gotham Audio LLC ~ The exclusive American and Canadian importer for Gotham Audio Cables
10561 GAC-2 UltraPro Multistage Reussen Shielded balanced microphone and interconnect cable for studio and remote
http://www.gothamaudiousa.com/productdata/10561.pdf

The starquad version also, but less practical in use. They sound identical to me.
I use both for line level balanced connection and microphone cable.

They beat everything I have owned by a considerable margin (included - dare I say it - solid core silver wire).

Not expensive, around 7 euro/m in the EU.

Before I am ridiculised because I am writing about cable & sound, I would like to point out there is no cable that is BETTER shielded than this.

I use the starquad for stereo runs for my SF12, and MKH800twin mics.
Love that cable. Easy to handle as well.

Any opinion on long term durability? I'm at 6 years on mine and no problems here, I did add a short length of shrink at both ends as it's a bit skinny.

G
Old 2 weeks ago
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectacular g View Post
Love that cable. Easy to handle as well.

Any opinion on long term durability? I'm at 6 years on mine and no problems here, I did add a short length of shrink at both ends as it's a bit skinny.

G
That's another one you have ? The pro is only 2 years available, hard to handle and 8mm, not skinny at all.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
... It's also important that BOTH the male and female connectors in the connection are gold plated or you will have corrosion from disimilar metals (the reason you spent extra for gold was to avoid corrosion).
Not true -- gold doesn't react with anything, and nothing reacts with gold. Almost redundant, but just barely not. :-)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #45
m03
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Old 2 weeks ago
  #46
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I'm sorry for your wallet, but I have to recommend Vovox as well. In my practice (microphone and line level cabling) it goes like this: first I try to use Vovox unshielded. If there appears to be any RF problem (hardly ever) I switch to Vovox shielded. If I run out of unshielded Vovox I use up Vovox shielded. And when I run out of Vovox entirely, I use Grimm TPR (TPM is supposed to be for audiophiles, BTW). TPR is a very solid studio cable that will be perfectly fine for most critical professional users, while Vovox is for über-critical professional users.

In case I ever need quad cabling (I recommend against quad cabling in general for reasons also mentioned by others: a congested sound) I use Van den Hul The Integration Hybrid or Sommer SC-Epilogue. For AES signal transport I have found no better cable so far than Sommer Carbokab.

Don't think all the above names are the only ones I have tested, as I have boxes full of never again used others that lost the battle.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #47
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Old 2 weeks ago
  #48
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Metals are ranked from "less noble" to "noble" with gold being the second most noble behind platinum. The most noble metal corrodes the less noble metal when they are in contact so unless gold is in contact with platinum its going to stay the same and corrosion takes place on the other metal. As for studio connectors, any corrosion when it builds up will interfere or prohibit signal or ground. Here is a chart if you want to learn more about the subject. Link: Galvanic Corrosion – Penn Engineering
Old 2 weeks ago
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
I'm sorry for your wallet, but I have to recommend Vovox as well. In my practice (microphone and line level cabling) it goes like this: first I try to use Vovox unshielded. If there appears to be any RF problem (hardly ever) I switch to Vovox shielded. If I run out of unshielded Vovox I use up Vovox shielded. And when I run out of Vovox entirely, I use Grimm TPR (TPM is supposed to be for audiophiles, BTW). TPR is a very solid studio cable that will be perfectly fine for most critical professional users, while Vovox is for über-critical professional users.

In case I ever need quad cabling (I recommend against quad cabling in general for reasons also mentioned by others: a congested sound) I use Van den Hul The Integration Hybrid or Sommer SC-Epilogue. For AES signal transport I have found no better cable so far than Sommer Carbokab.

Don't think all the above names are the only ones I have tested, as I have boxes full of never again used others that lost the battle.
For digital AES use, have you tried the Mogami Gold AES (3173) or the Vovox AES?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
Metals are ranked from "less noble" to "noble" with gold being the second most noble behind platinum. The most noble metal corrodes the less noble metal when they are in contact so unless gold is in contact with platinum its going to stay the same and corrosion takes place on the other metal. As for studio connectors, any corrosion when it builds up will interfere or prohibit signal or ground. Here is a chart if you want to learn more about the subject. Link: Galvanic Corrosion – Penn Engineering
Galvanic corrosion requires humidity. In dry conditions galvanic corrosion is not an issue.

In industrial environments galvanic corrosion is a very important point, especially also for equipotential design. For example in wastewater treatment plants an design error can lead to metal parts destroyed within a few weeks. There are whole books about corrosion protection, see also cathodic protection.

But for equipment which is dry or mostly always dry it's not that critical. Thermocouple effects for metal pairs can lead to problems but I've never checked for audio. It's mostly an issue when using instrumentation thermocouples.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #51
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I am curious about this Vovox unshielded. It seems like a very bad idea in our modern surroundings, more so with IC input stages with poor CMRR.

I could be wrong of course.

The Gotham individual shielded cables are not only the best shielded cables available, IMO they sound as natural as anything I have tried. When you first try them they seem closed in, but that is just the glaring absence of HF rubbish, resonances, noise. They sound in fact much more open than even my silver cables (which add a tiny little "pleasant" vibrance in the higher frequencies).

It would be nice to have the completely shielded Gothams side by side to the unshielded Vovox cables in this test

I also tried the Sommer carbocab as mic cable and interconnect. I never re-used or finished the reel I bought. Maybe as an AES cable they are OK, but for the rest ... You just gave me an idea to use the 80m I still have !

Edit:
Gotham AG - Gotham Cables - 10561 GAC-2 Ultra Pro - powered by Contrexx
Gotham AG - Gotham Cables - 11301 - powered by Contrexx

these are the ones I mean, they are 5x shielded.
the gac2ultrapro are AES compliant as well.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #52
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I think it's interesting that, in other threads in other forums, we have folks talking about the various sound-mangling traits of saturator X and pretend-tape Y and black-box Z... and here we have this. Room for everyone.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I think it's interesting that, in other threads in other forums, we have folks talking about the various sound-mangling traits of saturator X and pretend-tape Y and black-box Z... and here we have this. Room for everyone.
It would be a nice excersize for anyone in the industry to make a complete clean recording, with a clean mix & mastering, just to see what happens.

No more pop vocals that sound like a sizzling frying pan !
Old 2 weeks ago
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
No more pop vocals that sound like a sizzling frying pan !
Actually, one pop vocal that doesn't.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #55
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Schoeller, you are correct about the amount of humidity being a factor. In dry studios it just takes longer. Where we typically see corrosion buildup is with desks and patchbays (anything where connections are left for long periods of time). Cleaning those connections every so often, just like exercising pots is just good studio practice. The main point readers should take away is that if they are spending extra for gold connectors, use them for long term undisturbed connections with BOTH male and female connectors being gold, otherwise it's not worth the added expense. Even in modern gear with similar metal connection points you see failures in molex and ribbon cable connectors due to metal patina.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #56
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About exercising pots there are large differences. I recently noticed that some pots used by Moog seem to become sticky quite quickly, i.e. when you move them some additional break-away torque you can feel well is required (but it's not remanent, the "hard" point can't be felt once the button has been turned) while other pots don't show that behaviour. During some time in the late 80's I used a rackmount compressor/limiter/noise gate and none of its nicely smooth pots ever became "sticky".

Indeed connectors are one of the most common causes of failures in the (non-audio) industry. I've designed, commissionned (including programming of PLC and process control/SCADA) and also maintained automation and control systems in various industrial domains and connectors have always been a traditional source of problems. Mostly because the wrong connectors had been used (and/or due to installation mistakes). Everyone fears a 10'000 bucks PLC CPU failing but indeed such modules rarely fail, most common are connectors and field-installed sensors, limit switches, pushbuttons, moving cables,... Most failures could be avoided if designing correctly and using very good parts.

Many connectors are only designed for a limited number of mating cycles though conditions of use play an important role. Often a higher number of mating cycles is possible with quality connectors. Overall typically you get what you pay for. Especially surface treatments requires a lot of care and quality can only be assessed in the lab. Therefore tight manufacturing control is extremely important as visually you can't see much and special equipment is required to check the plating thickness and that doesn't tell anything about the preparation of the parts before being plated as that one is absolutely decisive.
Old 1 week ago
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schoeller View Post
Indeed connectors are one of the most common causes of failures in the (non-audio) industry.
Audio-world as well. In my experience dodgy cables are the culprit over 90% of the time. It's amazingly consistent. As you said, in most of those cases something else is blamed first, usually the most expensive, panic-inducing thing is blamed first. When it's always the cheap jack on a cheap cable that's crapping out.

The second cause of problems is simply scratchy pots. Easy fix, but again shocking how few people know how to "work out" a pot... it's like a magic trick.

The third cause of problems is... a gain-staging issue and there isn't a mechanical problem at all.

The fourth is cheap capacitors failing in the power supply section of gear. If you knocked those four out... you'd eliminate 999 out of a 1000 problems! I can't even remember the last intractable problem I had that wasn't one of those issues... maybe computer drivers.
Old 1 week ago
  #58
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Nothing is better than the weakest link, so what cabling is in a SSL patch?

this cabling insanity must stop

Last edited by Showcase; 1 week ago at 06:47 AM..
Old 1 week ago
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Showcase View Post
Nothing is better than the weakest link, so what cabling is in a SSL patch?

this cabling insanity must stop
You're so right.

The oxygen-amounts-in-copper discussion is lurking.

Ever seen how audio buses are wired?

And BTW, the best sounding cable (well, does a cable really sound?) is useless if it's too fragile for the intended use. It's also about the whole cable assembly, statistically speaking, connectors belong to the least reliable electrical parts.
Old 1 week ago
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schoeller View Post
You're so right.

The oxygen-amounts-in-copper discussion is lurking.

Ever seen how audio buses are wired?

And BTW, the best sounding cable (well, does a cable really sound?) is useless if it's too fragile for the intended use. It's also about the whole cable assembly, statistically speaking, connectors belong to the least reliable electrical parts.
Yes, discussing cables without regard to connectors is a bit strange, isn’t it, because connectors are important parts of «the cable»...
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