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Trident 80b EQ, transparancy Consoles
Old 19th January 2018
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanEldred View Post
Alan Hyatt said $850 street. That’s a good deal IMHO. Looking fwd to having them.
Cheaper than I expected, given the price of their rack-mount A-Range stuff.
Old 19th January 2018
  #32
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jjblair's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by u87allen View Post
Cheaper than I expected, given the price of their rack-mount A-Range stuff.
But those are stereo and have mic pres, so maybe it's in line?
Old 10th February 2018
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
But those are stereo and have mic pres, so maybe it's in line?
Yes, my math needs some improvement. $3K/4(2 mic pre's plus 2 eq's) is $750. So roughly in line.

I have no personal experience with the A-range stuff, or the 80b stuff for that matter. But I wonder how they compare. Why do people say the A-range stuff was so great? Is it cleaner, more mojo, some famous album(s) recorded with it that kind of set a standard for what stuff should sound like?
Old 10th February 2018
  #34
Gear Maniac
i always loved tracking on trident 80 desks. they sound like rock and roll to me. definitely not transparent.

i also love the A range, but that is a much different sound.

i've got a bunch of daking's original vertical modules. they do for sure have a A range vibe, but they are also different.

a few times i compared them to the channels on the A range up at smart studios. they definitely were in the same "family" but different.

the A range bottom end was much bigger and deeper, and could be pushed and never really sound muddy.

the dakings have always been my favorite preamp, i think i'm just used to what i get with them. the eq always works and sounds great.

i have often thought it would be cool to have 8ch of trident 80 eqs for tracking. they always sounded right to me on drums and especially guitars.

have zero experience with any of the modern offerings in the A range or 80 series.
Old 10th February 2018
  #35
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by u87allen View Post
I've read a lot about these EQ's but have yet to hear one. Seems well established that a lot of people like them and describe them as very musical and useable.

I like all that but I'm kind of a stickler for transparency. I don't need lightning-fast transients and amazing detail. But if something seems to noticeably dull the sound after being inserted into the signal chain I find it to be generally unusable, at least for things like vocals and lead guitar.

So I'm wondering if anyone who's heard these can comment on their transparency. Or at the very least, comment on the circuitry. Are there cheap op amps and a lot of electrolytic coupling caps to dull up the sound?

I love the affordability of these as I'm looking at getting a 500 rack and filling it up with these babies.

Thanks in advance.
I have a Trident Series 80 (pre B) console. The eqs are beautiful, but like any eq it does some things better than others. The 12k shelf is really nice, and the 8.5k isn't quite as nice generally, but is a useful tool to have for things like shaker tracks for example. It's slightly grainier than the silkier 12k shelf.

The midrange eqs are very nice, particularly in more subtle doses. They don't push well like some other consoles, but it doesn't sound like it's a concern for you.

I find the selectable high-pass and selectable low-shelf to be very useful and musical - individually and in conjunction with one another.

That's my take on it. Of course the clones and Toft stuff is slightly different, with some different shelf and high-pass points. I don't really know how similar they'd be sonically, but I seem to remember liking how the toft eqs sound.

The caveat is that if you find you're using eq continually in the same ways, you might want to invest in different mics (or in some cases pres or comps). I use little to no eq on many records. "EQing" with mics, mic placement, and to some extent pre choice and "tone box" comps (and the like) is the most transparent and natural way that I've found to get the sound your after.

I hope that helps! Let us know how what you decide on
Old 10th February 2018
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernieesquire View Post
I have a Trident Series 80 (pre B) console. The eqs are beautiful, but like any eq it does some things better than others. The 12k shelf is really nice, and the 8.5k isn't quite as nice generally, but is a useful tool to have for things like shaker tracks for example. It's slightly grainier than the silkier 12k shelf.

The midrange eqs are very nice, particularly in more subtle doses. They don't push well like some other consoles, but it doesn't sound like it's a concern for you.

I find the selectable high-pass and selectable low-shelf to be very useful and musical - individually and in conjunction with one another.

That's my take on it. Of course the clones and Toft stuff is slightly different, with some different shelf and high-pass points. I don't really know how similar they'd be sonically, but I seem to remember liking how the toft eqs sound.

The caveat is that if you find you're using eq continually in the same ways, you might want to invest in different mics (or in some cases pres or comps). I use little to no eq on many records. "EQing" with mics, mic placement, and to some extent pre choice and "tone box" comps (and the like) is the most transparent and natural way that I've found to get the sound your after.

I hope that helps! Let us know how what you decide on
Thanks for the feedback. And thanks again to all for all the feedback. I'm starting to form a picture in my head with these being the sort of SM57 of EQ's; something every studio should have if they're doing any rock and roll recording, but there are other tools that are more expensive that have better clarity, bottom end, etc. But sometimes, even though you have a mic locker that includes $7K LDC's, an SM57 is the right sound, especially if one's recording rock and roll, which I do sometimes.

So, that being said, I think it's worth it to get a pair in my lunchbox. However, I don't think it's a sound I want on every channel of my mixer. I'm thinking SSL is more in line with what I'm looking for. But at a grand a channel, sheesh, I'm gonna go broke if I want 8 or 10 channels. I think I can build something for about a fifth of that price that will give me the transparency and usability I want. So I'm actively doing some research(studying circuit topologies, getting some of the famous audio op amps in my lab and trying them out) now to see what I can come up with.

Does anyone know of a source for empty 500 series module boxes?
Old 10th February 2018
  #37
Lives for gear
That being said I see your point about less eq-ing. Now that I don't have any eq's I pay more attention to how I'm micing things(do I want it to sound fatter or thinner by moving the mic closer or further away), using the mic rolloff switch etc. Also, I noticed how high quality summing makes a difference. When I had my Mackie 1604, I had to do a LOT of eq-ing to keep the mix from sounding muddy. Now that I have a high-end summing box I barely have to think about this. Mix 5 fat vocal tracks together and they still sound OK.
Old 10th February 2018
  #38
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BradM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by u87allen View Post
So, that being said, I think it's worth it to get a pair in my lunchbox. However, I don't think it's a sound I want on every channel of my mixer. I'm thinking SSL is more in line with what I'm looking for. But at a grand a channel, sheesh, I'm gonna go broke if I want 8 or 10 channels. I think I can build something for about a fifth of that price that will give me the transparency and usability I want. So I'm actively doing some research(studying circuit topologies, getting some of the famous audio op amps in my lab and trying them out) now to see what I can come up with.
If you are seeking an EQ with a transparent sonic footprint and an audiophile approach to design you should take a look at the Kush Audio Electra. The input stage can be AC or DC coupled via an onboard jumper, which will put a total of zero electrolytics in the signal path if that jumper is set to "DC couple". All the IC op amps are LME49720/LME49860. The caps in the filter circuits are polypropylene film caps (Wima MKP and FKP types). The transient response is exceptional due to the choice of IC's and lack of electrolytic coupling caps, and the large 470 uF decoupling caps on the power rails. It's a proportional-Q design, which means that as you boost or cut more the Q increases. If you have specific questions about the design I'd be happy to answer them.

I think even Jim Williams would give a thumbs up on this design (thanks for all the high fidelity circuit inspiration over the years, Jim!).

Brad
Old 10th February 2018
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradM View Post
If you are seeking an EQ with a transparent sonic footprint and an audiophile approach to design you should take a look at the Kush Audio Electra. The input stage can be AC or DC coupled via an onboard jumper, which will put a total of zero electrolytics in the signal path if that jumper is set to "DC couple". All the IC op amps are LME49720/LME49860. The caps in the filter circuits are polypropylene film caps (Wima MKP and FKP types). The transient response is exceptional due to the choice of IC's and lack of electrolytic coupling caps, and the large 470 uF decoupling caps on the power rails. It's a proportional-Q design, which means that as you boost or cut more the Q increases. If you have specific questions about the design I'd be happy to answer them.

I think even Jim Williams would give a thumbs up on this design (thanks for all the high fidelity circuit inspiration over the years, Jim!).

Brad
Very interesting. I like the design philosophy(LME49720 is one amp I bought to try out, along with LT1028 and OPA124. And the 'no electrolytics in the signal path' thing.) and the price. One poster before you also mentioned these. Perhaps I should give them a look.
Old 4th March 2018
  #40
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I've heard of people re-chipping 80 series desks, then going back to the TLO71's after hearing the "upgrade"

I'll offer my little bit of experience with some DIY 80 series eq's. Search groupdiy for "S800" and you'll find the project.

Maybe I'm crazy, but when I tried

1. Wima polyesters instead of the blue and yellow metalized film caps, I went back to the blue and yellow caps. This was a/bing one channel with another. So a bit more conclusive that just trying before and after. The blue and yellows to my ear seemed to allow the different freq. bands to blend with each other better. A subtle difference and I assume some people would prefer the opposite.

2. Chip upgrades were returned to TLO71. I can't remember what chips I tried. OPA something. Whatever it was was more expensive, better specs, but the TLO71's sounded better to me. Warmer, more musical.

This was yet another situation where I found that "upgrading" something was in fact a downgrade in my opinion. This has happened enough, that now I am very wary of immediately questioning the design and component choices of most functional gear, and WAY more wary in regards to gear deemed classic, such as the Trident 80 series desks. Forget the specs. These things have a sound.

Which leads me to my question!

What ARE those metallized film box caps that are in the 80 series desks? The reason I ask is I have two versions (8 ch's total) of the above mentioned kit, and I'd like all of them to have the 'blue and yellow' metallized film caps in there, and NOT wimas. The kits are from Audio Maintenance Limited and they're not getting back to me about this question. Anyway, I've heard they're dubilier, but not sure which series. Not sure whether they're the same as 80 series Trident either, but it's a start. They do look a LOT like the caps in Soundcraft Ghost consoles.

Jim, you must know, for having replaced them all these years!
Old 4th March 2018
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonk View Post
2. Chip upgrades were returned to TLO71. I can't remember what chips I tried. OPA something. Whatever it was was more expensive, better specs, but the TLO71's sounded better to me. Warmer, more musical.

!
If you tried OPA124, I wasn't a huge fan of those either, even though many rave about them. I liked LME49720 and LT1028 better, the latter being the most neutral(probably too much for some people's tastses) and the former being a bit more "juicy" sounding.

But I see what you're saying about things having a "sound". JJ said they were the "sound of rock and roll". And I see what he means. It sounds like the rock and roll we've heard on so many songs. And this is typically what people are looking for. They want things to sound like the songs and records they're familiar with or like.

The summing box I own(Heritage Audio) seems to get me a nice rock sound effortlessly. But try to do classical acoustic guitar on it and hear those transformers sizzle.
Old 8th March 2018
  #42
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So, What ARE those metallized film box caps that are in the 80 series desks?
Old 9th March 2018
  #43
Plessy made a lot of the white poly box caps in the 7.5 mm spacing. At least back in the 1970/80's. Wima was mostly found in German and Swiss gear, not much of the British stuff.
Old 9th March 2018
  #44
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Silvertone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
Nothing transparent about series 80 EQs, which is why they are one of the best ever electric guitar EQs. Lots of phase shift. Extremely musical, and just the sound of rock and roll, period.
Having owned this console myself, JJ is spot on in his description.

Only worse EQ ( as far as phase shift and musicality) would be the ones found on Neve 10XX modules. lol
Old 9th March 2018
  #45
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Silvertone's Avatar
Oh yeah and I owned a Neve console full of those as well. Ha ha

I like the old Q8 MM series EQ’s myself, musical, detailed and pretty damn transparent.
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