The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
I'm back
Old 30th October 2002
  #31
Lives for gear
 
Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by mwagener


The high pass filter on the Vipre is on and I don't want to take out more low end because it affects the vocal sound, all the throaty growl gets lost. Tell me about the royer pop filter.

Maybe it's because I'm listening with a sub for the surround sound, it might intensify the pops. But then again, the listener at home will be listening with a sub as well. It's actually down to about 4 - 5 pops a song and I can automate the EQ in the board to get rid of those during mixing.
Or you could use a fast compressor keyed to the pop freq. to duck out only the pops.
I once had had to mix a tape that had LOTS of stand up bass string clicks/buzzes, actually sounded like pre-amp clipping. Once I keyed in the compressor (a fast compressor!) on those clicks, I was able to duck out and in with minimal harm to the bass track. In fact, once the bass was put back into the mix, you would hardly know there was any problem. There were probably at least 35 of these clicks per song and it only took about 15 mins to set up the compressor to eliminate them.

mwagener: In your drum pics, what headphone foldback mixer are you using??

Fleaman
Old 30th October 2002
  #32
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Fleaman
mwagener: In your drum pics, what headphone foldback mixer are you using??

Fleaman
forgot the name, I'll check it out tomorrow. It's a six channel headphone mixer with a stereo bus and 4 mono buses.
Old 30th October 2002
  #33
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
. . . on to electric guitars.

After checking a bunch of different mics for the guitars these are the finalist in that category:




for the first heavy tracks I used just the R-121 into the EMI mic pre and then, in true gearslutz fashion, into the Spider line in (Tape knob on 2 'o clock) out of the Spider digital into the R-1. That track was mono guitar signal only, tomorrow Fritz is going to get in there for the rear speakers.
Old 30th October 2002
  #34
Lives for gear
 
Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by mwagener


forgot the name, I'll check it out tomorrow. It's a six channel headphone mixer with a stereo bus and 4 mono buses.
Hmm, sounds like a Q-Mix...

Fleaman
Old 30th October 2002
  #35
Lives for gear
 

On the "P" pop issues.

I find a crossfade into the offending "P" on a DAW does wonders. Once you get the final vocal comp, it just takes a few minutes for me to get them all.

Sounds totally natural when done right, IMO. And requires no sonic compromise in the cutting chain.


Brian T
Old 30th October 2002
  #36
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
On the "P" pop issues.

I find a crossfade into the offending "P" on a DAW does wonders. Once you get the final vocal comp, it just takes a few minutes for me to get them all.

Sounds totally natural when done right, IMO. And requires no sonic compromise in the cutting chain.


Brian T
That's basically what I'm doing during mixing with the automation on the Sony DMX console. Just for the splitsecond of the pop I switch on the high pass filter and set it to whatever frequency is high enough to get rid of the pop. That leaves the rest of the track intact. There are not that many pops left anyway, maybe 4 - 5 in one song. Right now we are working on the ballady songs, where he is closer to the mic to get a lot of throat, once we get to the "louder" stuff, he will be further away and it won't be an issue anymore.

Thanx for all the tips
Old 30th October 2002
  #37
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

why not just have him turn a tad off axis on P's? vocalists should KNOW how to work a mic.
Old 30th October 2002
  #38
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
why not just have him turn a tad off axis on P's? vocalists should KNOW how to work a mic.
The mic is sensitive enough that you can hear the change in the high end when he turns his head, especially on the songs where he has to be close.
Old 30th October 2002
  #39
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

im talking like 2degrees off, just enough to move the burst SLIGHTLY off axis... and ONLY for that minor split second. but that might be too much for the vocalist to think about while getting a performance.
Old 30th October 2002
  #40
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
2 degrees is not enough to take care of the problem, he had to move his head over about 45 degrees, and I really don't want him to have to think about that while he's singing. I rather deal with the few pops on my end and have him concentrate on his performance.
Old 30th October 2002
  #41
Lives for gear
 
Kris's Avatar
So who are the artists you are recording... what style of music is it?
Old 30th October 2002
  #42
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

i heard that lennon would waive his hand in front of his mouth to "wipe away" the [pop[s.
Old 30th October 2002
  #43
Lives for gear
 

That's a technique I've used for many years when recording with a bottom sensitive mic sound. But I didn't know Lennon did it. Cool.
Old 30th October 2002
  #44
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Great stuff, Michael. I'd love to try the E47 and E251...and Fritz...and the Soundfield mics. Heck, I'd love to try the AM62 on guitars and the '34 Slingerland snare.

Keep posting the pics.
Old 31st October 2002
  #45
"Just for the splitsecond of the pop I switch on the high pass filter and set it to whatever frequency is high enough to get rid of the pop."

I've done this 'live' on vinal disc cutting sessions in mastering!

Mastering engineer - "do you know where the pops are?'

Me - "Yup!" (shaking hand holding lyric sheet with highlighter pen marks)



Obviously it's better to catch pop's before mastering!

heh
Old 31st October 2002
  #46
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Fleaman


Hmm, sounds like a Q-Mix...

Fleaman
Yep, you're right: Q-mix - HM-6, from OZ-Audio, cool little box.
Old 31st October 2002
  #47
Lives for gear
 
groundcontrol's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by mwagener


Yep, you're right: Q-mix - HM-6, from OZ-Audio, cool little box.
It's pretty much the standard over here now for cue duties. Especially now that all the "pro" headphones are low impedance. In most cases you don't need more powerful power amps.
Old 1st June 2003
  #48
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Well, it's June 2003 and the project is finally done and mastered. For those who are interested in hearing it, I can send out 5 sets of pre release CDs (stereo mix and surround mix in DTS bitstream, no artwork) to the first 5 people who send me an email ([email protected]) for your honest opinion in exchange. The music is metal, for lack of a better description.
Old 1st June 2003
  #49
Hearty congrats!

How was mastering?

Did you do it yourself?

What gear did you use on it?

Did you have enough gear when it came to mixing?

What challenges did you have to overcome?
Old 1st June 2003
  #50
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Hearty congrats!
Thank you Jules, It's great when you can spend as much time as you want on a project.

Quote:
How was mastering?
Mastering was different this time because we had mixed to DSD for a SACD release. Eric Conn, my mastering guy here in Nashville, played the DSD files back from the Genex 8500 via Meitner D/A converters, the same machine we mixed to. Eric was using 3 Massive Passive EQs for the surround mixes but NO COMPRESSION AT ALL!!! From there the signal would go through another Meitner A/DSD into the Sony Sonoma system for editing and sequencing. The stereo mixes went from the Genex through one Massive Passive and a Manley Vari-Mu (2dB compression max) then through the L2 (1dB peak limiting) and then into the Sonoma via the Meitner. Overall the EQ never exceeded 1.5 dB cut or boost in any of the frequency bands, probably thanx to the ADAM S3As during mixing. Also, Eric uses a tube signal path in his mastering console that sounds great and glues things together quite nicely.

Once the eq'd files were in the Sonoma we went to the local Sony office and Tracy Martinson (Sony's local SACD guru) did the sequencing and edits for the final master. It's a little weird, that you can't take home the actual final product in DSD/SACD, you get a PCM version or in case of the surround mixes, a DTS encoded version

Quote:
Did you do it yourself?
Nope, I like to have a set of pro ears making sure I didn't mess up too bad. Since I recorded the entire album with absolutely no eq on any of the tracks, when mixing I send the surround mix through the Massenburg surround eq in the TC system 6000 with a shelving EQ of about 4.5 dB from 4 K up. That eliminated the need for EQ on each track and pulled things together. I also used the 5.1 Brickwall limiter in the 6000 to keep the peaks under control. Those two 5.1 programs take up a lot of processing power in the 6000, that's why I had to buy another 6000 so I still had the 6000 surround reverbs for the mix (well, at least that's my excuse...).

Quote:
What gear did you use on it?
We talked about the recording process already. For the mix I use a couple of Sony DMX R-100 in cascade. Most tracks were recorded directly to the Euphonix R-1. I also had some tracks on the Tascam MX2424, mostly soundeffects. The two machines locked beautifully. So we ended up with about 76 tracks on some of the songs. When you record in surround a lot of tracks go for the room mics and, as in our case, the Soundfield system. Some of the main outboard gear used during the surround mix included: the Kurzweil KSP8, Eventide DSP 4000, of course the M6000, Distressors, FATSO, Massive Passive, 1176, dBX160VU, TC D-Two, Fireworx, M2000, Lexicon Prime Time II, Yamaha D-1500, Marshall Time Modulator and the Yamaha SPX900. I left the drums in the surround mix pretty much alone, because there is all that space (speaker wise) to put them in. I added distortion from a KSP8 program to some of the tom tracks to give them a little of that trash can sound.

On the stereo mix I used the CraneSong Spider to do a submix of Kick, Snare, Toms and one far room mic, which was then sent to the Chandler EMI TG1 for max compression (love that thing) and mixed in with the drums. And of course, my favorite: the CraneSong HEDD was on the whole mix with the tape knob pretty crancked. I also used the Massive Passive on the stereo mix rather than the Massenburg in the TC. The Massenburg sounds absolutely great, but somehow the combination of the MP hooked up to the analog I/O of the HEDD kicked ass in this case.

As mentioned before, the surround mix (as well as the stereo mix) was mixed to the Genex 8500 via the Meitner converters plus to the Tascam DA98HR in PCM 24/48. I've been closely listening to the two different formats every day for about two month and the DSD wins that contest hands down. The Alesis Masterlink was used for stereo safety mixes in 24/48 and one-offs for checking at home etc.

Quote:
Did you have enough gear when it came to mixing?
Are you kidding?heh heh heh OF COURSE NOT!!! A Gearslut never has enough gear for anything...
Actually, I think I'm doing fine for the moment
Quote:
What challenges did you have to overcome?
Well, since the project was recorded in surround from the ground up, we were also only monitoring in surround during the whole recording process. So if there was a hole in the overall picture, let's say in the rear right, we would put something there to fill that hole. That came to haunt me during the stereo mix. I had to drop some of the stuff we had done for the surround version in the stereo mix because it just wouldn't fit into two speakers. Should have listened in stereo once in a while, even though we would take home dailys, at the time I didn't take those very serious in terms of placement, live and learn.
Old 1st June 2003
  #51
Lives for gear
 
Steve Smith's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by mwagener
Are you kidding?heh heh heh OF COURSE NOT!!! A Gearslut never has enough gear for anything...
Actually, I think I'm doing fine for the moment
Having seen your place during the stereo mixes, I can vouch for this!

I am totally amped to hear the final product when it is released, it sounded huge on the ADAM rig, great playing , cool songs and the guy can sing! Very refreshing to hear heavy music with a real set of pipes up front again.

Thanks for the update
Old 2nd June 2003
  #52
What a great report!



Thanks!
Old 2nd June 2003
  #53
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Smith
...it sounded huge on the ADAM rig,
I got to hear a little bit in surround. It was absolutely huge and amazing even from where I stood OUTSIDE the perimeter of the speakers!

I've always suspected the ONLY way anybody would ever really buy into surround would be from listening to music that was produced in surround rather than just being remixed in surround. This album makes a splendid example of that principle, it's a real sonic treat!
Old 2nd June 2003
  #54
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

i have the two CD's sent from michael and now he is making me upgrade my home theater with DTS decoding/preamp/amps so i can hear the surround version... well, thats MY excuse. little does my wife know that im getting a HIGH end replacement for my little prologic receiver... woo hoo. im looking foward to it.
Old 2nd June 2003
  #55
Lives for gear
 

I've heard it on my S3A 5.1 surround system twice now, the way it was meant to be heard, and I'm blown away. The singer and the band are great, as mentioned before. The surround mix is among the most creative I've heard for this kind of music. I LOVE how the drums sound, like you're right in the room with them. And Michael, you've got the whole placement thing SO down! vocals and things coming at you from different places in the 3-D field...very obvious the whole thing was created for surround, but the stereo version doesn't dissappoint. It stands on it's own nicely. Way to go Michael!

Oh, did I mention the guitars? Gawd! Are those the ENGL amps? I gotta find one of those...
Old 2nd June 2003
  #56
That Soundfield sounds frickin incredible...we got some mess-around tracks with alphajerk slammin on the kit with just the Soundfield on overheads. Wide cardiod won out over figure of 8 BTW.
Old 2nd June 2003
  #57
Jax
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by mwagener

Some of the main outboard gear used during the surround mix included: the Kurzweil KSP8, Eventide DSP 4000, of course the M6000, Distressors, FATSO, Massive Passive, 1176, dBX160VU, TC D-Two, Fireworx, M2000, Lexicon Prime Time II, Yamaha D-1500, Marshall Time Modulator and the Yamaha SPX900. I left the drums in the surround mix pretty much alone, because there is all that space (speaker wise) to put them in. I added distortion from a KSP8 program to some of the tom tracks to give them a little of that trash can sound.
Hey Michael, I'm hoping I can call in a favor since I doubt I'd be one of the first 5 emailers. I've been wanting to hear that Marshall Time Modulator, the one that I helped you get , but way beyond that, the project would probably be a treat to listen to. I haven't heard any good metal in ahwile.

If it's not too much trouble, let me know and I'll pm you my address.
Old 3rd June 2003
  #58
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

I hope you're sending one to Jules so I can go and hear it on his Adams.

Perhaps with a bit of persuasion he could also get the surround going. heh
Old 3rd June 2003
  #59
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by BevvyB
I hope you're sending one to Jules so I can go and hear it on his Adams.

Perhaps with a bit of persuasion he could also get the surround going. heh
But of course, he should have it by now, go bug him heh
Old 3rd June 2003
  #60
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by mwagener
Well, it's June 2003 and the project is finally done and mastered. For those who are interested in hearing it, I can send out 5 sets of pre release CDs (stereo mix and surround mix in DTS bitstream, no artwork) to the first 5 people who send me an email ([email protected]) for your honest opinion in exchange. The music is metal, for lack of a better description.
Sorry, they're gone for now. Didn't expect so many requests coming in. I'll do another run next week. Thanx for the interest in the project.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump