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Same pre for everything?
Old 29th December 2017
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drpeacock View Post
...I learned in kindergarten that when I point my finger at someone else there are three fingers pointing back at me....
Fingers are also known as digits, so you are talking about digital sound here...

Old 29th December 2017
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle View Post
...when I need certain words in the lyric to really pop...
A bunch of different pop filters too, no doubt :-)
Old 29th December 2017
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I think I just said that "clearer" is sometimes the opposite of "cleaner." A few years ago I said the same thing in a different thread and Ethan Winer jumped in with a major fist-shaking conniption. He's really bright and well-educated, like you, and neither of you seem to get it.

Here's a link to a song from a live internet radio show. Miked with 2 tube/transformer LDC's, one on the lead vocal, the other for everything else (guitar amp, bass amp, cajon). No physical separation, tiny room, and the spl was roaring. You can hear everything clear as a bell. No way, imo, this would be doable with tubeless and especially transformerless "hi-fi" mics.

http://studio-noho.net/Lantz_Lazwell_Do_It_Again.mp3

I've got more examples, too.
When you use non - musical and non-scientific words to describe audio terms, you need to speak with more "clarity" - one person's "clean" is another's "clearer".

I'm fully aware of what distortion can do in a mix, I teach students to use it in lieu of eq for certain things (I'm a big fan of adding distortion to pads, for example, snare drums, and whatever it takes).

However, distortion is a cheap commodity and there are many ways to get it, you don't need tube mic's and pre's with transformers (though I have them here in the studio and at school). In fact, tube mic's and transformers can work against you because you won't always get the "clarity" you seek, you might just wind up with a lot of "noise" you can't get rid of - you seem to be advocating the ONLY way to record is with tube LDC's and transformers ... do you really believe that? There are many fine recordings made with SS mic's (of all kinds) without transformers in the signal path ... I can't believe I have to say that, but I guess I do, because apparently, you "don't get it" .... sigh.

As for "not getting it", Ethan is not just smart and well-educated, he's a genius who's built and sold several businesses; built analog synths, mic pre's and a complete analog board that occupied his first commercial studio in South Norwalk CT. Unlike you (and me), he actually knows what goes into the making and design of all this stuff because he actually builds stuff, his latest "fun" project, which I'm trying to get him to market is, ironically, a "zulu" competitor - Ethan calls his the "Mojo Maestro".

Yes, he "gets it", very much so.

Ethan is also an extremely generous person with whom I've been close friends with for many years, I had him at my home for dinner just last week.

His book, "the audio expert" is nominated for an AES award and has gone into a second edition. I guess the AES folks "don't get it" either, why else would they have nominated his book? They must be dummies....
Old 29th December 2017
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BluegrassDan View Post
Coincidently, I just recorded this music video entirely using my hand-built tube mic preamps. I think all the instruments sound glued together nicely. There is no compression or EQ whatsoever on any of the tracks in this vid.
Sounds fantastic. Leagues ahead of a 610 to my ears.
Old 29th December 2017
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
When you use non - musical and non-scientific words to describe audio terms, you need to speak with more "clarity" - one person's "clean" is another's "clearer".
Okay, in non-precise, non-scientific terms, I think that "clean" means "not distorted." And I think "clear" means "distinguishable." And I think you can record sounds that are so clean they're indistinguishable in a mix.
Old 29th December 2017
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Okay, in non-precise, non-scientific terms, I think that "clean" means "not distorted." And I think "clear" means "distinguishable." And I think you can record sounds that are so clean they're indistinguishable in a mix.
Good for you, but a "clean" Fender Twin still has a fair degree of tube "warmth" .... these are just subjective terms people throw around, they mean different things to different people.
Old 29th December 2017
  #97
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Tube gear is not necessary noisy or distorted. It all depends of the quality of layout (noise) and the circuit topology (distortion).

Tube gear isn’t necessary “warm” or “dark” either.
Old 29th December 2017
  #98
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"we can't remember what something sounded like a few seconds ago, let alone years into the past. What things actually sounded like many years ago is lost to time"

Speak for yourself. This is your opinon and I dont appreciate you speaking for "we". When i was young I could recall the playing of a record in full.like a photoghraghic memory except it was Sonic recall.
It is also an invalidation of anyone who has experience whether recallable or not tnere is a knowable reference.
Old 30th December 2017
  #99
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I had always considered using the same Pre's for everything to impart a sonic imprint and a build up of this ass a sonic wash. Never thought of it as glue.
I had also considered recording mixboard to digital as imparting this wash more evident and the use of external Pre's similar to miking a kit with dmismatched mikes giving a wider sonic palate.

I'd like to ammend my conclusion that on most larger consoles there are enough tolerence differeces to impart a similar width and the danger of sonic wash build up in representing a flat lack of depth mix when reusing the same few preamps especially those in modern interfaces
Old 30th December 2017
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart Nettle View Post
"we can't remember what something sounded like a few seconds ago, let alone years into the past. What things actually sounded like many years ago is lost to time"

Speak for yourself. This is your opinon and I dont appreciate you speaking for "we". When i was young I could recall the playing of a record in full.like a photoghraghic memory except it was Sonic recall.
It is also an invalidation of anyone who has experience whether recallable or not tnere is a knowable reference.
No you can't, and that's a fact with plenty of science to back it up.
Old 30th December 2017
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
Good for you, but a "clean" Fender Twin still has a fair degree of tube "warmth" ....
Not if you were in standing front of the stage with Ted Nugent on it in the 60s LOL
Old 30th December 2017
  #102
I don’t think it becomes sonic wash....the various mics, and their placement will give the mix elements of space if they are used creatively.
Old 30th December 2017
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
Not if you were in standing front of the stage with Ted Nugent on it in the 60s LOL
Or Toy Caldwell with Marshall Tucker - he had a stack of early 70's Silverface Twins
Old 30th December 2017
  #104
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I don't think using the same pre "proactively" helps in anyway but as long as the consoles pre' s are of a high quality it should hinder either.

I wouldn't not use my boutique pres if the consoles pres were inferior .... that would be silly.

If the desk was a Neve 88RS I could be happy.
Old 30th December 2017
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
I spent a year at Amigo (the old Warner Brothers Studio) in North Hollywood in the mid 80's, and the SSL was locked up in a closet while everyone continued on the Harrison - soup to nuts recording and mixing on it, as I recall.

Recording technology, by and large, is old technology - it's rooted in telephone tech of the late 1800's - magnets, wires, and microphones, even the patchbay, it's a all old stuff - a Shure SM57 is a dinosaur, just as the internal combustion engine is to cars. Adding more tracks to tape was an incremental change; exciting for musicians who wanted to experiment, but was seen as a threat to others who thought overdubbing would replace them (the irony of session musicians complaining about synthesizers replacing them while the very careers they were enjoying were made possible by recording technology like sound in film, replacing thousands of live stage musicians).

My experience with recording "engineers" (I use quotes because most recording engineers these days are anything but electrical engineers) is like almost anyone else, they're not necessarily forward thinking, nor do they understand how the gear they love works, they just know what they like, and that's usually based on what they know and are used to and most important, have had success with, and the proof can be seen everywhere you look: an unhealthy obsession with vintage tube compressors (particularly the kind with classic labels out of the 50's and 60's), mic pre's, ribbon mic's (because the condensor is no longer good enough, or they simply can't roll of the high end with eq), and I've saved the best for last - "analog" vs "digital", which on any given day will probably see fighting and misinformation to rival the most incendiary automatic vs manual transmission debate in your car forum of choice - today on GS, count the number of posts and thread topics on the discussion point - it even extends into the synth categories under the guise of "hardware vs software".

It's the unusual "name" engineer who promotes and sings the praises of being 100% "itb".



There's a contradiction there, if the "general agreement is the older stuff is better, than they cannot both be great (I disagree with this point, btw, the SSL Duality I have the privilege of working with sounds just great to me). However, this paragraph makes my point, it's the "magical thinking" disease - people are "remembering" by romanticizing the past; they think things sounded better then, but they can't possibly verify that as fact, then people who weren't born back then hear these statements repeated today - especially by famous people -, it becomes ingrained and repeated enough times that it becomes fact - but there's no basis, except what some guys think they remember from back then. So now, kids are out looking for cheap, crappy tape machines to gain that "analog color", or broken mixers and compressors from back in the day that they can't figure out how to hook up, and if they could, are probably dangerous. Sigh ...

I believe most musicians (and many recording engineers), and I include myself in this, are essentially infected with the luddite gene, we feel comfortable with the familiarity of what we're used to - drummers, guitarists, pianists, string players, orchestrators, vocalists ... all of us are using the same basic tech we've been using for 100 years (and some cases, hundreds if not thousands of years) with new, incremental techy, add-ons. we reject new technology when it comes too fast - the SSL represented a big change, just as the CD did when it was released. Digital recording and automation were hard pills for many people to accept in our industry - but look at the change - some winners and some losers, the yin and the yang just as it's always been.

But hey, that's what music's all about, it's essentially old - our system of 12 tone harmony is as old as the hills, we dress it all up in modern clothes, using vintage gear .... pretty funny.
S

Sorry buddy but.....B F'n S!

Years before I could ever have called myself an engineer (No I don't use quotes, I earned my stripes) when I was about 10 years old in the late 80's I bought a record by my favorite band KISS called CRAZY NIGHTS

My 10-year-old ears were so highly offended by what I heard that I couldn't even pretend to like it (Like I had to pretend to like every KISS record AFTER Music From The Elder....couldn't stand the crappy "Hey we don't wear make-up and now we play heavy metal!" version of the band) but I digress...

...I GUSHED over the sounds of the 1970's version (We wear makeup and play Power-pop with the occasional disco tune thrown in for fun) Version of KISS, Bob Ezrin's "Destroyer" or "The Elder" Eddie Kramers "Rock n' Roll over" or "Love gun" Neal Bogart's (He wasn't even a producer, he was the label president, they couldn't afford to hire one at that point) Dressed to kill, Vini Poncia (It was ALMOST Morodor, but KISS woudn't wait for him) "Dynasty" and "Unmasked"

I also loved my first wave American and British Punk, The Sex Pistols Never Mind the Bollocks, The Dammed's Dammed Dammed Dammed, Both New York Dolls record's The Ramones first 4 record's (And I actually think Spector did a good job on the fifth, but I'll admit it sounds DIFFERENT) Bob Clearmountain's Original Mix of The Dead Boys "Young Loud and Snotty" Iggy and the Stooges RAW POWER

David Bowie Alladin Sane/Ziggy/Diamond Dogs, The Rolling Stones "Some Girls" "Emotional Rescue" "Undercover" I even love "Dirty work"

But something happened when KISS made CRAZY NIGHTS and the Stones made STEEL WHEELS

I didn't know what it was but the difference was NIGHT AND DAY,

All those records's I mentioned SOUNDED a certain way, they DID something

That something was GONE on CRAZY NIGHTS and STEEL WHEELS and it wasn't just inferior songwriting....

as a 10 year old I could hear it plain as day, even though I had no idea what the difference was

Those records along with the other gutless sounding records being released around that time were recorded..........can you guess?........I bet you can!

DIGITALLY!!!!!!!

I could tell something was wrong at 10 years of age so don't tell me that I'm nostalgic for record's that were made before I was born......those new record's sounded BAD

Neith KISS or the Stones would be caught dead using ANYTHING but 2" tape in 2017 and both groups have said so.......maybe they don't know much about records either? Not as much as you anyway.

Just like the first time I heard an analog synth I nearly soiled myself, the difference isn't small, the difference is HUGE!

Preamps, Mics, Guitars, Synths, Tape yes these things sound different and make all the difference in the world.

The problem with you 80's engineers is all you cared about was FIDELITY you cared about it more than the music you were recording, so all you guys LOVE C.D's sooooo much and think digital's pristine highs are just to die for

That whole generation of engineers have their head up one giant collective ass, they were raised trying to eliminate tape's imperfections, which were, in fact, AWESOME, chasing something NO ONE CARED ABOUT BUT THEM

Then when the world turned to them and said, "Hey guys! These records you are making suck! what happened to that tape machine we used to use" you threw one big collective tantrum, I see it in every thread where a kid asks about buying his first tape machine

There are 4 80's engineers in there within minutes trying to talk him out of it

Face it guys, you failed,

Fidelity sucks and the world knows it

The "engineers" as you patronizingly call them HAVE learned to KNOW WHAT THEY LIKE as you put it, but you are wrong about one thing, it isn't some delusional nostalgia (Look in the mirror for that) that makes them seek the sounds they do, it's the fact that unlike your generation of engineers

THEIR EARS DON'T LIE TO THEM
Old 30th December 2017
  #106
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I think I just said that "clearer" is sometimes the opposite of "cleaner." A few years ago I said the same thing in a different thread and Ethan Winer jumped in with a major fist-shaking conniption. He's really bright and well-educated, like you, and neither of you seem to get it.

Here's a link to a song from a live internet radio show. Miked with 2 tube/transformer LDC's, one on the lead vocal, the other for everything else (guitar amp, bass amp, cajon). No physical separation, tiny room, and the spl was roaring. You can hear everything clear as a bell. No way, imo, this would be doable with tubeless and especially transformerless "hi-fi" mics.

http://studio-noho.net/Lantz_Lazwell_Do_It_Again.mp3

I've got more examples, too.
That's groovy as hell, even on my laptop. Nice work, my friend.
Old 30th December 2017
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
That's groovy as hell, even on my laptop. Nice work, my friend.
Lantz is way high up on my "why aren't you famous" list.
Old 30th December 2017
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Lantz is way high up on my "why aren't you famous" list.
Must be a short list, indeed
Old 31st December 2017
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
Must be a short list, indeed
I'm guessing you are admired as a teacher!
Old 31st December 2017
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
Or Toy Caldwell with Marshall Tucker - he had a stack of early 70's Silverface Twins
Toy and Tommy were old friends. I miss them both greatly, what chicken pickers those two brother’s were.

Also miss Dan “Dangerous” Toler, he also played with a stack of twins or a couple super deluxes set on 6... rip your friggin head off. Miss his brother Frankie as well.

One pre for everything works great, many a major album done that way for decades. No sonic build up if you do your job correctly.

I use mainly tube pres built in the 60’s, open, clear, musical and euphoric... about 12 to 14 when tracking... plus a couple SS Electrodyne’s, Quad Eights and Melcors when needed. I want for nothing. YMWV

Most important... have fun!
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