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The Dutch & Dutch 8Cs are remarkable speakers.. Studio Monitors
Old 2nd December 2018
  #691
mpr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelterr View Post
Btw, hows my old Prism treating ya? I will say that I especially miss the sweet monitoring DA on that thing and my studio partner was kicking himself just a few days ago for not buying it off me. It is a wonderful machine and I assume it’s treating you well
I love your old prism! Here’s my current chain:

Reaper -> prism dac -> analog chain -> prism adc -> reaper -> prism dac -> mastering console (for proper level offsets) -> prism adc -> aes to trinnov -> aes to 8c.

I also have a direct aes feed from reaper (RME) to trinnov so that I can bypass the analog console and the added prism stages. I’ve done many hours of comparisons between the two feeds (direct vs round trip) and the prism dream conversion is so darn good at 96k that I no longer compare the two.

Also because I’m feeding the Trinnov via aes (for both feeds), Ive got a bit perfect bypass from it so I know exactly what it’s doing. It’s doing very little nowadays (the 8c filters doing the heavy lifting) but it is still clearly helping the response so i keep it in.

I’m looking forward to finally bypassing the trinnov one day if the 8c let’s us have finer control of the correction curve.

Btw shelter, what converters are you using now?
Old 2nd December 2018
  #692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamj31 View Post
Question: why would an external high end DAC even matter if the 8C’s are just going to reconvert anyways? Wouldn’t it make more sense to just go AES?
I haven’t quite figured out a ln AES solution yet but this is a great reminder to add it to my to do list!

Speaking of which, how are people running the 8c’s AES? I have an Avocet IIa and a Pro Tools HDX system. I monitor iTunes/Computer Audio via the Avocet DAC (toslink out of my Mac Pro Tower) and monitor Pro Tools either via the Avocet DA (via AES) or my iZ ADA DAC running into the Avocet Analog inputs.

I haven’t really looked into my best option for keeping the functionality of my current system while running the 8c’s AES so any insight would be appreciated.
Old 2nd December 2018
  #693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpr View Post
I love your old prism! Here’s my current chain:

Reaper -> prism dac -> analog chain -> prism adc -> reaper -> prism dac -> mastering console (for proper level offsets) -> prism adc -> aes to trinnov -> aes to 8c.

I also have a direct aes feed from reaper (RME) to trinnov so that I can bypass the analog console and the added prism stages. I’ve done many hours of comparisons between the two feeds (direct vs round trip) and the prism dream conversion is so darn good at 96k that I no longer compare the two.

Also because I’m feeding the Trinnov via aes (for both feeds), Ive got a bit perfect bypass from it so I know exactly what it’s doing. It’s doing very little nowadays (the 8c filters doing the heavy lifting) but it is still clearly helping the response so i keep it in.

I’m looking forward to finally bypassing the trinnov one day if the 8c let’s us have finer control of the correction curve.

Btw shelter, what converters are you using now?
So I ended up with a 24 I/O iZ ADA convertor connected via digilink into PT HDX. Like I told you, I needed more I/O and I really like the big natural sound of the iZ. I was using just that for tracking, mixing, and mastering for a little while with good results but then I ended getting a Pacific Microsonics Model One for my mastering AD/DA. It was pretty much the only high end convertor that interested me that I hadn’t heard/used and I absolutely love it.

So it was a winding road but I landed in a cool spot for my studio needs. That being said, I still hold the Prism ADA-8XR in the highest regard and I love the fact that you are utilizing the extra channels in your system. The fact that it is easily one of the best convertors to this day AND it is an 8 channel unit is just incredible.
Old 3rd December 2018
  #694
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FWIW, the 8Cs are staying here.
I like 'em and I've been thru a lot of very respectable monitors over 35 years of making noise for paying clients.
Old 3rd December 2018
  #695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Moran View Post
FWIW, the 8Cs are staying here.
I like 'em and I've been thru a lot of very respectable monitors over 35 years of making noise for paying clients.
An endorsement of note.
Old 3rd December 2018
  #696
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I am so glad my geek people are getting aquatinted with this most useful tool.
Old 3rd December 2018
  #697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomatic View Post
I am so glad my geek people are getting aquatinted with this most useful tool.
In no small part thanks to you, Michael.

And I firmly believe every mastering engineer should get 'aquatinted' :-)
Old 3rd December 2018
  #698
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Originally Posted by nomatic View Post
I am so glad my geek people are getting aquatinted with this most useful tool.

I am just green with envy....

Old 3rd December 2018
  #699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Moran View Post
I am just green with envy....

Oh I see what you did there!
Ha!
Old 5th December 2018
  #700
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I've been working on them for a few weeks now. The 8c offer remarkable sound for the size and price, and the low end performance is as good as I've ever heard. My friend has some test material with very deep, complex organ chords and picking out the individual notes wasn't quite as easy as on larger ATCs. It's tough to beat their LF driver distortion specs of course, maybe that explains it? That said, the bass is still ridiculously tight and even and very satisfying and easy to work with even at low monitoring levels. Modern productions with 808s or similar sounds excellent and judgement of LF energy and relationships is so easy. Acoustic music sounds very, very good and again it's quite easy to detect any subsonic rumbling.

The sound is very cohesive and more natural than I expected from this type of design. Huge sweet spot, very little off-axis coloration, no detectable crossovers. They are surprisingly good in less than stellar rooms and very adjustable despite a sometimes buggy and annoying web interface.

I first heard them twice in a hi-fi demo room - which was basically untreated aside from some thick curtains. In the sweet spot they still sounded improbably good. The stands were at the wrong height and they were well over a meter away from the walll - certainly not ideal at all, but they left a strong positive impression despite these handicaps.

Finally I got them to the studio I work out of and experimented for two days with positioning. It really makes a huge difference and I preferred having them about 40-50cm max away from the wall, with significant toe-in and approximately a 2m triangle.

After the positioning was set I listened to a lot of music before making some driver level adjustments. Later I used Room EQ Wizard to readjust the driver levels and got the flattest response with subs -5dB down and bass/tops even. Then I started addressing some peaks and a few dips with the parametric EQ. Not a great UX here for that, but things sounded good once dialed in.

I had to redo everything again once heavier, more suitable stands arrived, and that made the already great bass even tighter and punchier. The whole image cleaned up a bit too.

Overall I'm still undecided on them. Translation clicked almost immediately (happens rarely for me, One15 was another quick success for mixing), but sometimes I feel certain problems like midrange harshness aren't jumping out obviously. I can definitely say that I've never heard such a capable and balanced all in one system in this price range. Any other systems that really "did it" for me (flagship Amphion system, ATC 50/110/150 with great DACs) are maybe 50-100% more expensive locally. That they're relatively small and portable and easily adjust to different spaces is a big deal for me too, since I'm not in a permanent space at the moment.

Also I did find the AES input to sound better than analog, though I greatly prefer workflow with the Imperium monitoring controller. A HEDD Quantum serves as master clock here but there's no way to clock the 8c while using the analog ins. The latency isn't as intense as with the Kii Three but certainly noticeable. Figures I'd have my only advertising/video sync work in years while testing them. Anyway, that's all for now. Respect to the whole Dutch & Dutch team for the achievement.
Old 5th December 2018
  #701
mpr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B Elgin View Post
Overall I'm still undecided on them. Translation clicked almost immediately (happens rarely for me, One15 was another quick success for mixing), but sometimes I feel certain problems like midrange harshness aren't jumping out obviously.
Coming from years with the Amphion's I also struggled with this at first. I think the success many of us achieve on the Amphions comes from how quickly they let us park midrange frequencies with great confidence. And once the midrange energy is banging beautifully, suddenly getting the lows and highs correct is 1000x easier.

I struggled at first to hear the same harshness indicators on the 8c's, but over time my ear tuned into their natural response. Where the Amphions smack your spine when you light up the fight or flight frequencies, the 8c's require your ears to say "while not yet overtly annoying, I believe you've crossed a line".

Bottomline, master on those 8c's as much as you can during your demo time. I think you may be surprised by the results you achieve outside the studio, even during your learning period.

Last edited by mpr; 5th December 2018 at 10:23 PM..
Old 5th December 2018
  #702
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what he said.....
Old 6th December 2018
  #703
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...

Last edited by John Moran; 6th December 2018 at 04:18 AM.. Reason: 3.14159
Old 6th December 2018
  #704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpr View Post
Coming from years with the Amphion's I also struggled with this at first. I think the success many of us achieve on the Amphions comes from how quickly they let us park midrange frequencies with great confidence. And once the midrange energy is banging beautifully, suddenly getting the lows and highs correct is 1000x easier.

I struggled at first to hear the same harshness indicators on the 8c's, but over time my ear tuned into their natural response. Where the Amphions smack your spine when you light up the fight or flight frequencies, the 8c's require your ears to say "while not yet overtly annoying, I believe you've crossed a line".

Bottomline, master on those 8c's as much as you can during your demo time. I think you may be surprised by the results you achieve outside the studio, even during your learning period.
That makes sense - I'll keep working on them and most likely just need more experience to adjust to their more subtle presentation and should definitely reference more often.

What definitely surprised me was the very first test mastering I did they day they arrived. I had spent maybe 2-3 hours listening to some of my favorite music and playing with the wall proximity and toe-in. I hadn't used the EQ, room matching driver adjustment or measured the room response and was using my older undersized, underweight stands - just went for it to see what would happen.

This was a 3 song EP with huge and layered low end (synth bass, electric bass, 808s and other drum machines). Played it at home later that night and it was almost exactly where I wanted. I shared it with the band after explaining that it may be totally off and I was testing a new monitor system - they said it was nearly perfect, just needed a small amount of low mids around 300Hz added back in as the vocals sounded slightly thin.

Since then I've managed to get much nicer, tighter, more even sound out of them.

By the way, where have you ended up with the toe-in amount and width?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Moran View Post
...
Very curious about the mysterious post and involvement of pi here.
Old 8th December 2018
  #705
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Would you guys recommend the D&D 8c to put inside a 2,40m x 2,80m well treated but tiny studio??? Kii Three would be better for nearfield?? Their DSP corrections can fix the problems of being inside a tiny studio??
Old 8th December 2018
  #706
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You would have to try both, the 24 inbuilt parametric EQ filters are useful, borrow both and post your thoughts.
I installed some 8Cs this morning into a small domestic room, I feared the worst but actually the measurements weren’t that bad just added a couple of filters one for the length mode , but this was domestic.
Keith
Old 11th December 2018
  #707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puriteaudio View Post
You would have to try both, the 24 inbuilt parametric EQ filters are useful, borrow both and post your thoughts.
I installed some 8Cs this morning into a small domestic room, I feared the worst but actually the measurements weren’t that bad just added a couple of filters one for the length mode , but this was domestic.
Keith
I try but here in Brazil nobody have these two monitors to test :(

Need the experience from people here... That's the only way
Old 11th December 2018
  #708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weile View Post
Need the experience from people here... That's the only way
And unfortunately that way can prove to be very expensive when you realize you’ve spent 12k plus shipping on the wrong speakers.
Old 11th December 2018
  #709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
And unfortunately that way can prove to be very expensive when you realize you’ve spent 12k plus shipping on the wrong speakers.
Exactly this.

Need the experience from people here

I don't know if you are going to get any more than what's ion this thread already.

Contact D&D and see if they or someone can put a demo pair in the mail to you. You will likely have to offer up a CC first, tho.

Cheers.
Old 11th December 2018
  #710
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What they said......

I got demo and wrote a check after using...
Old 11th December 2018
  #711
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How to calculate sound pressure level at the front wall for the 8Cs?

I am interested in the Dutch and Dutch 8C for home use and I am trying to figure out how the 8Cs will compare to my traditional front firing speakers with respect to disturbing my neighbours on the other side of our front wall. Since most of you are pro-users of monitors and much better educated in the area of sound reproduction than I am, I hope that I can get some help with my calculations.

Both the woofer and the transmission line port of my current speakers (PMC) are front firing, with the port just above the floor. The fronts of the speakers are about 80 cm from the (concrete) front wall. The main listening position is about 2.5 meters (equidistant) from the speakers.

My question is the following. Let’s say that I want to reproduce bass with the 8Cs at 75 dB at my listening position. Given that I position the back of the 8Cs 35 cm from the front wall, how high will the sound pressure level against the wall be compared to when reproducing bass at 75 dB at my listening position with my current speakers?

I get lost in my calculations at the following point:

Since the woofers of the 8Cs (at 35 cm distance from the front wall) and the reflecting front wall is further from the listening position than the front of my current speakers, the sound level at the woofers have to be higher (compared to my current speakers) to obtain the 75 dB at the listening position, except that the proximity to the front wall of the woofers gets me an extra 5-6 dB gain (is this correct?) and therefore less excursion is needed to produce 75 dB at the listening position.

On the other hand, the woofers and front firing transmission line ports will be a bit more than twice the distance from the front wall compared to the woofers of the 8Cs and the rearward radiation of the bass frequencies from the PMCs will be at least 3 dB lower at the wall than for the 8Cs given the same sound pressure level at the woofers of the 8Cs and the PMCs. Furthermore, my current speakers have some bass gain since the transmission line ports are very close to the floor. Now I am getting lost...

So, which of the speakers will produce the highest sound pressure at the front wall (below 100 Hz) if I measure 75 dB at the listening position? That is, which of the speakers will be most audible by my neighbours?

Grateful for any help...
Old 11th December 2018
  #712
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The 8Cs have a cardioid response through the mids,
Dutch & Dutch - Listening experiences are often affected...

Quite a reduction from front to back, as always probably best to compare them actually in your room.
Keith
Old 12th December 2018
  #713
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Don't wan't to go off topic, maybe you should post the question in the acoustic section on this forum.

I'm afraid your neighbours are not going to see a 10K improvement here.

If they are the reason for the expenses better hire an acoustic consultant that will surely improve things (for your neighbours) much more than cardioid speakers.

Dutch & Dutch are only cardioid down to 100Hz I think, frequencies under 100Hz are precisely the ones that are more likely to go thru your walls. Consider also that the noise travels across the floor, ceiling, side walls, building sructure.... Is not that easy.
Old 12th December 2018
  #714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanArt View Post
Don't wan't to go off topic, maybe you should post the question in the acoustic section on this forum.

I'm afraid your neighbours are not going to see a 10K improvement here.

If they are the reason for the expenses better hire an acoustic consultant that will surely improve things (for your neighbours) much more than cardioid speakers.

Dutch & Dutch are only cardioid down to 100Hz I think, frequencies under 100Hz are precisely the ones that are more likely to go thru your walls. Consider also that the noise travels across the floor, ceiling, side walls, building sructure.... Is not that easy.
Thanks for pointing me to the acoustic section, I didn't think of that. I will post the question there instead.

Actually, I do not have any problems with my neighburs with my current speakers. I am worried about getting problems if I buy a pair of speakers where two powerfull subwoofers shoot straight into the wall from a very short distance compared to my setup today...
Old 12th December 2018
  #715
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I see, trying them will surely be the best way to know.

This scenarios are hard to predict but, I guess, that if your current setup extends down as low as the 8C then is not likely to be a problem.
Old 13th December 2018
  #716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanArt View Post
I see, trying them will surely be the best way to know.

This scenarios are hard to predict but, I guess, that if your current setup extends down as low as the 8C then is not likely to be a problem.
My PMCs extentds down to 25 Hz so they cover the full spectrum for most music. You are of course right, I will see if I can borrow a demo pair and measure myself.
Old 13th December 2018
  #717
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I have being reading lots of reviews and I still have some doubts:

1) The 24 filters on 8c DSP corrections are as powerful as Genelec GLM software to fix room modes dips and peaks???

2) How can I connect my Prism Titan digitally to D&D?? (Titan only have Toslink or Spidif digital outputs). I read on different reviews saying that the D&D sound loose quality if connected thru normal analog input because it would have to convert 2 times digital to analog than analog to digital and back again to analog inside speakers.

I know that all 3 speakers sound awesome! Now I need to clear these 2 technical points to decide between Genelec 8351, Kii or Dutch and Dutch 8c.

Thanks!!
Old 13th December 2018
  #718
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I haven’t used GLM for years, if I remember correctly it had an ‘automtic’ feature, the 8Cs don’t have that, you would need to measure, configure a filter, ( which is really straightforward) and then corobberate by measurement .
I can say they work extremely well, the 8Cs have an AES or analogue input, aes is just a higher voltage version of s/pdif I believe, it might be worth asking Martijn whether a simple Neutrik converter is going to affect performance.
I have compared two pairs of 8Cs one fed analogue one fed digital I can’t tell the difference , again it would have to be something to ascertain for yourself.
Keith
Old 13th December 2018
  #719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weile View Post
1) The 24 filters on 8c DSP corrections are as powerful as Genelec GLM software to fix room modes dips and peaks???
The Lanspeaker app for the 8c's has 24 positions where you can define your own filters, so they are not predefined. The choice of frequency and dB-correction values is free, as well as the q-factor for said frequency. Check out the screenshot below where you can see how one of the filters on my 8c is set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weile View Post
2) How can I connect my Prism Titan digitally to D&D?? (Titan only have Toslink or Spidif digital outputs). I read on different reviews saying that the D&D sound loose quality if connected thru normal analog input because it would have to convert 2 times digital to analog than analog to digital and back again to analog inside speakers.
It would be best to use a format converter that turns SPDIF or Toslink into AES. The most luxurious way to deal with this would be to buy a Lake People DAT RS 05, so you also have a magificent volume control under a rotating knob. But there are cheaper options as well, of course.
Attached Thumbnails
The Dutch & Dutch 8Cs are remarkable speakers..-d-d_lanspeaker_app.jpg  
Old 14th December 2018
  #720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weile View Post
2) How can I connect my Prism Titan digitally to D&D?? (Titan only have Toslink or Spidif digital outputs). I read on different reviews saying that the D&D sound loose quality if connected thru normal analog input because it would have to convert 2 times digital to analog than analog to digital and back again to analog inside speakers.

I know that all 3 speakers sound awesome! Now I need to clear these 2 technical points to decide between Genelec 8351, Kii or Dutch and Dutch 8c.

Thanks!!

Titan DIO can be AES and they should have provided the RCA to XLR connectors with the unit. If you don't have them, they are easy to build or get them from Prism. It's a simple setting for AES IO in the control application.

I have my 8C's set up to go digital or analog input from a Lyra (digital) or a Crookwood console (analog out from Mytek 8X192) and the difference is very, very, very small.
If you go into the 8C analog, it's one conversion AD/DA so the DSP processing can do it's thing. It's pretty damn transparent.
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