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Unconvinced on high end montiors Studio Monitors
Old 4 weeks ago
  #181
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
Or decide their not essential.

Ok I'm being the devils advocate here, as I do own some lovely high end monitors.

I must say I have come to not use them as much as I thought I would when mixing.

I used to read about mix engineers like MHB saying he spent 90% of his time mixing on an old Sony beat box ..... and there was I sat with my £3K high end monitors.

Then I bought an old Sony Beat box .... and I got it!

I think you really have to try one to be convinced
100% it is totally up to the Individual / whatever works
Old 4 weeks ago
  #182
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timtoonz's Avatar
I like good speakers better than crappy ones. I buy the best speakers I can afford. You guys are nuts. That is all.

Old 4 weeks ago
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timtoonz View Post
I like good speakers better than crappy ones. I buy the best speakers I can afford. You guys are nuts. That is all.

Like, certifiable.
Old 1 week ago
  #184
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Crazy4Jazz's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Can't believe how philosophical this thread got. All I ever mean to suggest was that it is not absolutely necessary to spend 10k for monitors and that perfectly good even great mixes can, have been and continue to be made on modestly priced monitors. If you can't get a good mix a pair of Yamaha's spending 10k on the hot speaker of the month will not help.
Old 1 week ago
  #185
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by timtoonz View Post
I like good speakers better than crappy ones. I buy the best speakers I can afford. You guys are nuts. That is all.

What is not to like. That is not the same as needing them. If you can't get a decent mix on Yamaha's (and whose to say they aren't "good") then spending 13 thousand on the speaker of the moment probably won't help. But at least you can take comfort in the fact that others a jealous of your deep pockets and beam with pride every time someone says "wow" or some such.

Speaking of "nuts"...
Old 1 week ago
  #186
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Thread Starter
And now that I think about it there was one other point. I found it somewhat offensive that anyone would suggest that unless you can afford the new standard of nearly 10k for monitors you will not be able to produce decent mixes. I know I saw such suggestions or damn near close to it. It thought that was a bit off and a little rude particularly to younger people starting out who maybe don't have that kind of money but have a great deal of natural ability and will, on their modest speakers make better sounding mixes than half the blowhards with fancy speakers tooting their own horns if you will. Why is it so hard to believe that marketing is responsible for the insane upturn in monitor prices and the perception that somehow this kind of expense is necessary. As for microphones, only them most expensive will work at all.
Old 1 week ago
  #187
m03
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m03's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
I found it somewhat offensive that anyone would suggest that unless you can afford the new standard of nearly 10k for monitors you will not be able to produce decent mixes. I know I saw such suggestions or damn near close to it.
You could just quote the posts you're referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
It thought that was a bit off and a little rude particularly to younger people starting out who maybe don't have that kind of money but have a great deal of natural ability and will, on their modest speakers make better sounding mixes than half the blowhards with fancy speakers tooting their own horns if you will.
Post some examples to help reinforce your point. I'd personally love to hear them.
Old 1 week ago
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
What is not to like. That is not the same as needing them. If you can't get a decent mix on Yamaha's (and whose to say they aren't "good") then spending 13 thousand on the speaker of the moment probably won't help. But at least you can take comfort in the fact that others a jealous of your deep pockets and beam with pride every time someone says "wow" or some such.

Speaking of "nuts"...
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder -- maybe it's because you want some speakers you can't afford that is the root of this. There are a few of us (I say this in the grand scheme of numbers) on GS who aren't "bedroom producers" or do music on the side. We earn 100% of our earnings off of music and sound -- and, for some of us, in expensive places to live (because that's where the work is.) If I intend to competitively work and live where I do, the tools become a "need."

Sure I could work on small Yamahas and get the job done but the time wasted learning the speakers and still not being satisfied about not having a full frequency response listening window would annoy me. And I'd lose a few jobs wasting my time -- time that pays for the speakers I have confidence in where I don't waste any time and return the value 10 to a 100 fold. For some of us, this is our actual job and not a side dream/project and this is an investment in tools that gets us more work. Faster results matter (especially with more confidence.)

But you've also drawn some arbitrary line in the sand (that also seems to indicate this is just you being jealous) at $10K or $13K. Realise, for a lot of people, $5K/pair is "high end". And there are a lot of great options in that range that I'd be happy to work on. And plenty I wouldn't. (True also for the >$10k/pair range.) Which also indicates your lack of understanding of what makes a high-end speaker; some (a lot!) is just marketing/hype inflation; some is the difference in cost based on production scale and engineering development -- have a smaller market and a higher cost and things cost more to make; some is just is the basic cost of production. Moving 150 lbs speakers around for building them out adds up in just transportation cost but the size and weight (and materials) can give a better result. What people look at as "no compromise" speakers (and yet, assuredly, there has been some compromise in production) is a desire not to cut corners and you pay for that (both in initial upfront and later in the room they need to be placed in.)

I've worked on speakers that I don't like -- some that would qualify in your high-end bracket, some lower, some much, much more than my chosen speakers. And I do it because it's sometimes the client's choice and transportation (especially when going overseas) and insurance is prohibitive for the clients. Were the 6 figure speakers I was working on bad (Wilson Audio and PMC flagships)? no. But I felt I wasted a bunch of time not getting work done. There were plenty of 4 figure speakers I could have gotten work done on faster. Would I have taken my speakers (5 figure) over everything else even in an unknown room -- absolutely. Probably would have shaved a month of time off. But it's not because of cost but familiarity and their full-range. I wouldn't ever need to second guess -- a few listens to some of my favourite songs and I'd know how things are going to translate in a room. Does saving a month of time equal "need"? For some of us that means we can take another job.
Old 1 week ago
  #189
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
And now that I think about it there was one other point. I found it somewhat offensive that anyone would suggest that unless you can afford the new standard of nearly 10k for monitors you will not be able to produce decent mixes. I know I saw such suggestions or damn near close to it. It thought that was a bit off and a little rude particularly to younger people starting out who maybe don't have that kind of money but have a great deal of natural ability and will, on their modest speakers make better sounding mixes than half the blowhards with fancy speakers tooting their own horns if you will. Why is it so hard to believe that marketing is responsible for the insane upturn in monitor prices and the perception that somehow this kind of expense is necessary. As for microphones, only them most expensive will work at all.
you have read what you want.

The NS10 is the counter example and contradict your words.
NS10:
A cheap hifi speaker designed to be neutral with a listen at 3 ou 4 m, set in the corner.
Used in nearfield in studio producing a non neutral sound.
Old 1 week ago
  #190
thread levels...

bovine excrement meter pegged

Old 1 week ago
  #191
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myles's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
bovine excrement meter pegged

You don't really need that $10k BEM. It's an insult to younger engineers (or someone, surely). Stop kidding yourself. Or someone. But I'm not a troll. Really.
Old 1 week ago
  #192
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
Can't believe how philosophical this thread got. All I ever mean to suggest was that it is not absolutely necessary to spend 10k for monitors and that perfectly good even great mixes can, have been and continue to be made on modestly priced monitors. If you can't get a good mix a pair of Yamaha's spending 10k on the hot speaker of the month will not help.
It's not, but after a long gruelling search through monitors ranging from $250.00 to nearly $8K there wasn't any in the sub $1.25K bracket I trusted completely. In some cases you were probably better off using Hi-Fi speakers..

Past that, it seems we start hitting the realms of personal preference and law of diminishing returns. Some monitors I tried had a ridiculous amount of fast transient feedback which is great in a clinical sense but not something I can personally relate to.

I know it's a cop out but whatever works for you..
Old 1 week ago
  #193
This is like trying to talk someone out of jumping off a building, who's already made up their mind. (BTW NO one has said you can't make a good mix with speakers you like no matter what the cost. This is a high end forum and insulting to real engineers to suggest that.) So go ahead, happy landing!
Old 1 week ago
  #194
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowAMD View Post
I know it's a cop out but whatever works for you..
Not a cop out.

A very sensible statement. (as long as you're happy with it, and like the results)
Old 1 week ago
  #195
Gear Head
 
juiseman's Avatar
 

Just build you're own speakers and see what you like.
There are plenty of kits available, or you can cut your own cabinets
you can buy some pretty high quality speakers for a fraction of the cost..
I bet any popular active monitor below that $1000 price tag is most likely going to be the cheapest components/speakers/cabinets they can stuff in there.
Its just the sad truth of how stuff works..

My buddy built 3 sets for our studio. I can "see" into mix now.
The only issue now is I want to turn it up so loud with 4 amps and 5 sets
of monitors plus a custom sub; i usually just want to jam rather than do
anything serious....which is fine because I'm just 17+ year professional hobbyist.
The only downside is we run all passive speakers ...soo...you have to buy an amp (or 5) ha... but the upside is you can try out different speakers if you get board..

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...-pair--300-640

https://www.parts-express.com/overni...-pair--300-706

https://www.parts-express.com/tritri...-pair--300-702

here is some examples of some diy kits, i bet they blow any of these cheap monitors out of the water...
Attached Thumbnails
Unconvinced on high end montiors-studio.jpg  
Old 1 week ago
  #196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
And now that I think about it there was one other point. I found it somewhat offensive that anyone would suggest that unless you can afford the new standard of nearly 10k for monitors you will not be able to produce decent mixes...
Who suggested this, and where? The entire history of the thread is available for you to point it out. Please point it out.

Quote:
...I know I saw such suggestions or damn near close to it. It thought that was a bit off and a little rude particularly to younger people starting out who maybe don't have that kind of money but have a great deal of natural ability and will, on their modest speakers make better sounding mixes than half the blowhards with fancy speakers tooting their own horns if you will...
As far as I can tell you're arguing this point with yourself.

More importantly some people have written repeatedly, and very carefully, what they're talking about on this thread. You've been very insistent that someone is arguing what you're accusing them of arguing. But you have not pointed out one instance of credible evidence to confirm your accusation. You have not even logically explained how you might have made the leap from whatever anyone has said to what you're accusing them of meaning.

Quote:
...Why is it so hard to believe that marketing is responsible for the insane upturn in monitor prices and the perception that somehow this kind of expense is necessary...
I would be inclined to believe that if I didn't already know, from years of direct experience, that well designed monitoring systems, in well designed rooms, actually make the work of tracking, mixing, and mastering much easier and faster. Nobody working as a professional is spending money on these kinds of things just to look good.

This seems to be the crux of your perspective. You seem to think that there is no need for ultra high performance monitoring systems, or alternatively that there is no appreciable difference (in terms of work output) between systems designed to be ultra high performance, and more broadly affordable options. I think, as I mentioned before on like page one, that it depends on who one is and what one must do.

Again, as I said on the first page, high-end professionals have a lot more work than hobbyists. Monitoring on budget systems, in bedroom studios, is harder and generally more time consuming to do than on high-end monitoring systems in acoustically neutral spaces. That's not marketing. That is a finding that professionals, that do high-end monitoring, have made time and again. So for those professionals there is a need for ultra high performance monitoring systems. They want to get work done fast. They want the process of working to be easy on them, because they have a lot of work to do.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that the above is actually the case? Why must your understanding of the economics of this topic default to this conspiratorial marketing ploy? And, for goodness sake, how does a person stating what I've stated above suggest that one can't get high quality results with more broadly affordable systems? In no way is that the same argument.
Old 1 week ago
  #197
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Crazy4Jazz's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
I know it's a cop out but whatever works for you..
I agree that this is no cop out except I am not sure what "works" means in context. It is amongst the most subjective of criteria. The only thing that is certain is that if you cannot play violin purchasing a Stradivarius is unlikely to change that. Why people assume mixing is all about the gear is somewhat baffling. At a certain point the gear can be insufficient for a good result. But nowadays there is very high quality gear available that does not require a huge investment. Advanced manufacturing techniques, plug-ins, digital domain, etc. has made high quality recording affordable. The only thing that still requires a significant investment is the development of skills. That will never change.

High end monitors sound nice and are impressive. I will purchase a pair within the next year but I harbor no illusions that the monitors will make me a better engineer. That, like every other advanced artistic skill, requires dedication, focus and practice. If you think you can buy your way in, then you have already failed.
Old 1 week ago
  #198
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Crazy4Jazz's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
bovine excrement meter pegged

Pretty much topped by the blowhard meter.
Old 1 week ago
  #199
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timtoonz's Avatar
I'm still unconvinced on this thread.

Maybe we should just paste a huge "It's The Arrow, Not the Native American!" banner across the top of the Gearslutz masthead? If nothing else, it might reduce the number of "gear is not important" arguments here on this site dedicated to cool professional gear...
Old 1 week ago
  #200
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Crazy4Jazz's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Not sure what anyone is bitching about. If you think this topic has no merit, then go somewhere else. If you are just looking for someone to insult because you have a need, knock yourself out. I originally wrote I was unconvinced, rather than trying to convince me of the merits based upon, for instance, actual experience of objective data, all I got was a bunch of childish "bovine excrement". What a f'ing surprise. What I asked is a legitimate question and certainly don't need anyone else's confirmation to know that. Whether the discussion produces useful information is another story. That, of course, is asking too much.

Anyway, here is a mix done on a decent set of monitors. Sounds pretty good. Tell how I can improve it and where the monitors might be compromising the mix and maybe that will actually be useful and dare I say, persuasive.
Attached Files

01 JT Bass Solo Excerpt 6.mp3 (14.85 MB, 649 views)

Old 1 week ago
  #201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
Not sure what anyone is bitching about. If you think this topic has no merit, then go somewhere else. If you are just looking for someone to insult because you have a need, knock yourself out. I originally wrote I was unconvinced, rather than trying to convince me of the merits based upon, for instance, actual experience of objective data, all I got was a bunch of childish "bovine excrement". What a f'ing surprise. What I asked is a legitimate question and certainly don't need anyone else's confirmation to know that. Whether the discussion produces useful information is another story. That, of course, is asking too much.

Anyway, here is a mix done on a decent set of monitors. Sounds pretty good. Tell how I can improve it and where the monitors might be compromising the mix and maybe that will actually be useful and dare I say, persuasive.

(clip is misnamed, not a bass solo)
What in the world are you talking about? You start a thread, you have no interest in listening to others viewpoints who are politely trying to help you, and you put up straw men arguments. You are arguing with yourself at this point. How the hell is someone supposed to listen to a mix done on god knows what machinery in whatever room, and make suggestions on monitoring... Honestly, it's OK you win.....you have great speakers and seem to be happy.... that's great!
Old 1 week ago
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
The only thing that is certain is that if you cannot play violin purchasing a Stradivarius is unlikely to change that. Why people assume mixing is all about the gear is somewhat baffling.
Who has assumed (and said here) that mixing IS all about the gear? Several people have asked you this now....can you point to a particular comment that has made such a claim?


Quote:
High end monitors sound nice and are impressive. I will purchase a pair within the next year but I harbor no illusions that the monitors will make me a better engineer. That, like every other advanced artistic skill, requires dedication, focus and practice. If you think you can buy your way in, then you have already failed.
You're right, they won't magically elevate your skill set and endow you with more natural talent. But they likely will allow you to hear better what you're doing, and eventually enable you to trust what you're hearing so that you can make good decisions faster, and more confidently. Working better and faster is part of being a better engineer/mixer. Monitors are tools, not magic charms.

And if you don't think that high quality monitors will help you make yourself a better engineer, why would you consider buying them? To "impress" yourself?

Who has said that anyone can just "buy their way in" (to the talent that leads to the big time mixing gigs, I assume you mean) simply by purchasing the dopest gear? Would that it were so easy anyway....dollars are a way smaller obstacle than time, effort and experience.
Old 1 week ago
  #203
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DarkSky Media's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardis View Post
What in the world are you talking about? You start a thread, you have no interest in listening to others viewpoints who are politely trying to help you, and you put up straw men arguments. You are arguing with yourself at this point. How the hell is someone supposed to listen to a mix done on god knows what machinery in whatever room, and make suggestions on monitoring... Honestly, it's OK you win.....you have great speakers and seem to be happy.... that's great!
Yes.

The OP has displayed an astonishing need to be "right" at any and/all costs. Where necessary, extending to ventriloquism and the sheer invention of arguments-not-in-evidence that he can critique and demolish - thus demonstrating his extraordinary rightness compared to such examples (alas, not in evidence) of astonishing and abominable wrongness.

By failing to say any of those things the OP was hoping to argue against (to thereby prove his inestimable rightness), we've all been rather a disappointment. But he continues undaunted!

Old 1 week ago
  #204
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robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
Anyway, here is a mix done on a decent set of monitors. Sounds pretty good. Tell how I can improve it and where the monitors might be compromising the mix and maybe that will actually be useful and dare I say, persuasive.
First - major props for actually posting one of your mixes. It's a really nice piece to listen to. To me, the soundstage is a little flat. The bass sounds a bit hollow, and seems pushed back. Drums could use more gain, and depending on how many mics you used, a little playing with balance. If you just did the whole thing with a stereo mic - more power to you. But even then, I think this is not close to the richness of a reference track from Christian McBride, for example.

In other words, if you had better monitors (or room treatment, or preferably both) you'd be able to hear these things.
Old 1 week ago
  #205
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KevWind's Avatar
After carefully considering everything that has been said I remain unconvinced
I have a total grasp on the situation Why is everybody just insulting me by telling me to look up ?

Old 1 week ago
  #206
Lives for gear
 

This was a most awesome episode of

"The Real Posters of Gearslutz 2017, High End Monitors Edition"
Old 1 week ago
  #207
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Crazy4Jazz's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
After carefully considering everything that has been said I remain unconvinced
I have a total grasp on the situation Why is everybody just insulting me by telling me to look up ?

As with all the others, did you even read any of it or did you just assume something unrelated about expensive monitors. Further, if asking the question is in your opinion, hiding ones head in the sand, then I'm an Ostrich because I will ask.

Lastly, in my opening I wrote unequivocally that I would love some high end monitors. The point was that I might, MIGHT, be mistaken were I to believe I actually needed them and that the perception of need may be response to effective marketing.

NOW, what exactly do you think is the problem with that that it should have received so many personal attacks, like yours. If you think otherwise, feel free to say why. On the other hand, you can just send out campy pictures because reading and writing are too much trouble. See, I can do it to. It's not really hard to be an asshole. You might even notice that the initial post was more a matter of a question than a statement or at least, a thought process. It only turned ugly when the snotty rich kids of GS got a hold of it.
Old 1 week ago
  #208
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Crazy4Jazz's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
First - major props for actually posting one of your mixes. It's a really nice piece to listen to. To me, the soundstage is a little flat. The bass sounds a bit hollow, and seems pushed back. Drums could use more gain, and depending on how many mics you used, a little playing with balance. If you just did the whole thing with a stereo mic - more power to you. But even then, I think this is not close to the richness of a reference track from Christian McBride, for example.

In other words, if you had better monitors (or room treatment, or preferably both) you'd be able to hear these things.
The first thing is, the mp3 does not sound the same as the original track.

As for the bass, I wasn't sure if I wanted it more upfront or not. The main reason was that throughout the performance the bass player was at times pushing himself up front and at other times falling back a little. I thought it was worthwhile to try to maintain that though it's not obvious from an excerpt.

As for the drums, for the style I think they were loud enough. When you say "drums" I wonder if you could be a bit more specific. I was of the opinion, again for the style, that the kick was a bit to much.

As for the soundstage I will assume you are talking about placement of the instruments but in general there isn't a whole lot of panning to do on a piano trio track. If you have other ideas, please share away.

And, other than Christian McBride, what other Jazz tracks or artists do you think were well recorded?
Old 1 week ago
  #209
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Crazy4Jazz's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSky Media View Post
Yes.

The OP has displayed an astonishing need to be "right" at any and/all costs. Where necessary, extending to ventriloquism and the sheer invention of arguments-not-in-evidence that he can critique and demolish - thus demonstrating his extraordinary rightness compared to such examples (alas, not in evidence) of astonishing and abominable wrongness.

By failing to say any of those things the OP was hoping to argue against (to thereby prove his inestimable rightness), we've all been rather a disappointment. But he continues undaunted!

The basic premise is right - to the the man that has to join the mob. Try thinking for yourself a little and drop the mob mentality for a moment.

The obvious problem here is that none of you that have so joyously excoriated me took a minute to really think it through. I never said that good monitors weren't necessary, I said it was unnecessary to spend large sums of money to get good usable monitors. If you disagree, why? If not what are you talking about?

Now, let us see if you bother to read this and who, in the end, has the need to be right.

It was not until people starting trying to attack me personally instead of discussing the premise that this thread became ugly. Now its just a joke of me having to defend myself against a pile on.
Old 1 week ago
  #210
Gear Nut
 

Hmmmm....

Well it does matter on a few points that may or may not matter to you.

With high end monitors there should be less hype, lower distortion, and if they are powered you are ruling out using a low grade power amp and possibly amps that aren't matched. They will allow you to hear 'more' of the music and of course can reproduce lower and higher frequencies better/more efficiently.

I think the real question is - if your (the royal not personal) mindset is that they don't matter, then taken to the extreme, none of this matters.

I'm not being existential. Audio is about percentages. I'll do a shoot out on a vocal and use the 47 because it has just that little more than the 251. Do i use the 1176 or the LA2 to compress... well the LA2 is adding a hair too much harmonics to it so ill go with the up frontness of the 1176 because i can make it stand on the vocal. Do I use the Crane Song AD or the Burl? I think the Crane Song is giving me that little extra detail on this song.

Over the course of a song, all those percentages add up. If I feel that spending 5-15k on monitors gives me a 2% edge over another engineer - Im spending 5-15k.

I've learned that at the end of the day I only have to be told once that someone's tracking/mixing was that little extra better.

More to the OP's point - if this is a hobby or you aren't like myself or someone that has made a living their entire life doing this - maybe start out with inexpensive monitors.
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