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SSL Console 4000 E/G+ Or 9000J, or Bunch of Outboard Gear for Hybrid Mixing
Old 11th April 2018
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambon_Analog View Post

Technology that can become obsolete for me is now the biggest no no.
No large collection of plugins (just core basics).
No cheap hardware bought for the sake of quantity.
No faddy hardware.

Amen brother! This is exactly our strategy!
Old 11th April 2018
  #302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
Bingo! Read this twice and contemplate.

I don't get this train of thought. At all. Your analogy is invalid. In no way does it negate or even refute the comment by deuc647. Hardware has it's inherent qualities. ITB has inherent qualities too, even some "advantages" depending on your aesthetic and clientele. Analog also has its own advantages. However, In order to match the inherent qualities of hardware/console(s) working ITB...you have to do extra steps. A lot of extra steps if I'm being brutally honest. Period. I'm sitting in front of a console but mix 100% ITB by the way. Less anyone accuse me of being [GASP] biased.

[EDIT] I feel I need to add this last statement. You might be asking "why do I need to match the "OTB" sound "ITB"? Well, I think there is a consensus that all the revered mixers who have migrated ITB are able to get an OTB sound working ITB. After all, that is the target!
I definitely agree - but with the caveat that mixing OTB can tak extra steps too (eg printing FX to free up machines, making compromises on eq or send settings because of lack of automation, etc).

It’s always a trade off. Which is why the smart guys mixing OTB have taken on aspects of ITB workflow or in other ways adapted to compensate for the limitations, or the ITB guys have templates or go-to processing to compensate for the inherent “neutralness “.

I don’t think it’s coincidence the guys doing the best work ITB learned on consoles and have refined their workflow to take account of lessons learned. The key is going to be the “new generation” who didn’t, to see if they can make that same step (or a similar step that achieves the same thing).
Old 11th April 2018
  #303
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamboom View Post
Not that PsychoMonkey needs to be defended, but I will say that I completely agree with his assessment.

If you honestly believe that ITB is "misleading to young people starting out" then you are entitled to your opinion. I disagree, and that's just my opinion too.

Here is why:

In my experience, people who say ITB sounds worse typically don't realize that they are not making an apples to apples comparison.

For instance, if you want the "depth" and "width" that people seem to associate with analog, did you apply the equivalent ITB? Most seem to only do it to a limited degree, such as applying a console emulation like the Slate or the Waves ones. But there is more to it than that. Have they used tools like DrMs to create width? And the myriad of different saturation options on the market? You can apply ridiculous amounts of 'color" ITB if you really want to. And of course go the total opposite way. ITB leaves this up to you.

Based on other people's sessions I have seen, not many really GET IT.

Remember the earlier posts in this thread by MichaelAngelo where he said that his clients always pick the tape transfer? Talk about total lack of proper comparison. Of course they picked the tape. It's the fallacy of predetermined outcome
This theory makes apples to apples comparison impossible. If you put a mix through an SSL 4k, what's the consensus for things you'd compare to itb?

If it's unfair to compare the summing via one thing to the summing via another, then there's nothing we can test.


If you came up with a standard set of tools itb for comparison to make them comparable to the SSL, would it be fair for me to place a pair of pultecs on the 2 bus of the SSL just for the sake of comparison?


Essentially, nothing can be compared to anything at that point.
Old 11th April 2018
  #304
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RoundBadge's Avatar
all’s I have to do is listen to current tchad blake mixes to realize the whole console vs itb argument is horsesh*t.dont care anymore.
and yeah I have a nice class A discrete console and wall of outboard crap.
Old 11th April 2018
  #305
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
all’s I have to do is listen to current tchad blake mixes to realize the whole console vs itb argument is horsesh*t.dont care anymore.
and yeah I have a nice class A discrete console and wall of outboard crap.

With all due respect (and I mean that sincerely RB), this is kind of like saying "Michael Jordan can dunk from the foul line so anyone should be able to do it if they had a pair of Nike Air-Jordans".

Tchad has "cracked the nut" so to speak. He is by far my favorite ITB mixer. By far! Although I can't speak for everyone, the rest of us are still "works in progress". Getting closer and closer though.
Old 11th April 2018
  #306
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myles's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
all’s I have to do is listen to current tchad blake mixes to realize the whole console vs itb argument is horsesh*t.dont care anymore.
and yeah I have a nice class A discrete console and wall of outboard crap.
And another amen to that. Indians, arrows, etc.
Old 11th April 2018
  #307
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
With all due respect (and I mean that sincerely RB), this is kind of like saying "Michael Jordan can dunk from the foul line so anyone should be able to do it if they had a pair of Nike Air-Jordans".

Tchad has "cracked the nut" so to speak. He is by far my favorite ITB mixer. By far! Although I can't speak for everyone, the rest of us are still "works in progress". Getting closer and closer though.
Haha not gonna disagree
just saying it’s being done.
Itb?im hybrid but way behind the curve going all in.
need my stuff! lol
Old 12th April 2018
  #308
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
Haha not gonna disagree
just saying it’s being done.
Itb?im hybrid but way behind the curve going all in.
need my stuff! lol
I look at it as Pensado put it, it's playing with all the cards in the deck. The primary thing that needs to keep improving at my spot is me. Everything else is just a tool to be learned and used. As long as I can pick up a new tip or technique, in or otb, it means I haven't maximized what I already have. It doesn't matter if itb is better or worse if I haven't mastered my tools to the best of my ability, I have work to do.

I concentrate on mastering what I have, and as time progresses technology gives me newer and better tools to battle me with.

It keeps me out of the constant upgrade trail if I focus on upgrading my talents and musicianship. I'm a decent engineer and I improve constantly, but the beauty of all of this is we are transmitting emotions in the way people respond to sounds that resonate with their brains.

I constantly try to narrow these discussions to techniques because it gives us all something to actively try out and experiment with. We may discover something unintended in that experimentation process that works.. I'd rather hear what someone started doing to make itb work that was differentfrom how they worked when it didn't work for them. It's a catch phrase to say you need to learn to mix itb. But few people here have analyzed what they do differently itb and why they do it.

I'm trying to push myself out of the habit of reaching for something because it's there and I like the thought that if I narrow down a way to somewhat duplicate what I reach for itb, I gain a better understanding of exactly why I reach for it, and what it does,. so as a result, I improve at using the piece of gear
Old 12th April 2018
  #309
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myles's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
I look at it as Pensado put it, it's playing with all the cards in the deck. The primary thing that needs to keep improving at my spot is me. Everything else is just a tool to be learned and used. As long as I can pick up a new tip or technique, in or otb, it means I haven't maximized what I already have. It doesn't matter if itb is better or worse if I haven't mastered my tools to the best of my ability, I have work to do.

I concentrate on mastering what I have, and as time progresses technology gives me newer and better tools to battle me with.

It keeps me out of the constant upgrade trail if I focus on upgrading my talents and musicianship. I'm a decent engineer and I improve constantly, but the beauty of all of this is we are transmitting emotions in the way people respond to sounds that resonate with their brains.

I constantly try to narrow these discussions to techniques because it gives us all something to actively try out and experiment with. We may discover something unintended in that experimentation process that works.. I'd rather hear what someone started doing to make itb work that was differentfrom how they worked when it didn't work for them. It's a catch phrase to say you need to learn to mix itb. But few people here have analyzed what they do differently itb and why they do it.

I'm trying to push myself out of the habit of reaching for something because it's there and I like the thought that if I narrow down a way to somewhat duplicate what I reach for itb, I gain a better understanding of exactly why I reach for it, and what it does,. so as a result, I improve at using the piece of gear
This. It's easier to buy gear than to think about what you're doing and why. To be fair, it's also fun to buy gear, hence this site.

I've sat on both sides of the glass for many years. The thing that has always struck me about some engineers is that they want to control things, sometimes at the expense of vibe, performance and, sometimes, even sound. It is music we're trying to transmit, hopefully with the best performances we can make possible by the environment we create in the studio, with the sounds that make the music strongest emotionally.

As you said, it's learning about how people work that I get the most out of here, usually by reading between the lines, or as offhand remarks in a gear thread.

Trying to be both a good engineer and a creative performer when you do both, as I do, is another challenge altogether.

Sorry for taking this further off-topic.
Old 12th April 2018
  #310
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
I look at it as Pensado put it, it's playing with all the cards in the deck. The primary thing that needs to keep improving at my spot is me. Everything else is just a tool to be learned and used. As long as I can pick up a new tip or technique, in or otb, it means I haven't maximized what I already have. It doesn't matter if itb is better or worse if I haven't mastered my tools to the best of my ability, I have work to do.

I concentrate on mastering what I have, and as time progresses technology gives me newer and better tools to battle me with.

It keeps me out of the constant upgrade trail if I focus on upgrading my talents and musicianship. I'm a decent engineer and I improve constantly, but the beauty of all of this is we are transmitting emotions in the way people respond to sounds that resonate with their brains.

I constantly try to narrow these discussions to techniques because it gives us all something to actively try out and experiment with. We may discover something unintended in that experimentation process that works.. I'd rather hear what someone started doing to make itb work that was differentfrom how they worked when it didn't work for them. It's a catch phrase to say you need to learn to mix itb. But few people here have analyzed what they do differently itb and why they do it.

I'm trying to push myself out of the habit of reaching for something because it's there and I like the thought that if I narrow down a way to somewhat duplicate what I reach for itb, I gain a better understanding of exactly why I reach for it, and what it does,. so as a result, I improve at using the piece of gear


Really good post here. I know it's not really viable but anyone who claims they are now 100% ITB and says "if you can't mix like me, then you suck!" should talk briefly about what they found advantageous being ITB, how they adapted and have at least a snippet of something they have done in that domain.

Like that saying, a picture is worth a thousand words. It would clear up a lot of the ITB vs OTB back and forth we get on a daily on this site. Let's face it...the guys who talk the loudest in these threads are usually the ones who have no "paper trail" if you get my drift and it's always the same handful in these threads.
Old 12th April 2018
  #311
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myles's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
Really good post here. I know it's not really viable but anyone who claims they are now 100% ITB and says "if you can't mix like me, then you suck!" should talk briefly about what they found advantageous being ITB, how they adapted and have at least a snippet of something they have done in that domain.

Like that saying, a picture is worth a thousand words. It would clear up a lot of the ITB vs OTB back and forth we get on a daily on this site. Let's face it...the guys who talk the loudest in these threads are usually the ones who have no "paper trail" if you get my drift and it's always the same handful in these threads.
Yes, indeed.

One other thing I thought of when using "Famous Mixer A" and "Famous Mixer B" as means to prove points in threads like this... most of the good mixers I've read interviews with (and TB in particular) are always very quick to credit the quality of the tracked recordings they're given to mix. You can also hope that the arrangements are good, and quality tracks and good arrangements make for better mixes, whether ITB or OTB. And I wonder how much analog outboard goes into well-done tracks... so the argument about mixing isn't really just about mixing, it's about the whole process.

Just a thought, feel free to slam!

Given your location description, Funny Cat, would you be in the Commonwealth?
Old 12th April 2018
  #312
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Funny Cat's Avatar
@ myles


No not in the Commonwealth. Although I wish I was at times! I’m in Colorado.
Old 12th April 2018
  #313
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myles's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
@ myles


No not in the Commonwealth. Although I wish I was at times! I’m in Colorado.
Old 13th April 2018
  #314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
Really good post here. I know it's not really viable but anyone who claims they are now 100% ITB and says "if you can't mix like me, then you suck!" should talk briefly about what they found advantageous being ITB, how they adapted and have at least a snippet of something they have done in that domain.

Like that saying, a picture is worth a thousand words. It would clear up a lot of the ITB vs OTB back and forth we get on a daily on this site. Let's face it...the guys who talk the loudest in these threads are usually the ones who have no "paper trail" if you get my drift and it's always the same handful in these threads.
I'm not touting myself in those terms, but I certainly don't mind stating what I've done and letting people make their own minds up!



100% ITB mix. Yes, I tracked with a fair amount of outboard in a good room with great musos (actually - I didn't personally record a lot of this one, it was done on one of the 4 days I didn't work on this album, but it was tracked with all the sounds I set up). But that's not to say the mix was simple levelling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myles View Post
Yes, indeed.

One other thing I thought of when using "Famous Mixer A" and "Famous Mixer B" as means to prove points in threads like this... most of the good mixers I've read interviews with (and TB in particular) are always very quick to credit the quality of the tracked recordings they're given to mix. You can also hope that the arrangements are good, and quality tracks and good arrangements make for better mixes, whether ITB or OTB. And I wonder how much analog outboard goes into well-done tracks... so the argument about mixing isn't really just about mixing, it's about the whole process.

Just a thought, feel free to slam!
Sure you'd hope if you were getting a recording to mix from a great production team, it'd be well recorded and with a fair amount of the direction committed too.

It can be the case, but the idea that top mix engineers ONLY get great tracking to deal with is a bit of a fallacy. I've seen some shocking examples of tracks given to great guys to mix, who turned them around!

Maybe the quality is better than your average local self-recordists, but likewise the limiting factor then is more likely the local mix engineer's abilities more than the absence of outboard!
Old 13th April 2018
  #315
Gear Addict
 

A tool is a tool and paper is paper(some of us don't like any trails whatsoever; I hate not being able to buy coffee in gentrified spaces without using the damn plastic here in Stockholm......).

ITB 100% comming from the analog world working in a small footprint highly accurate Sonic environment customized to meet my eccentricities.

Love what analog does; but with the exponential constant sonic improvements in the digital realm (not to mention the workflow advantages) and what I rather do with my money got me (for the time being) more then content stuck in the digital realm for those reasons.

Wouldn't mind a small footprint analog old school Calrec mixer with some internal compressors though in my Studio; just saying......

Anybody that can't deliver an excellent mix ITB; need to consider a different line of work; PERIOD (and I'm not talking about the cycle every month neither).
Old 13th April 2018
  #316
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I'm not touting myself in those terms, but I certainly don't mind stating what I've done and letting people make their own minds up!



100% ITB mix. Yes, I tracked with a fair amount of outboard in a good room with great musos (actually - I didn't personally record a lot of this one, it was done on one of the 4 days I didn't work on this album, but it was tracked with all the sounds I set up). But that's not to say the mix was simple levelling.



Sure you'd hope if you were getting a recording to mix from a great production team, it'd be well recorded and with a fair amount of the direction committed too.

It can be the case, but the idea that top mix engineers ONLY get great tracking to deal with is a bit of a fallacy. I've seen some shocking examples of tracks given to great guys to mix, who turned them around!

Maybe the quality is better than your average local self-recordists, but likewise the limiting factor then is more likely the local mix engineer's abilities more than the absence of outboard!
sounds like a record to me.good job!
Old 13th April 2018
  #317
How did my thread become a long ass ITB vs OTB Discussion? lol
Old 13th April 2018
  #318
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibeenajro View Post
How did my thread become a long ass ITB vs OTB Discussion? lol
It ALWAYS does lol!
Old 14th April 2018
  #319
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
sounds like a record to me.good job!


adding @ psycho_monkey


indeed it does! (Sound like a record that is). I can definitely see where this type song would lend itself well to an ITB mix. Lots of dynamic changes in this tune. You probably did a lot of volume automation I'm guessing? Good job as RB said!
Old 14th April 2018
  #320
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

I asked this earlier, and it was never answered. If itb works for mixing and is comparable in quality, why do we need hardware for tracking?
Old 14th April 2018
  #321
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post

Maybe the quality is better than your average local self-recordists, but likewise the limiting factor then is more likely the local mix engineer's abilities more than the absence of outboard!

I wanted to comment on this because I have strong opinions on this particular matter. I hear what you're saying about the recordings not always being "great" when presented to A-list mixers. I think in general the submitted tracks tend to range from mediocre to great. But herein lies the key IMHE.

I think most A-list mixing dudes get to choose the material they work on and that usually is based on whether they feel the music or not. They can afford more often then not to turn down gigs they don't connect with. Only referring to A-list mix engineers right here.

In other words, they wouldn't take on the job unless the music had something to say, or at least some sort of potential to reach listeners. I think this makes ALL the difference in the world when mixing.

I will agree on this though...I have been part of a few productions from the other side of the glass, where the hired gun top tier mix guy took the material which was just OK (sounding) in the raw and turned it into a polished piece of pure gold. Quite a few times these were 100% ITB mixes too. It's kind of what made me continue exploring mixing completely ITB. I still have to do some reamping from time to time though.
Old 14th April 2018
  #322
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
I asked this earlier, and it was never answered. If itb works for mixing and is comparable in quality, why do we need hardware for tracking?
As opposed to tracking through plug ins?
yeah I do.need all the help I can get!
Old 14th April 2018
  #323
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
As opposed to tracking through gplug ins?
yeah I do.need all the help I can get!
As opposed to tracking through nothing but clean mic pres
Old 14th April 2018
  #324
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deuc647's Avatar
Tracking thru plug ins is whats making me get HDX, i used to have hd2 a long time ago and i really missed that feature, especially since if i wasnt happy ith it I could go back and adjust it since it really didnt print onto the audio, its just "laying over it" to say it so vaguely. I got plug in alliance plugs and they are AAX-DSP so its my motivation.
Old 14th April 2018
  #325
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
As opposed to tracking through nothing but clean mic pres
I think slate and antelope are starting the whole virtual studio thing.
So far every demo I heard including live @ namm (twice) left me feeling pretty meh.I’ll certainly keep my ears open to it in the future.
For now I’ll keep my vintage Neves and stuff.
Old 14th April 2018
  #326
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
I think slate and antelope are starting the whole virtual studio thing.
So far every demo I heard including live @ namm (twice) left me feeling pretty meh.I’ll certainly keep my ears open to it in the future.
For now I’ll keep my vintage Neves and stuff.
If ever you feel they've reached the point of it all being comparable, I'll give you whatever shiny thing Slate is selling in exchange for that old junk you don't need any more.lol.


That's where I think the itb vs otb argument breaks down. If I still need my hardware for tracking, because in a 1:1 comparison with audio going through it, I prefer it over plugins, why would I not prefer it at mix time?

I get that at mix time, I'm multing and adding distortion/compression/saturation etc. I also get that latency isn't as much of an issue when mixing as it is when tracking, but it sounds like I'm saying I prefer hardware in direct comparison.

Im not meaning to argue one over the other. I just think there are gains to be made in analyzing why we do things.

I think part of the why is $$$$ . If I can take steps to replace what I do in software, I can sell the hardware..

But, I can't sell it all because I need it for tracking.
Old 18th April 2018
  #327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
adding @ psycho_monkey


indeed it does! (Sound like a record that is). I can definitely see where this type song would lend itself well to an ITB mix. Lots of dynamic changes in this tune. You probably did a lot of volume automation I'm guessing? Good job as RB said!
Thanks!

I didn't really think about that to be honest - it's just how I mix! the album has some songs completely mixed ITB by me, the body of it mixed hybrid by Peter Katis, and some parts were an intro mixed by me bolted on to Katis' mix.

Yes lots of dynamic changes - and a few FX levels changing - but nothing too crazy that couldn't be handled on a console or hybrid. I'm happy with the "depth" overall, so if people say "ITB = 2D" I'm quite happy to say "only if you do it wrong"..!
Old 27th April 2018
  #328
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

I've been listening to some of the Zen Pro Clipalator Summing files. I haven't had a chance to listen in a decent environment, just headphones with my cellphone My house is being remodeled and all my gear is in storage), but

If summing itb vs a desk is not a fair comparison because you have to do something to the itb mix to make it comparable, shouldn't we be able to process the clipalator files itb and approximate what a certain summing box brings to the table?

Also, would there be any value in asking them for the session files and posting level matched files summed on different desks for comparison as well (I get that it would add other converters/DAWs into the mix and may kill the comparison.)
Old 8th April 2020
  #329
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
I've been listening to some of the Zen Pro Clipalator Summing files. I haven't had a chance to listen in a decent environment, just headphones with my cellphone My house is being remodeled and all my gear is in storage), but

If summing itb vs a desk is not a fair comparison because you have to do something to the itb mix to make it comparable, shouldn't we be able to process the clipalator files itb and approximate what a certain summing box brings to the table?

Also, would there be any value in asking them for the session files and posting level matched files summed on different desks for comparison as well (I get that it would add other converters/DAWs into the mix and may kill the comparison.)
can someone comment on the new BX SSL 9000J plugin please?
ITB vs desk please (love to hate ITB sound but who care when its on a mp3?)
Old 3 weeks ago
  #330
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckan View Post
can someone comment on the new BX SSL 9000J plugin please?
ITB vs desk please (love to hate ITB sound but who care when its on a mp3?)
BX SSL 4000EG/9000J sound very different, all three sound like records, like most people describe them, and the channels sound different as well.
EG sound older, and J modern and cleaner, I like the E the best because the equalizer has a kind of paper sound, but in a present way, but I think it has too much noise even when it’s turned down to a minimum, and J is a bit quieter so that can be an advantage.
All three muddle the sound and takes away the attention, which is desirable for most channels. They give you that muddled record or “glued” sound.
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