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SPL Madison
Old 19th May 2020
  #61
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Whatever that test in Didier's thread says, this converter sounds very noticeably different under different clocks. And noticeably bigger and better with a good one. Not that it sounds bad off its own either. But those numbers basically cannot capture reality. And no, I'm not tripping. lol. But I also don't give a hoot if anyone thinks I am.
Your definitely not tripping Karloff,

Honestly didn't expect to hear any noticeable difference whatsoever, so I stand corrected.

I just spent a good hour, and had a very long close listen to all my 4 SPL/RME clock files, closing my eyes and hitting the mute/ solo to make it a blind test.

I can hear a miniscule difference in how open the soundstage becomes/separation of instruments/ overall tone, depending on which clock is selected.

It's a cork-sniffing, anally retentive level of comparison, as they all sound really close.
Then again, every little bit counts when you're trying to improve at this level.

But...........My conclusion, which may differ from others, and feel free to do so is.......

In order of preference.....

1/ Clocked from the UFX+ A/D word clock Master
2/ Clocked from the Madi signal of the RME HDSPe PCIE Card Master (1 and 2 so close, can't tell sometimes)
3/ Clocked from word clock of the RME HDSPe PCIE Card Master
4/ Clocked from the SPL Madison word clock (3 and 4 so close, can't tell sometimes, and still sounds good)

I believe technically, from what I've read, you are supposed to clock from the Master of the A/D when using separate converters?

Your mileage may vary......
Old 19th May 2020
  #62
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

I have only compared clocking the Madison from itself, from an SSL Madixtreme card, from a Ross Martin PCM4222 and from a BLA Microclock II. Order of preference was 4222, BLA, Madison own clock, and last SSL card clock.

The 4222 made a difference that was VERY evident and not at all like cork sniffing, the BLA also makes a very worthwhile one, if not quite as good/open/big. Smooth and slick in a musical way though and definitely better than SPL on own steam.

But then I have very tightly set up one15's here to tell me about the changes.
Old 19th May 2020
  #63
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I have only compared clocking the Madison from itself, from an SSL Madixtreme card, from a Ross Martin PCM4222 and from a BLA Microclock II. Order of preference was 4222, BLA, Madison own clock, and last SSL card clock.

The 4222 made a difference that was VERY evident and not at all like cork sniffing, the BLA also makes a very worthwhile one, if not quite as good/open/big. Smooth and slick in a musical way though and definitely better than SPL on own steam.

But then I have very tightly set up one15's here to tell me about the changes.
Nice one Karloff, and good to know. Respect.

That was the audio file, using the SPL D/A into the PCM 4222 A/D, which convinced me to buy the SPL Madison. Truly amazing clarity top to bottom.

Ranked really high on the audio Diffmaker Test with expensive company.

So you can use the word clock Master from the Ross Martin PCM4222 to the Madison, then SPDIF/ AES back to your DAW? Already have a MADI PCIE, so would have to use the SPDIF Optical, or can that be used as MADI optical as well?

There's one for sale on Reverb right now for Aus$700 in the USA. I don't think they come up very often. Whats the voltage on the secondary of the power transformer?

Cheers
Old 19th May 2020
  #64
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I have only compared clocking the Madison from itself, from an SSL Madixtreme card, from a Ross Martin PCM4222 and from a BLA Microclock II. Order of preference was 4222, BLA, Madison own clock, and last SSL card clock.

The 4222 made a difference that was VERY evident and not at all like cork sniffing, the BLA also makes a very worthwhile one, if not quite as good/open/big. Smooth and slick in a musical way though and definitely better than SPL on own steam.

But then I have very tightly set up one15's here to tell me about the changes.
Ross Martin PCM 4222 on Reverb already sold. Bugger!
Old 19th May 2020
  #65
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

I just used the 4222 as master clock via word clock to run the Madison and the SSL card it is connected to. It sounded absolutely amazing, but sadly didn't stay stable, so I sold the 4222 again and am now running the BLA Microclock II. Also sounds great, and is rock solid. At some point am looking to get the newest BLA clock which has insanely tiny jitter numbers.
Old 19th May 2020
  #66
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I just used the 4222 as master clock via word clock to run the Madison and the SSL card it is connected to. It sounded absolutely amazing, but sadly didn't stay stable, so I sold the 4222 again and am now running the BLA Microclock II. Also sounds great, and is rock solid. At some point am looking to get the newest BLA clock which has insanely tiny jitter numbers.
Considering that the best sounding option also turned out to be the least reliable and that it sounds better on external clock, it seems quite likely that jitter makes it sound better, albeit most likely less accurate.
Old 19th May 2020
  #67
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetam View Post
Considering that the best sounding option also turned out to be the least reliable and that it sounds better on external clock, it seems quite likely that jitter makes it sound better, albeit most likely less accurate.
The 4222 having minuscule amounts of jitter I wouldn't assume that out of hand.
Old 19th May 2020
  #68
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
The 4222 having minuscule amounts of jitter I wouldn't assume that out of hand.
Just because the clock has low jitter spec, it doesn't mean that that WC signal reaches the slave's input intact. If it did, it should work reliably. I don't know how the PLL is implemented in the Madison, maybe it actually performs better on worse clock, but I can't imagine how a simple square wave could be good enough to provide a very high level of accuracy and at the same time bad enough that it causes sinchronisation problems. If you have a hypothesis, I'd be interested to know.
Old 19th May 2020
  #69
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetam View Post
Just because the clock has low jitter spec, it doesn't mean that that WC signal reaches the slave's input intact. If it did, it should work reliably. I don't know how the PLL is implemented in the Madison, maybe it actually performs better on worse clock, but I can't imagine how a simple square wave could be good enough to provide a very high level of accuracy and at the same time bad enough that it causes sinchronisation problems. If you have a hypothesis, I'd be interested to know.
My hypothesis is that the sync issues I had are nothing to do with the jitter performance of the clock in that machine and more to do with how well Ross assembles those machines.......but sure, a cable etc all come into the reality of the overall jitter performance result, and getting even a great clock signal into a slave machine does pose issues.

In the end I am in the camp of 'I don't need a rational explanation why a setup sounds better, if subjectively it massively does', so not that interested in the Dan Lavry style 'anything can only sound better on outside clock if its broken' type speel. Or the 'you might like it better, but technically it is worse' thing. It was insanely better when the 4222 synced happily.
Old 19th May 2020
  #70
Gear Maniac
 

Dan Lavry also builds great sounding converters with no compromising whatsoever. There are no 16 channel Lavry rack mount converters with a crap ton of parts closely crammed onto one board.

That’s a very good point about those measurements mostly being worthless due to detecting phase shifts. A high passed Lavry will still be better than any Behringer. An Aurora (N) is not 10 dB better than an SPL Madison. It just sounds cleaner, more transparent, and more reactive but costs 3x asmuch. A 10db lower difference does not explain the difference in stereo width, clarity, and punch over an already very good converter.

The Madison is still a great deal in Europe. 16 very good channels for 1500 euros. In the USA, it’s overpriced because 1500 dollars gets us the clearer MOTU 16a with no need for an additional expensive Madi interface and it doesn’t change as much when slaved to a unit with a better clock.
Old 19th May 2020
  #71
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
My hypothesis is that the sync issues I had are nothing to do with the jitter performance of the clock in that machine and more to do with how well Ross assembles those machines.......but sure, a cable etc all come into the reality of the overall jitter performance result, and getting even a great clock signal into a slave machine does pose issues.

In the end I am in the camp of 'I don't need a rational explanation why a setup sounds better, if subjectively it massively does', so not that interested in the Dan Lavry style 'anything can only sound better on outside clock if its broken' type speel. Or the 'you might like it better, but technically it is worse' thing. It was insanely better when the 4222 synced happily.
Well, if it sounds better, that's all that really matters. I like to understand why things are the way they are, though. The engineer part of being an audio engineer doesn't allow me to not bother with it, but I'm aware that not everyone has this desire. Thanks for sharing your experience and opinion.
Old 19th May 2020
  #72
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetam View Post
Well, if it sounds better, that's all that really matters. I like to understand why things are the way they are, though. The engineer part of being an audio engineer doesn't allow me to not bother with it, but I'm aware that not everyone has this desire. Thanks for sharing your experience and opinion.
Don't get me wrong, I also like understanding the technical side. But sometimes it becomes a choice between what seems to make sense in tech numbers and what the ears say, and if it differs I go with ears all day.
Old 19th May 2020
  #73
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by To Mega Therion View Post
Dan Lavry also builds great sounding converters with no compromising whatsoever. There are no 16 channel Lavry rack mount converters with a crap ton of parts closely crammed onto one board.

That’s a very good point about those measurements mostly being worthless due to detecting phase shifts. A high passed Lavry will still be better than any Behringer. An Aurora (N) is not 10 dB better than an SPL Madison. It just sounds cleaner, more transparent, and more reactive but costs 3x asmuch. A 10db lower difference does not explain the difference in stereo width, clarity, and punch over an already very good converter.

The Madison is still a great deal in Europe. 16 very good channels for 1500 euros. In the USA, it’s overpriced because 1500 dollars gets us the clearer MOTU 16a with no need for an additional expensive Madi interface and it doesn’t change as much when slaved to a unit with a better clock.
Well, when I bought the Madison I actually tried the 16A next to it and found although it sounded slightly bigger it didn't sound musically useful to me whereas the Madison did, so I went with the Madison. Never regretted it.
Old 19th May 2020
  #74
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by To Mega Therion View Post
Dan Lavry also builds great sounding converters with no compromising whatsoever. There are no 16 channel Lavry rack mount converters with a crap ton of parts closely crammed onto one board.

That’s a very good point about those measurements mostly being worthless due to detecting phase shifts. A high passed Lavry will still be better than any Behringer. An Aurora (N) is not 10 dB better than an SPL Madison. It just sounds cleaner, more transparent, and more reactive but costs 3x asmuch. A 10db lower difference does not explain the difference in stereo width, clarity, and punch over an already very good converter.

The Madison is still a great deal in Europe. 16 very good channels for 1500 euros. In the USA, it’s overpriced because 1500 dollars gets us the clearer MOTU 16a with no need for an additional expensive Madi interface and it doesn’t change as much when slaved to a unit with a better clock.
Yes, MOTU's AVB line is definitely worth considering. Even in Europe, it's a bit cheaper than the Madison.
The "expensive MADI" thing was actually one of the main reasons why I choose the Madison. RME HDSPe MADI and HDSPe MADI FX are top notch in terms of stable drivers, low latency, synchronisation options (especially if you add the TCO card), ASIO direct monitoring support ...
AFAIK there is no comparable AVB interface.
Madison can also outout +24 dBu while the MOTU is limited to +20 dBu.
For what I do, the Madison / HDSPe MADI combo is perfect, the only thing I'm missing is a few more channels which means that I'll probably get another Madison soon. In some other applications, MOTU would certainly have an advantage.
Old 22nd May 2020
  #75
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Well, when I bought the Madison I actually tried the 16A next to it and found although it sounded slightly bigger it didn't sound musically useful to me whereas the Madison did, so I went with the Madison. Never regretted it.
Nice to read an end user description. Was this comparison ITB or OTB?
Old 22nd May 2020
  #76
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantumphysics View Post
Nice to read an end user description. Was this comparison ITB or OTB?
ITB. And obviously highly subjective. At the time I had people calling me names for preferring the Madison to the better measuring Motu. lol
Old 16th June 2020
  #77
Gear Maniac
 

Is there a difference is sound quality between the SPL Crimson 3 and Madison?
Old 16th June 2020
  #78
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funka's Avatar
 

Just looking at the specs, they should not.
The power rails are not the same, close(34V against 36V), but different.
Maybe you could directly ask SPL if their A/D D/A design is the same or different from the Madison. If the power supply is different, it will surely be different in the end...
Old 17th June 2020
  #79
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pentagon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarkeys View Post
Is there a difference is sound quality between the SPL Crimson 3 and Madison?
Yes. Madison is much better.
Even the most basic specs listed on SPL's website show that.
Old 17th June 2020
  #80
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
Yes. Madison is much better.
Even the most basic specs listed on SPL's website show that.
Have you HEARD them both, or just read the specs?
Old 17th June 2020
  #81
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pentagon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
Have you HEARD them both, or just read the specs?
Madison for years. It's the main converter for one studio I'm in all the time. They sit on the end of Avid HD MADI boxes to be the Pro Tools system's converters.

Original Crimson yes. Crimson 3 no but there isn't supposed to have been any change in conversion. It's a cheap and cheerful interface that rates about as well or top for its class. I even recommended a Crimson 3 (and it was bought) for a world-class touring musician who needed something like that.

And the question was "Is there a difference in sound quality between the SPL Crimson 3 and Madison?"
If the figure are different, then it obviously has a difference.
Old 17th June 2020
  #82
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
Madison for years. It's the main converter for one studio I'm in all the time. They sit on the end of Avid HD MADI boxes to be the Pro Tools system's converters.

Original Crimson yes. Crimson 3 no but there isn't supposed to have been any change in conversion. It's a cheap and cheerful interface that rates about as well or top for its class. I even recommended a Crimson 3 (and it was bought) for a world-class touring musician who needed something like that.

And the question was "Is there a difference in sound quality between the SPL Crimson 3 and Madison?"
If the figure are different, then it obviously has a difference.
Thanks. I keep thinking about the Madison stuff if I have to replace my converters when upgrade time comes for my computer. I know SPL in general is high quality stuff, and have liked what I've used. I had a Vitalizer and have used the desser and one of the compressors when I sold gear.
Old 19th July 2020
  #83
Gear Maniac
 

SPL had emailed me that the converters in the Crimson 3 and Madison are the same. I guess its not a huge deal I'm just curious if they produce the same sonic results....
Old 7th August 2020
  #84
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PeteJames's Avatar
Any thoughts on the Ferrofish converters vs Madison or UFX+? I'm debating getting the A32 and Madiface Pro or 2x Madison and Madiface Pro over the UFX+ (even though USB3 and TB2 would have been nice). Everyone seems to love the Madison on here - it will cost me about £800 extra for the Madison over Ferrofish.
Old 8th August 2020
  #85
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteJames View Post
Any thoughts on the Ferrofish converters vs Madison or UFX+? I'm debating getting the A32 and Madiface Pro or 2x Madison and Madiface Pro over the UFX+ (even though USB3 and TB2 would have been nice). Everyone seems to love the Madison on here - it will cost me about £800 extra for the Madison over Ferrofish. I won't be able to test or demo any of them so it's just a guess and recommendations i'm going on.
I could point you in the direction of a loop back test on Gearslutz where you could download the same recorded audio file of a symphony orchestra for comparison, from all 3 converters, rather than be biased from Madison/ UFX+ owners like myself.

Problem is if you're listening and comparing them through a converter that's not as good or better, it reduces your ability to be as objective in what sounds better.

If you have decent headphones, I guess it's better than nothing.

Evaluating AD/DA loops by means of Audio Diffmaker
Old 8th August 2020
  #86
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PeteJames's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulthesparky View Post
I could point you in the direction of a loop back test on Gearslutz where you could download the same recorded audio file of a symphony orchestra for comparison, from all 3 converters, rather than be biased from Madison/ UFX+ owners like myself.

Problem is if you're listening and comparing them through a converter that's not as good or better, it reduces your ability to be as objective in what sounds better.

If you have decent headphones, I guess it's better than nothing.

Evaluating AD/DA loops by means of Audio Diffmaker
I tried with my M50X and my DT880 but I'm not able to discern any meaningful difference really. There are small times when I think I hear something but then nothing. My laptop isn't really good enough to drive my DT880s anyway so I mostly relied on my M50X. Is it the kind of thing you just have to 'feel' and go with your 'gut' instead of trying to analyse? Perhaps i'd only be able to tell by trying them or perhaps I'd never notice the difference either way really. The SPL gets such good press on here even competing with the really high end stuff so i'm inclined to get that just on recommendation. It's £800 extra based on a guess though.
Old 9th August 2020
  #87
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteJames View Post
I tried with my M50X and my DT880 but I'm not able to discern any meaningful difference really. There are small times when I think I hear something but then nothing. My laptop isn't really good enough to drive my DT880s anyway so I mostly relied on my M50X. Is it the kind of thing you just have to 'feel' and go with your 'gut' instead of trying to analyse? Perhaps i'd only be able to tell by trying them or perhaps I'd never notice the difference either way really. The SPL gets such good press on here even competing with the really high end stuff so i'm inclined to get that just on recommendation. It's £800 extra based on a guess though.
Pity you're not in Australia, as I know a Melbourne dealer whom I recently bought mine from, who has/had? another demo model on sale for Aus$1200. Could be gone by now though.

You wont hear much difference with a laptop/headphones. At the end of the day most modern digital converters have less than 1% THD, compared to loudspeakers/ monitors which can have anywhere up to 10% THD. Save your 800 pound and invest in semi decent monitors, makes more sense if money is tight and it's just a hobby?

Dante will be the go to in the future, and Madi is getting dropped by companies like Lynx on the Aurora (n). The RME UFX+ D/A doesn't sound quite as big and exciting as the Madison, but the A/D is fairly similar IMO. UFX+ has got a lot more extra comms features, like Thunderbolt/AES/USB/Midi etc, so a lot easier to sell down the road.

The Madison is missing headphone outputs and the power switch is at the rear which is a PITA. I need to rely on totalmix software to control the volume, so inevitably get the occasional blast if I'm not careful. But 16 high quality A/D/D/A Channels for what I paid, is an absolute steal.

I cant comment on the Ferrofish, but if the Gearslutz Loop back test results are anything to go by, it didn't rate as high as the SPL/UFX+, but I'm sure it's still fine in this day and age.
Old 9th August 2020
  #88
The DA on the Madison is it's speciality. The AD not so much.

I haven't heard them myself, but read enough (in comparison in a whole host of others converters) to get a good feel. And based on that the DA is way out in front of the Ferrorish in terms of transparancy.
Old 9th August 2020
  #89
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PeteJames's Avatar
With all the statistics on that thread I really don't have any idea what i'm looking, what it mean in real terms, and if those differences are minute or big.

Does 1% THD mean there is less than 1% difference between all of these converters?

I'm making a whole new studio setup. I have the money to spend but I don't want to go crazy if it's not going to make a real difference. I have a pair of Focal CMS65s I thought a decade ago and a pair of Dynaudio BM15As that I never really used.

I recently got a Soundcraft GB2 analog mixer to try out but i'm not sure if it's going to affect my signal in a negative way. I urgently need to get some kind of interface/converter as my old ones are firewire and I no longer use that. I've currently got no means of recording anything. I'm kind of a bit stuck with whether to go for converters and a madiface with an live sound analog mixer - the converters and madiface with an ITB mixing controller - or get digital mixer and forget the converters. I wanted an analog mixer for having fun and tweaking things live and keeping things simple with knob per function, easy hands on control for effects sends, EQ, levels, gain etc. I can't really try out my analog mixer without getting some converters and an interface though.

I know Dante is the hot new thing but from what I got told it require a bit of setting up, will offer me no real benefits over MADI, and costs a lot more. Isn't it also manufacturer specific so not open source?

My music is mostly just an expensive hobby really. I spent several years away from it but it always pulls me back in. I've decided I don't enjoy producing entirely in the box so i'm focusing more on live studio jamming with synths and drum machines. Just to do what I enjoy and record it all and see if I want to make anything from it or just use the live jam itself to try and get some gigs. I'm more of a techno / electronica guy. I've come to realise my chances of making any money out of music are almost zero so it's more about having fun and enjoying myself rather than any other goal.

Having said that i'd rather have something excellent than something just ok - so if i'm really going to enjoy the sound muc better from the SPL i'd rather get that and not buy twice.

Once I get all my gear and organise my room i'll start working on acoustic treatment as i've never had any before.

Last edited by PeteJames; 9th August 2020 at 01:03 PM..
Old 9th August 2020
  #90
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteJames View Post
With all the statistics on that thread I really don't have any idea what i'm looking, what it mean in real terms, and if those differences are minute or big.

Does 1% THD mean there is less than 1% difference between all of these converters?

I'm making a whole new studio setup. I have the money to spend but I don't want to go crazy if it's not going to make a real difference. I have a pair of Focal CMS65s I thought a decade ago and a pair of Dynaudio BM15As that I never really used.

I recently got a Soundcraft GB2 analog mixer to try out but i'm not sure if it's going to affect my signal in a negative way. I urgently need to get some kind of interface/converter as my old ones are firewire and I no longer use that. I've currently got no means of recording anything. I'm kind of a bit stuck with whether to go for converters and a madiface with an live sound analog mixer - the converters and madiface with an ITB mixing controller - or get digital mixer and forget the converters. I wanted an analog mixer for having fun and tweaking things live and keeping things simple with knob per function, easy hands on control for effects sends, EQ, levels, gain etc. I can't really try out my analog mixer without getting some converters and an interface though.

I know Dante is the hot new thing but from what I got told it require a bit of setting up, will offer me no real benefits over MADI, and costs a lot more. Isn't it also manufacturer specific so not open source?

My music is mostly just an expensive hobby really. I spent several years away from it but it always pulls me back in. I've decided I don't enjoy producing entirely in the box so i'm focusing more on live studio jamming with synths and drum machines. Just to do what I enjoy and record it all and see if I want to make anything from it or just use the live jam itself to try and get some gigs. I'm more of a techno / electronica guy. I've come to realise my chances of making any money out of music are almost zero so it's more about having fun and enjoying myself rather than any other goal.

Having said that i'd rather have something excellent than something just ok - so if i'm really going to enjoy the sound muc better from the SPL i'd rather get that and not buy twice.

Once I get all my gear and organise my room i'll start working on acoustic treatment as i've never had any before.
I hear what you're saying, it's a big decision knowing which way to go.

I'm not trying to say their is a 1% difference between modern digital converters, although the gap has definitely closed between the mid priced and high end compared to 20 years ago. The analog pathway has to be also taken into account as well.

The point I was trying to make with the 1% vs 10% THD, is if you have low to average analog quality monitors, you could have 10 times more THD, which makes the benefit of super, squeaky clean conversion almost irrelevant, whilst mixing/ mastering, especially in an untreated room.

If your old converters have firewire, you can still easily use a firewire to thunderbolt adapter if your computer has a thunderbolt connection. Firewire is still quite capable of fairly high channel count at say 48K sample rate, despite being outdated tech.

If you're tracking/ recording sythn's and drum machines, I'd be inclined to pick the A/D/D/A that can handle the bottom end of say 808's. This is where some digital conversion seems to struggle compared to analog. Probably out of your price range, but the Lynx converters apparently seem to do it better than most, from what I've heard. Maybe look at a used Aurora. Motu Converters as another option in the mid tier price range, also getting good reviews of late.

Sort of wish I went AES rather than MADI, to be honest, as there are more Converter options. Happy enough for now with the RME A/D and SPL D/A.
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