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DM2000's....why are these so cheap on the used market? Reverb/Delay Processors (HW)
Old 22nd March 2017
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

DM2000's....why are these so cheap on the used market?

So I guess while this console starts out as a higher end item, they seem to depreciate more into the low end....there has been discussion of these here so I thought I would post this.

Anyway, I know the current version DM2000VCM starts around $20k and with a set of cards can run $25k or so at MSRP.

I suppose they are discounted a bit but it is not unusual to see these on the used market in the $3k to $4k range, and many of those are outfitted with a set of useful cards.

AFAIK the newer version includes a lot more software plugin functionality but if you were going to use software plugins in your recording app, or outboard maybe not that big of a deal?

I am thinking about caving and selling off my old analog console and going digital but the lower end stuff does not have the feature set (analog inputs and inserts) I would like to interface with my outboard. Rightfully so these newer lower end things (like the Midas) are designed to be a one stop solution and probably work well for that, but I want something to use with outboard as well.

Is there some big downside to older DM2000's I am unaware of or is it just the fact they sold a lot of these to corporate and industrial clients who have money and frequently cycle through their gear?

Seems like a killer unit for how cheap they go, so I ask is there a downside I am missing?

Thanks!

Analogeezer
Old 22nd March 2017
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Silvertone's Avatar
It certainly wouldn't be the sound. I have several clients that have these boards and their mixes sound great. A few very high end mixing engineers I know have these in their own rooms. They are more than happy with them. They even tell me the mic pre's are more than usable.

I just don't think digital anything holds its value. They are always making better, faster, cheaper digital. Only high end analog seems to hold value. Hi end vintage always goes up because it gets more scarce with time.

Bang for the buck on the used market those consoles are hard to beat for the price IMHO.
Old 22nd March 2017
  #3
Lives for gear
 
jude's Avatar
 

So, would you say picking up one, with a bunch of ADAT cards for $3k AUD would be a good investment?
Old 23rd March 2017
  #4
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jude View Post
investment?
???
Use it. Yes.
Investment. No. It's not going to appreciate in value or even stay the same. It will continue to decline.
Old 23rd March 2017
  #5
Lives for gear
 
jude's Avatar
 

Yes, good point. Time to stroke my chin a bit more before I spend any money.
Old 23rd March 2017
  #6
I have a Yamaha DM1000 and two 02R96 consoles we use for fly-pack location recording. I've also used the DM2000 for various gigs. I also have a 50 channel Neotek Elite analog console in our larger audio truck.

Our fly-pack gigs are an audio compromise for concerts where we can't use a truck. The Yamaha consoles are used for monitoring and live mixes for radio and webcasts.

We use Presonus mic pre-amps straight to digital recorders via Lightpipe. The output of the digital recorders are fed to the Yamaha consoles via Lightpipe into MY16AT 16-channel ADAT I/O cards. Everything is clocked with Apogee Big Bens. I've used the Presonus pre-amps with our analog consoles in the trucks. They sound fine. I've never used the internal mic pre-amps in the Yamahas.

The Yamaha consoles are extremely reliable and flexible. They have features for studio work that more modern digital consoles (designed for sound reinforcement only) don't have. The optional cards offer a wide variety of audio solutions.

I've used these consoles on cruise ships, funky club gigs, and large 112 input rock/orchestra concerts. They have always worked in challenging situations.

However, there is no MOJO with these consoles. The standard EQ and compression are not musical. I like outboard Yamaha effects like the SPX-90/900/990 and SPX-2000, but for some reason the internal reverbs in these desks aren't as good.

Every time I'm mixing on the Yamahas, I long for my Neotek Elite. This may not be logical, but I sometimes feel that the digital desks sound a bit "constrained" when all channels/effects are being used.

In one of my 02R96 desks, I have a Waves Y56K card. It has Waves compression, EQ and reverb in any combination of 8 mono or 4 stereo patches. That card really helps upgrade the sound of the console. There's a newer Y96K card, but I haven't used it yet.

I don't have any of the newer Yamaha plug-ins. These may help the sound of the consoles.

The only technical issue I've seen is that the display screen may need to be replaced. It can lose it's contrast over time.

You didn't mention what kind of analog console you have now. If it's something mid-level or higher, you may be disappointed with the Yamaha console. On the other hand, you can get a DM2000 for such a low investment that it might be worth the experiment for your situation.
Old 25th March 2017
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Powell View Post
I have a Yamaha DM1000 and two 02R96 consoles we use for fly-pack location recording. I've also used the DM2000 for various gigs. I also have a 50 channel Neotek Elite analog console in our larger audio truck.

Our fly-pack gigs are an audio compromise for concerts where we can't use a truck. The Yamaha consoles are used for monitoring and live mixes for radio and webcasts.

We use Presonus mic pre-amps straight to digital recorders via Lightpipe. The output of the digital recorders are fed to the Yamaha consoles via Lightpipe into MY16AT 16-channel ADAT I/O cards. Everything is clocked with Apogee Big Bens. I've used the Presonus pre-amps with our analog consoles in the trucks. They sound fine. I've never used the internal mic pre-amps in the Yamahas.

The Yamaha consoles are extremely reliable and flexible. They have features for studio work that more modern digital consoles (designed for sound reinforcement only) don't have. The optional cards offer a wide variety of audio solutions.

I've used these consoles on cruise ships, funky club gigs, and large 112 input rock/orchestra concerts. They have always worked in challenging situations.

However, there is no MOJO with these consoles. The standard EQ and compression are not musical. I like outboard Yamaha effects like the SPX-90/900/990 and SPX-2000, but for some reason the internal reverbs in these desks aren't as good.

Every time I'm mixing on the Yamahas, I long for my Neotek Elite. This may not be logical, but I sometimes feel that the digital desks sound a bit "constrained" when all channels/effects are being used.

In one of my 02R96 desks, I have a Waves Y56K card. It has Waves compression, EQ and reverb in any combination of 8 mono or 4 stereo patches. That card really helps upgrade the sound of the console. There's a newer Y96K card, but I haven't used it yet.

I don't have any of the newer Yamaha plug-ins. These may help the sound of the consoles.

The only technical issue I've seen is that the display screen may need to be replaced. It can lose it's contrast over time.

You didn't mention what kind of analog console you have now. If it's something mid-level or higher, you may be disappointed with the Yamaha console. On the other hand, you can get a DM2000 for such a low investment that it might be worth the experiment for your situation.
Thanks for your very thorough and helpful reply, funny you should mention the Yamaha outboard F/X, one of my units is a SPX990, great unit.

Also - I have some seat time with the DM1000 a friend owns one and I have run sound for his band a few times, so I understand the Yamaha layout a bit.

The analog console I am using right now is an Allen and Heath Saber Plus, 40 channel (into 16), with the LED meters. I really like it (I have owned it about 10 years now but did not actually install it until 7 years ago).

The mute automation has failed again, making the console pretty much unusable at the moment, also the right channel of the alternate monitor outputs is not working....both of these things I had fixed about 5 years ago so very annoying (the failure mode of the mute automation is different this time though).

It needs a lot of the faders replaced as well, so I am trying to decide if I want to dump a bunch of money into a 25 year old console, it's not like it's an API or something.

My recording setup is an old purpose built studio computer but it still works great for me, interfaces are a 2408 Mk III and a 24 i/o so I run 32 outs into the console for mixing. I also have two of the older UAD-1 cards and a lot of plugs but at some point when I upgrade the computer I need to upgrade the UAD hardware, an expensive proposition.

My outboard dynamics are modest, Drawer DL241, two RNC's, an old Symetrix 501 (the one with the Valley People VCA), Focusrite Compounder, Aphex Compellor, Pro VLA, and an old Tascam four channel, four band parametric EQ (it's actually quite cool, why I have held on to it).

Outboard effects collection is pretty cool, a Super Prime Time (totally recapped and gone over), Eventide H3000S (upgraded to SE specs), M3000, PCM81, Sony DPS-V77, the SPX990, a Lexicon Vortex and Line 6 Echo Pro and Mod Pros.

I don't really need mic pres, I have that totally covered with some great stuff (Hardy M-1, Great River MP-2NV, True Precision P2, a pair of Calrec modules, and I use an 8 channel Presonus Digimax LT for toms).

So what I need out of a console is a lot of inputs, the ability to use my outboard FX and dynamics (analog aux outs, returns, and inserts).

What led me to the DM2000 (besides the price and availability) is if you load it up with the right set of cards you can run a lot into it, yet is has a lot of analog I/O stock.

Inserts are assignable on this thing, right? So for a given channel you could have outboard patched to that insert assigned to any of the layers right? If so man that would be perfect.

Other options I might go for would be the Audient ASP 8024, but that would make me have to cut down my channel output count some.

Toft ATB-32 is another one but I get the feeling this is more like a modern rendition of the old Mackie 8 bus, actually if you consider the price and inflate the price of a Mackie 32 channel 8 bus from 1995 it pretty much matches the price of the Toft. They seem to be pretty solid but I do wonder how they fare 10 - 15 years out.

Lots of choices in digital consoles out there but they seem to be more biased for live work and most tout themselves as self contained - I realize this is a feature that people want but being stuck with their plugins and effects is a bit limited, something about the mojo of old FX outboard just appeals to me so I want to keep using it.

I'm still kind of tire kicking at the moment but the DM2000 is very professional, well built and has the kind of support you won't get with prosumer style gear.

Not surprised the LCD's need replacing that seems to be pretty universal and Yamaha will be a lot better about that in years hence than say Behringer/Midas would be.

Thanks for the info, much appreciated!

Analogeezer
Old 26th March 2017
  #8
Given your situation, the DM2000 might be an affordable option, especially with the plug-ins in your computer rig and your great collection of outboard gear.

There are two different inserts on the console. There are hard-wired inserts on each analog input only, either mic or line. There are also internal inserts on the input channels, group masters, and stereo bus. To patch analog outboard gear for an internal insert, you'll need to use an analog input and output.

I've never used my Yamaha consoles with automation, MIDI, or as a Pro Tools control surface, so i can't help you with that.

In my world, the optional meter bridge is essential.

Since the DM2000 is still a current model, the console won't be "orphaned" for a long time.

Good luck with your project!
Old 26th March 2017
  #9
Gear Head
 

not so sure about the console not being orphaned any time soon.....

I wanted to find/but the Yamaha ad on effects to my V2 Dm2000, and so far I have been unsuccessful.

I contacted Yamaha, and they said contact our dealers. I have contacted a few dealers, and they all say the product is discontinued.

So the only way to upgrade my V2 to VCM status is on the secondhand market, and it look as if no one is selling.

Thanks Yamaha.
Old 26th March 2017
  #10
Oops! I stand corrected. It's the Yamaha 02R96VCM that's still a current model.
Old 27th March 2017
  #11
Gear Addict
 
MrChick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlackWolf View Post
not so sure about the console not being orphaned any time soon.....

I wanted to find/but the Yamaha ad on effects to my V2 Dm2000, and so far I have been unsuccessful.

I contacted Yamaha, and they said contact our dealers. I have contacted a few dealers, and they all say the product is discontinued.

So the only way to upgrade my V2 to VCM status is on the secondhand market, and it look as if no one is selling.

Thanks Yamaha.
I've tried the upgrade to VCM too. If there is anyone who knows how to do it, please share it with us.
Old 27th March 2017
  #12
Yeah, just look here at the bottom of the page. They range from 2,000-4,500.
The custom hard shell, the mammoth padded road case on huge casters, the meter bridge, 2 lamps, and the 4 expansion cards, that came with my purchase would have cost new what I paid for all of that AND the Dm2000- craziness. I shipped it to a Yamaha repair center in CA, had all new faders put in, and their VCM mod plug-ins and still with the round-trip shipping, I have spent a total of $5,600 for everything. More & more people are getting away from consoles. Plug-ins have improved dramatically, and computers have plenty of power to do audio. The DM2000 is an excellent routing and monitoring console, not very good for tracking, and the EQ and compressor sucks IMO.
Old 27th March 2017
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlackWolf View Post
not so sure about the console not being orphaned any time soon.....

I wanted to find/but the Yamaha ad on effects to my V2 Dm2000, and so far I have been unsuccessful.

I contacted Yamaha, and they said contact our dealers. I have contacted a few dealers, and they all say the product is discontinued.

So the only way to upgrade my V2 to VCM status is on the secondhand market, and it look as if no one is selling.

Thanks Yamaha.
I just got the VCM reverb plug-in installed in my V2. But I was having the console fitted with new faders ( because I got the console so cheap) so it was at the repair-center anyway. My point being, I dont know if this is something you can install on your own, so it may not bet worth the expensive shipment. But they ARE installing it. Its expensive, BTW - $500 just for the one plug-in.
Old 30th March 2017
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
SonicAxiom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogeezer View Post
So I guess while this console starts out as a higher end item, they seem to depreciate more into the low end....there has been discussion of these here so I thought I would post this.

Anyway, I know the current version DM2000VCM starts around $20k and with a set of cards can run $25k or so at MSRP.

I suppose they are discounted a bit but it is not unusual to see these on the used market in the $3k to $4k range, and many of those are outfitted with a set of useful cards.

AFAIK the newer version includes a lot more software plugin functionality but if you were going to use software plugins in your recording app, or outboard maybe not that big of a deal?

I am thinking about caving and selling off my old analog console and going digital but the lower end stuff does not have the feature set (analog inputs and inserts) I would like to interface with my outboard. Rightfully so these newer lower end things (like the Midas) are designed to be a one stop solution and probably work well for that, but I want something to use with outboard as well.

Is there some big downside to older DM2000's I am unaware of or is it just the fact they sold a lot of these to corporate and industrial clients who have money and frequently cycle through their gear?

Seems like a killer unit for how cheap they go, so I ask is there a downside I am missing?

Thanks!

Analogeezer

What are you going to use the console for exactly? If you are recording into a DAW and want to easily interface analog gear - kinda hybrid setup - you might alternatively considering a setup similar to mine:

My setup is hybrid. I have a bunch of 500 series modules (pres, comps, eqs) and also 19" gear (BAE 1084's, MC77's, ADL 1500, SSL Sigma summing engine), a Yamaha DM1000 fitted with two Dante-MY16 AUD cards (thus 32 channels to interface the console to a Dante network), a Windows desktop pc (Win7 x64) holding a Yamaha AIC128-D Dante PCIe card and running Reaper, an RME Babyface and finally the brandnew Ferrofish A32 Dante converter (32 analog in/outs, 32 ADAT i/o, 64 MADI i/o, 64 Dante i/o; internal routing matrix to send any format to any other format in blocks of 8 channels).

I've never had a setup coming even close to this current environment in terms of flexibility and expandability! The Dante network allows routing any signal originating from the analog frontend to the Yamaha console (for latency-free cue mixes) and to Reaper simultaneously (via the Yamaha Dante PCIe card. This includes not only the 32 analog input signals of the A32 but also the signals coming from the Babyface into the A32 via ADAT (providing browser audio, media player audio to make A/B reference comparisons with my mixes, Melodyne audio).

As all devices are either directly or indirectly interconnected via the Dante network (thanks to the A32's analog and ADAT to Dante bridging capabilities) all devices discover each other with all of their ins and outs and I can route audio anywhere. The huge in/out capacities of the AIC128-D card leave enough spare in/outs to integrate a client's pc/mac running Dante Virtual Soundcard at full 64 channels into my studio network. He can simply mix directly form his own pc/mac/daw into my analog SSL summing engine and also into the analog outboard gear while using all of his usual plugins and VSTi's that I don't even have. No need to export/convert his project and transfer it into my studio computer. This is what I call "plug-and-mix!! All this is so easily accomplished by routing the desired audio channels with a few mouse clicks in Dante Controller.

In your case, you might even get away with no console at all, just the Ferrofish A32 Dante and the Yamaha AIC128-D Dante PCIe card as the latter can be run at under 6 ms of latency on a recent pc and provide near zero-latency monitoring. And of course, you can easily add up to four 8-channel ADAT A/D-converters or a MADI converter to the A32 or add more A32 Dante's if you need more i/o's.

I'll never have anything like a USB, Firewire or Thunderbolt interface (all being only point-to-point) in my studio!! Dante rules big time!!!
Attached Thumbnails
DM2000's....why are these so cheap on the used market?-ferrofish-a32-dante-3.jpg   DM2000's....why are these so cheap on the used market?-ferrofish-a32-dante-2.jpg  

Last edited by SonicAxiom; 30th March 2017 at 02:51 AM..
Old 30th March 2017
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogeezer View Post

Toft ATB-32 is another one but I get the feeling this is more like a modern rendition of the old Mackie 8 bus, actually if you consider the price and inflate the price of a Mackie 32 channel 8 bus from 1995 it pretty much matches the price of the Toft.
Not really and you cannot compare the two technically or economically. The Mackie 8 bus was made in the USA, using US labor. If the Toft were made in the USA using US labor, it would cost a lot more. They couldn't be further apart technically. The 8 bus had a monolithic PC board. The Toft has individual strips. Then there is sound. The Mackie was not that good sounding really. It was just a bunch of channels for cheap (for that period).
Old 2nd April 2017
  #16
Gear Nut
We had a dm1000 we bought from a studio . It lasted 1 month and went dead as the dodo. Anyone want a parts mixer?
Old 2nd April 2017
  #17
Lives for gear
 
MIKEHARRIS's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlackWolf View Post
not so sure about the console not being orphaned any time soon.....

I wanted to find/but the Yamaha ad on effects to my V2 Dm2000, and so far I have been unsuccessful.

I contacted Yamaha, and they said contact our dealers. I have contacted a few dealers, and they all say the product is discontinued.

So the only way to upgrade my V2 to VCM status is on the secondhand market, and it look as if no one is selling.

Thanks Yamaha.
We may still have some of the software packs...which are you looking for ?
Old 2nd April 2017
  #18
Gear Head
 

Hi Mike Harris-

I am interested in them all, what do you have?

PM me or email me directly at [email protected]?

thx
Old 1 week ago
  #19
Here for the gear
 

I would be into talking about the DM2000v2 and remote control of a Mackie HDR if you know any of the setup, and midi control. Deancat

Last edited by deancat; 1 week ago at 09:20 AM.. Reason: added content
Old 1 week ago
  #20
Lives for gear
 

The take away from the above dated thread is that you can get some decent digital gear at a very low price because of digital’s huge depreciation rate. Just this last month I picked up a Yamaha PM1D system for a very good price. I’ve got intentions to make two systems out of it given I’ve had extra modules for it for some time. This system was / maybe still is Yamaha’s top dog and a basic system started at 110k. Today you are looking at a depreciated used price of 10% of that. Given it’s got their best mic pres and converters which are remotely controlled I can see many ways it could be used in a studio to get high end with a low end budget.
Old 1 week ago
  #21
Gear Addict
 
loji's Avatar
I did some very large Bway touring shows on a PM1D .... that is a serious Console!
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