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close mic acoustic guitar options?
Old 11th January 2017
  #1
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close mic acoustic guitar options?

Of the following mics, which would make for a better pair to close mic acoustic guitar?

Josephson e22S
Gefell M 295
Peluso P-28
Schoeps CMC6 MK4
Schoeps CMC6 MK22
Telefunken ELA M 260
Old 11th January 2017
  #2
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I only record solo fingerstyle acoustic and classical guitar. I've owned all the mics on your list with the exception of the Josephson e22S (although I have owned pairs of the older Josephson Series 6 SD mics).

Hands down the Gefell M295 is the better mic pair for close micing from your list.
Old 11th January 2017
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
I only record solo fingerstyle acoustic and classical guitar. I've owned all the mics on your list with the exception of the Josephson e22S (although I have owned pairs of the older Josephson Series 6 SD mics).

Hands down the Gefell M295 is the better mic pair for close micing from your list.
I was hoping someone would reply who had experience with at least a few on the list. Thanks. If you feel like elaborating, I'd be very interested in hearing why you prefer the Gefell.
Old 11th January 2017
  #4
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is the 295 the cardioid with the lf rolloff? if so then I would tend to agree that would be a great option. schoeps mk4 is very good for roughly 16" out and further, and the mk22 is stunning for very close. I am a schoeps guy so my vote is for the mk22....
Old 11th January 2017
  #5
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NathanEldred's Avatar
On that list definitely the Schoeps mk22. Beautiful natural sound and very little proximity effect. I like it better than the 295. The 295 is nice but quite bright (but smooth) to my ears. E22s is a great mic, one of my all time favortie, but to my ears the proximity is prononounced especially at very close range to an acoustic. It sounds great on a snare or tom close up for this reason.
Old 11th January 2017
  #6
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Close distances mean different things to different engineers I think. To me, close means 12" or under, where cardioid patterns create trouble in my hands unless I place in such a way that LF are inherently reduced. I think classical recording engineers, working in good rooms, might consider 24", or even more than 24", close, where proximity concerns are a lot lower.

John Caldwell
Old 12th January 2017
  #7
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Originally Posted by john caldwell View Post
Close distances mean different things to different engineers I think. To me, close means 12" or under, where cardioid patterns create trouble in my hands unless I place in such a way that LF are inherently reduced. I think classical recording engineers, working in good rooms, might consider 24", or even more than 24", close, where proximity concerns are a lot lower.

John Caldwell
That's a good point. I'm talking close enough to record light fingerpicking, so probably around 12 inches, give or take a few.
Old 12th January 2017
  #8
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I'd go with the Gefell, also. I use the MV691/M70's, which I understand the M295 is descended from. There's a beautiful sparkle that comes without high end hype. Overall, it's a really flat mic. I don't record flattop super close. It just sound unnatural to me. 12-24" is a good range for the Gefell on flattop.
Old 12th January 2017
  #9
Josephson e22s
because its most pliable for any instrument. It isn't a set and forget option but its very easy to make it work on any part or player. My 2 cents.
Old 12th January 2017
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTC111 View Post
Of the following mics, which would make for a better pair to close mic acoustic guitar?

Josephson e22S
Gefell M 295
Peluso P-28
Schoeps CMC6 MK4
Schoeps CMC6 MK22
Telefunken ELA M 260
Schoeps also have you considered if you are close mic'ing and the room is nice using an omni cap? MKII with a cmc5 or 6 is lovely up close on an acoustic you don't need a pair really or if you want the "width" use a MKII and MK8 Fig 8 cap for MS on the schoeps.

Lovely and superb mono compatibilty etc
Old 12th January 2017
  #11
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Originally Posted by Neil Pickles View Post
Schoeps also have you considered if you are close mic'ing and the room is nice using an omni cap? MKII with a cmc5 or 6 is lovely up close on an acoustic you don't need a pair really or if you want the "width" use a MKII and MK8 Fig 8 cap for MS on the schoeps.

Lovely and superb mono compatibilty etc
My worry with an omni is picking up too much computer fan noise. My studio is treated but it isn't very big and when the fans kick in they're not dead silent.
Old 12th January 2017
  #12
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MIKEHARRIS's Avatar
you want stereo ? you got stereo...Royer SF24.
If Schoeps MSTC64
Old 12th January 2017
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTC111 View Post
My worry with an omni is picking up too much computer fan noise. My studio is treated but it isn't very big and when the fans kick in they're not dead silent.
I guess it depends but I used to record this way with a MacPro 2.5meters away it was cool.

Remember no proximity effect either you can so you can get close, and if the musician moves around lots you get less tonal changes depending on axis so you can drop in matched easier
Old 12th January 2017
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Pickles View Post
I guess it depends but I used to record this way with a MacPro 2.5meters away it was cool.

Remember no proximity effect either you can so you can get close, and if the musician moves around lots you get less tonal changes depending on axis so you can drop in matched easier
That reasoning is why I have the MK22 on my list. The pattern is a bit more open than cardioid but not as much as omni.
Old 12th January 2017
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTC111 View Post
That reasoning is why I have the MK22 on my list. The pattern is a bit more open than cardioid but not as much as omni.
MK22 if that's the wide cardiod one it's beautiful I just had a MK4 MK2 and MK8 but have used it (MK22) and loved it. Hence my omni only or Ms choice or ms with cardiod.

Don't rule out omnis oft overlooked
Old 12th January 2017
  #16
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jwh1192's Avatar
the CMC6 Mk4 .. i have a CMC4 MK4 and find that this capsule (mostly made imho for dialog) does not sound great on ALL acoustics .. some yes, some no .. my .02
Old 14th January 2017
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTC111 View Post
My worry with an omni is picking up too much computer fan noise. My studio is treated but it isn't very big and when the fans kick in they're not dead silent.
Folks who close mic an acoustic guitar in stereo usually do so because they want to minimize ambient noise or room anomalies. Although true omni mics do not have the proximity effect that cardioid mics do, they will tend to capture more of those ambient noises (such as your computer fan) or room anomalies. I suggested the Gefell M295 because it is a great mic sonically and it is specifically designed for close(r) micing.

As to close micing an acoustic with two mics, I find that many of the common mic placements just don't work as well when the mics are too close to the source (say, less than 12"). X/Y and ORTF seem to work the best, but only when compared to the results of other mic placements. Spaced pair placement really suffers when close miced (e.g., 12th fret and lower bout placements, maybe 20" apart). It's almost as if I'm recording two different instruments. A full pan of those two tracks really sounds artificial in stereo. M/S can also be funky two when close micing.

You might want to investigate installing a low noise fan in your computer. That way, you will have the freedom to put your mics in more places.
Old 14th January 2017
  #18
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All you need is one Neumann KM84, KM86 or U67.
Old 14th January 2017
  #19
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Arseny's Avatar
I can only comment to schoeps: if too close and the player/pick/finger/strings are also contributing to a bright sound, it all gets too bright to my ears.

I like those ac gtrs recorded by Al Schmidt with AUdio technica ribbons.
Old 14th January 2017
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
Folks who close mic an acoustic guitar in stereo usually do so because they want to minimize ambient noise or room anomalies. Although true omni mics do not have the proximity effect that cardioid mics do, they will tend to capture more of those ambient noises (such as your computer fan) or room anomalies. I suggested the Gefell M295 because it is a great mic sonically and it is specifically designed for close(r) micing.

As to close micing an acoustic with two mics, I find that many of the common mic placements just don't work as well when the mics are too close to the source (say, less than 12"). X/Y and ORTF seem to work the best, but only when compared to the results of other mic placements. Spaced pair placement really suffers when close miced (e.g., 12th fret and lower bout placements, maybe 20" apart). It's almost as if I'm recording two different instruments. A full pan of those two tracks really sounds artificial in stereo. M/S can also be funky two when close micing.

You might want to investigate installing a low noise fan in your computer. That way, you will have the freedom to put your mics in more places.
I installed low noise fans when I bought the computer years ago. I recently upgraded my RAM to 32gb (from 6gb) and now she runs hotter and sometimes the fans kick into high gear. They're not super loud but they're loud enough that I think anything wider than a cardioid pattern might ruin some tracks on occasion.

At this point, all I've read has me leaning towards the Gefell mics. If I had a better room and didn't have the fan noise, the MK22 might be the more intriguing choice.

Thanks for letting me know your experiences with mic setups. That will be useful.
Old 16th January 2017
  #21
Door # 7. I like my AKG 460 B's transformerless with a CK-62 DF capsule. That is a rare difuse field Omni with a slight rising top end. No EQ need.
Old 16th January 2017
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Door # 7. I like my AKG 460 B's transformerless with a CK-62 DF capsule. That is a rare difuse field Omni with a slight rising top end. No EQ need.
Hey Jim,

Are you still doing mic mods?

I have a pair of AKG 414 B-ULS that I would love to have your mod performed on if possible.
Old 19th January 2017
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nnajar View Post
is the 295 the cardioid with the lf rolloff? if so then I would tend to agree that would be a great option. schoeps mk4 is very good for roughly 16" out and further, and the mk22 is stunning for very close. I am a schoeps guy so my vote is for the mk22....
I'd say CMC6-mk22 is one of my all-time fav.
Old 19th January 2017
  #24
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G-Sun's Avatar
Why not try the cm3 ?
Old 19th January 2017
  #25
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cheu78's Avatar
I'd also suggest the shoeps..
I've had good results with an mk4, but the 22 could be a great capsule for ac gtrs.. Also with the shoeps you could always sell the capsules and get a different type.. If you buy new maybe your dealer will let you test some, then keep what you like best.

Also a great stereo ribbon (like the B&O bm5) about 3-4 feet in front could be great, but need a good room (another good alternative is the new Samar VL373).



Cheu
Old 19th January 2017
  #26
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Trev@Circle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTC111 View Post
Of the following mics, which would make for a better pair to close mic acoustic guitar?

Josephson e22S
Gefell M 295
Peluso P-28
Schoeps CMC6 MK4
Schoeps CMC6 MK22
Telefunken ELA M 260
I'm a big fan of the e22s. It is one of my very favourite mics. It's a real swiss army knife and almost never sounds bad. I have three of them. But for acoustic guitars, if I could only have one pair, the Gefell would get my money here.
Old 19th January 2017
  #27
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The Gefell is a beautiful mic, but I think the roll off/tilt toward highs and nickel membrane detail warrant a demo first.

MK22 is a great overall capsule. Might have to alter your stereo techniques a bit due to pattern, and less rejection could be an issue or not.

Yet the e22s has the nicest transient response IMO, perhaps because it has a transformer, whereas Schoeps and Gefell do not. In any case, the transient smoothness and harmonics are less honest or sterile, depending on one's point of view.

As noted has a rich proximity effect to work with or against, but also very good rejection. It will sound thicker and tolerate more sources than the others, such as electric instruments and amps. Therefore, my personal favorite, along with the Neumanns skybluerental listed.
Old 19th January 2017
  #28
Gear Addict
sE Electronics RN17 Neve designed. I know it's not one of the choices but when it comes to close micing acoustic guitars, if you were using one, you'd be thanking me.
Old 23rd January 2017
  #29
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In shootouts with any other mics I've tried, the AKG C460b with Jim William's mods are my favorites. Better than some seriously expensive gear that's out there.
Old 24th January 2017
  #30
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I have and deploy a Peluso P28 on a variety of instruments including Mandolin, Doboro, Violin and Guitar. When a stereo lead track is needed I will pair it with a Peluso P67 and have never been disappointed with the results. All flat top guitars need a sufficent distance to allow the diffused internal deflections to "Bloom": therefore close, direct over the sound hole, micing never takes place in my recordings.
Hugh
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