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QES Labs PAD-2 vs Burl B2 Bomber Stereo ADC shootout vid Digital Converters
Old 15th July 2017
  #181
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I'm currently most interested in finding out how much difference there would when tracking with a PAD-2 compared to the new Aurora(n). Does the PAD-2 introduce any additional latency in low group delay filter mode that would make it less ideal for recording?
Old 16th July 2017
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
lots of testing.the Pad2 is fantastic.looking forward to hearing it properly clocked to my system.
Also I don't think I'm going to sell my B2.
still great for lots of things.options are good.
it may not be the most open or transparent AD but it does something that no other AD does...adds focus,punch and weight to the mix.for certain types of material its just the best way to go.
and... could you finally test the pad-2s clocking your system and clocking the pad-2 by the Grimm ?
Old 16th July 2017
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babmusician View Post
and... could you finally test the pad-2s clocking your system and clocking the pad-2 by the Grimm ?
Yes sounds great.
Old 17th July 2017
  #184
Quote:
Originally Posted by babmusician View Post
and... could you finally test the pad-2s clocking your system and clocking the pad-2 by the Grimm ?
I can't find a unit that doesn't sound better with the Grimm clock attached, anyone???
Old 17th July 2017
  #185
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Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
I can't find a unit that doesn't sound better with the Grimm clock attached, anyone???
I agree
Old 18th July 2017
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
I can't find a unit that doesn't sound better with the Grimm clock attached, anyone???
Lynx Hilo does not sound any better with Grimm CC2 attached. It has a very slow locking PLL, so it actually does not benefit in any way from the superb lack of jitter in the CC2. The Hilo simply syncs to the speed of the CC2 clock in the long run (the number of pulses over time), but not to the individual slices of time.

In order to benefit most from an external clock you need a converter with a fast locking PLL. In case you have that, the difference with the CC2 added can be pretty remarkable.
Old 18th July 2017
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
I can't find a unit that doesn't sound better with the Grimm clock attached, anyone???
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
I agree
does the QES PAD-2 sounds better with Grimm?

I will get a demo of the Acousense AD soon and hope to like it... will report.
(and i will also test my uln8 clocked by acousense... i am not optimistic that the result satisfies me. let's see.... )

Last edited by Deleted User; 18th July 2017 at 09:08 PM..
Old 18th July 2017
  #188
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double post

Last edited by Deleted User; 18th July 2017 at 09:08 PM..
Old 19th July 2017
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
Lynx Hilo does not sound any better with Grimm CC2 attached. It has a very slow locking PLL, so it actually does not benefit in any way from the superb lack of jitter in the CC2. The Hilo simply syncs to the speed of the CC2 clock in the long run (the number of pulses over time), but not to the individual slices of time.

In order to benefit most from an external clock you need a converter with a fast locking PLL. In case you have that, the difference with the CC2 added can be pretty remarkable.
Did you also tested the Mutec MC-3 clock eventually?
I use mine with LP AD/DAs, but the diff with/without isnt that obvious as with my other converters. I would not hesitate to use them without external clocking as well. Wondering if the Grimm would be really that step forward?



With the Acousence I always had that slight feeling of hearing its transformers (which are remarkable clean), which is, in the end, a bit a matter of taste and chain. One of the very good converters out there for sure.
Old 19th July 2017
  #190
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i listened to the piano record done by acousense, lake people etc..
although the record does not sound very good, but it helps me to imagine that i also could love the lake people!
it would be very interesting for me to know how it compares to uln8 and acousence when the record has more to say...
Old 19th July 2017
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BearOnGuitar View Post
I'm currently most interested in finding out how much difference there would when tracking with a PAD-2 compared to the new Aurora(n). Does the PAD-2 introduce any additional latency in low group delay filter mode that would make it less ideal for recording?
PAD-2 Tracking direct to stereo, it's in the sub-ms range, I see no concern. Even in the same space, latency in one in-line converter will not be an issue.
Old 19th July 2017
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
Did you also tested the Mutec MC-3 clock eventually?
I use mine with LP AD/DAs, but the diff with/without isnt that obvious as with my other converters. I would not hesitate to use them without external clocking as well. Wondering if the Grimm would be really that step forward?

With the Acousence I always had that slight feeling of hearing its transformers (which are remarkable clean), which is, in the end, a bit a matter of taste and chain. One of the very good converters out there for sure.
I did not test the Mutec MC-3, but our own Jules Standen (owner of GS) did: MUTEC MC-3+ USB

The Grimm CC2 makes a clear difference with the Lake People F444 ADC: more natural and effortless AD-conversion. So smooth and naturally detailed, it sounds "analog". I'm not sure the PLL in the Lake People ADC RS 04 is the same as in the F444. At least the power supply isn't, although the AD converter path itself is. As we know power supplies can have a big impact on a sound as well. The PLL of the F444 reacts very well to the clock signal of the CC2, with immediate locking. It is fun switching between the internal clock and the CC2 and hearing the difference at once. This is not to say the LP doesn't already sound very good by itself, but using it with a CC2 is a relatively cheap way to upgrade to an excellent high end converter.

I have made master mixes of classical music on different converters, with and without CC2 and sent them off to the musicians, asking them which one they preferred. I didn't tell them anything about the differences and they had no idea that something like a clock in recording digitally even existed. Pretty easily they picked the masters made with Lake People F444 and Grimm CC2. (Other contenders were Mytek Stereo192 ADC and Lynx Hilo, with and without Grimm.)

By the way: when I clocked my Mytek 8x192, that I use as DA before the mixer, to the Grimm clock it was not appreciated: I had done the original mix without the Grimm on the Mytek and the sound difference was so big that a remix would have been needed in order to get the sound in the same ball park. With Grimm clock the sound simply sounded too transparent and "pristine". (Mind you: on the DA side of the Mytek.)

I have heard that sample with the Acousence and thought it sounded fine, but it was a digitisation of a pre-recorded analog tape, so the tape sound was also included in those tests. I would need to hear a direct conversion of an analog signal without the tape replay aspect in order to have a solid opinion on the Acousence.

Does anyone know which AD-chip is used in the QES PAD-2? And in the Acousence?
Old 20th July 2017
  #193
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Qes uses the PCM 4220
Old 20th July 2017
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deuc647 View Post
Qes uses the PCM 4220
A chip from 2006, so it's the passive circuitry in front of the chip and possibly the clocking that makes this such a remarkable new converter?
Old 20th July 2017
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
A chip from 2006, so it's the passive circuitry in front of the chip and possibly the clocking that makes this such a remarkable new converter?
No idea there, but burls b2 uses the AKM 5394 which is an old chip too but they make it sing. Guess you will have to try it out or maybe look elsewhere. Crane song is coming out with something i believe, but for pure recording to daw transfer, the Qes is pretty hard to beat.
Old 20th July 2017
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deuc647 View Post
No idea there, but burls b2 uses the AKM 5394 which is an old chip too but they make it sing. Guess you will have to try it out or maybe look elsewhere. Crane song is coming out with something i believe, but for pure recording to daw transfer, the Qes is pretty hard to beat.
My question was rhetorical, related to the point I was trying to make in this thread: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/12741481-post30.html A certain individual there claimed that "There have been vast improvements in a/d chips, filtering, AND in analog sections" while my thesis was that there has been no significant development in AD chips in the past ten/fifteen years and thus better sounding converters must have better analog sections and clocks, and thus it is also possible that older converters sound extremely good, provided that the design surrounding the AD conversion chip was very good. IMO there has not been much development in (possible) analog designs either in the past ten years, but only in better clock design. Sometimes "new converters" by converter makers are nothing more than a choice they made to put a better front end in an already existing converter.
Old 22nd July 2017
  #197
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Hi everyone,
I am searchin and searching but still can not find the answer. How would you connect Pad2 with RME UCX. Are there any possibilities to track pre's to the DAW through Pad2? Yes, but how to connect it? Also, how can I monitor what actually is going on with project through Pad2? Is it even possible? Can you track synts etc. and in the same time listen converted audio?
Old 23rd July 2017
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutek1990 View Post
Hi everyone,
I am searchin and searching but still can not find the answer. How would you connect Pad2 with RME UCX. Are there any possibilities to track pre's to the DAW through Pad2? Yes, but how to connect it? Also, how can I monitor what actually is going on with project through Pad2? Is it even possible? Can you track synts etc. and in the same time listen converted audio?
The Pad2 has an AES/EBU (XLR) output, and the UCX has a SPDIF (RCA) input. So you should be OK with a cable that has an XLR connector on one end and an RCA connector on the other. The RME UCX manual has information about this cable configuration. One of the nice things about RME interfaces is that they are robust enough to accommodate SPDIF and AES/EBU levels interchangeably.

Alternatively, you can get the optional Pad2 optical digital output and connect to the optical digital input on the UCX. I don't have a Pad2, but I would think that the optional optical output would be considerable more expensive than a simple cable.
Old 23rd July 2017
  #199
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Thank's!

Ok, but still, how can I monitor stereo out? Is it going to work through RME's TotalMix?

Once again, I want to hear PAD's AD on the monitor's while mixing and tracking. How this works? :-)
Old 23rd July 2017
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutek1990 View Post
Thank's!

Ok, but still, how can I monitor stereo out? Is it going to work through RME's TotalMix?

Once again, I want to hear PAD's AD on the monitor's while mixing and tracking. How this works? :-)
Yes, TotalMix is capable of just about any routing imaginable.

You would click on the TotalMix output that's routed to your monitors, which would be on the bottom row of the TotalMix display. Then adjust the volume on the SPDIF input, which would be on the top row of the TotalMix display. That would adjust the volume of the PAD's digital output that gets routed to your speakers, with negligible latency.
Old 24th July 2017
  #201
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Hi, yes, I can route it nicely and easily.

Another thing is, what if I have an outboard gear?
Do I need DAC then?
Old 24th July 2017
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
I can't find a unit that doesn't sound better with the Grimm clock attached, anyone???
Hey Doc, do you think it would make a difference with an IZ ADA II? not sure if you've tested it with IZ. Im just starting to look into an external clock.
Old 24th July 2017
  #203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooleyocity View Post
Hey Doc, do you think it would make a difference with an IZ ADA II? not sure if you've tested it with IZ. Im just starting to look into an external clock.
Yes, I have used the Grimm CC1 with a RADAR-V Nyquist machine. Identical converters and clock to the ADA. It make a LARGE difference to a 24 track recording hitting a console. WAY better. Even Barry told me it would make a difference.
Old 24th July 2017
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
Yes, I have used the Grimm CC1 with a RADAR-V Nyquist machine. Identical converters and clock to the ADA. It make a LARGE difference to a 24 track recording hitting a console. WAY better. Even Barry told me it would make a difference.
Cool, that's great to know! I might have to look into it. I am sure the cumulative effect is great with multiple tracks right? Is there a qualitative difference between the CC1 & CC2?
Old 24th July 2017
  #205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooleyocity View Post
Cool, that's great to know! I might have to look into it. I am sure the cumulative effect is great with multiple tracks right? Is there a qualitative difference between the CC1 & CC2?
BIG difference!
CC1 is the same design as CC2, just more affordable package.
Old 18th August 2017
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
BIG difference!
CC1 is the same design as CC2, just more affordable package.
This sounds like a contradiction to me. Is there a qualitative difference between the two models, when they are the same design?
Old 18th August 2017
  #207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
BIG difference!
CC1 is the same design as CC2, just more affordable package.
With 14 less W/C outputs. How would one get around that?
Old 18th August 2017
  #208
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Clearly, the CC2 is the more affordable package. The clock engine in both clocks is the same, but the CC1 has a whole lot more functions. CC2 is a small box with just wordclock that you can also easily take out on a remote recording (which is how I use it outside the studio).
Old 18th August 2017
  #209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumi View Post
This sounds like a contradiction to me. Is there a qualitative difference between the two models, when they are the same design?
Hi Rumi,
Since you are dealer, I ask that you contact the manufacturer yourself.
Old 18th August 2017
  #210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G View Post
With 14 less W/C outputs. How would one get around that?
Buying a CC1 instead hehe
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